Alliance Dalaran

[Chonar]

Fact of the matter is that Blizzard would have no reason to make note of "now this person has become a successor" unless they plan on having a reason for that factoid to exist in the first place, e.g. Rhonin being killed, vanishing, or lost between worlds somewhere.

Unless they're red herringing us something hard. Yes, that's now a verb.

[Deleted]

I don't understand why Dalaran is being involved. Kul Tiras is tailor made for this expansion. Naval warfare, attitude in line with King Chin, etc..

[Florena]

I don't understand why Dalaran is being involved. Kul Tiras is tailor made for this expansion. Naval warfare, attitude in line with King Chin, etc..

I think the naval warfare aspect isn't that big. Yes, it's a naval battle that leads to use landing on Pandaria but beyond that, it's all ground based once we're there as far as I know. And I don't know that all of KT is neccisarily in line with Daelin Proudmoore's point of views.

[Frontenac]

Successor =/= new ruler.

Kirin Tor; the ruling/advising counsel of Dalaran, are simply appointing the next in-line should something happen to Rhonin. Not that I would be sorrow stricken if something were to happen to him. Beside that, they're not going to take Dalaran away, there's a quest or two tied there that wouldn't make sense having else where.

Why would they appoint a successor before Rhonin dies or steps down? This is just useless. If something happens to Rhonin, the remaining members of the Six just have to assemble and appoint a new leader at this moment. There's no reason to do that before. It's just as useless as the Conclave choosing the next Pope before the present Pope dies.

[Urti]

I don't understand why Dalaran is being involved. Kul Tiras is tailor made for this expansion. Naval warfare, attitude in line with King Chin, etc..

This. Why bend over backwards to force Dalaran to fit, when Kul Tiras is a better fit with less effort? Doesn't make sense.

[Falrinn]

Why would they appoint a successor before Rhonin dies or steps down? This is just useless. If something happens to Rhonin, the remaining members of the Six just have to assemble and appoint a new leader at this moment. There's no reason to do that before. It's just as useless as the Conclave choosing the next Pope before the present Pope dies.

Well it makes sense to have someone who can step up to the plate on a moments notice. However ultimately I agree that Blizzard wouldn't make Jaina the successor to Rhonin unless they planned on Jaina leading the Kirin Tor (and by extension Dalaran) in the very short term. If they didn't they would of simply had her join the Kirin Tor, and have them adopt an anti-Garrosh, if not anti-Horde, stance.

---------- Post added 2012-07-19 at 06:38 PM ----------

This. Why bend over backwards to force Dalaran to fit, when Kul Tiras is a better fit with less effort? Doesn't make sense.

Honestly I don't see MoP as being much more of a seafaring expansion then WotLK was. We need ships to get to the new continent, but the overwhelming majority of the actual content and fighting is on land.

[Urti]

Honestly I don't see MoP as being much more of a seafaring expansion then WotLK was. We need ships to get to the new continent, but the overwhelming majority of the actual content and fighting is on land.

Not so much because of the naval theme, but because she has familial ties to Kul Tiras that are just as strong as her, I guess "professional", ties to the Kirin Tor. She finds herself in a position of military necessity that she, and the Kirin Tor, are both uncomfortable in and unaccustomed to. The kind of confrontational situation that Kul Tiras was famously successful for, war. I just think it would make more sense for her to seek out the aid of the battle-hardened warrior kingdom instead of the isolationist neutral wizards when it comes to matters of war.

[Florena]

Not so much because of the naval theme, but because she has familial ties to Kul Tiras that are just as strong as her, I guess "professional", ties to the Kirin Tor. She finds herself in a position of military necessity that she, and the Kirin Tor, are both uncomfortable in and unaccustomed to. The kind of confrontational situation that Kul Tiras was famously successful for, war. I just think it would make more sense for her to seek out the aid of the battle-hardened warrior kingdom instead of the isolationist neutral wizards when it comes to matters of war.

I think answers will come in Tides of War. Besides KT might not think kindly of her after she let her father be killed. And maybe blizz is saving KT for a south seas expansion or something, with Undermine, Ny'alotha and N'zoth, Azshara etc.

Tides of War and the circumstances that pair her up with Kalecgos will likely introduce her into the Kirin Tor stuff. And don't forget, that while Jaina was from KT, she also spent years in Daralarn and was even Antonidas' apprentice, she's hardly a stranger to Dalaran even if she hasn't lived there since WC 3. Jaina also states that 'when this is over, they (her men) are the only family I have left.' when it came time to stand down and let her father be killed. So I doubt she has strong ties lingering there.

[Frontenac]

I really doubt jaina will risk a civil war in the kirin tor (hey that rhymes lol) by kicking out the sunreavers and alienating alot of kirin tor members that are belfs just cause they support the horde

Really sounds to me that shes pissed but will get over it

Regarding her being rhonin successor what does that mean exactly does that mean she already is the successor or just next in line when rhonin either retires or meets his maker which could be years away

That would be a short civil war. Like really short. Because as far as I know, the Sunreavers are just a faction recently accepted in Dalaran, which population is still mostly human with some high elves, and gnomes. The Kirin Tor itself has a limit of 120 members, if Wowpedia is to be believed, and it takes time to be admitted into this institution. So even if there are several Sunreavers in the Kirin Tor, they are still outnumbered by the other members. Also, Dalaran is still a human nation, previously part of the Alliance, so a lot of humans probably still distrusted the Horde. Therefore, it would not be that difficult to boot the Sunreavers and their Horde friends out of Dalaran.

[Florena]

That would be a short civil war. Like really short. Because as far as I know, the Sunreavers are just a faction recently accepted in Dalaran, which population is still mostly human with some high elves, and gnomes. The Kirin Tor itself has a limit of 120 members, if Wowpedia is to be believed, and it takes time to be admitted into this institution. So even if there are several Sunreavers in the Kirin Tor, they are still outnumbered by the other members. Also, Dalaran is still a human nation, previously part of the Alliance, so a lot of humans probably still distrusted the Horde. Therefore, it would not be that difficult to boot the Sunreavers and their Horde friends out of Dalaran.

I'm afraid that 120 membership thing comes from the Alliance Player's Guide, an RPG book no longer considered canon. The Kirin Tor in canon lore to the best of my knowledge has always been a small group, numbered at 6 wherever it's given a number.

[Falrinn]

I'm afraid that 120 membership thing comes from the Alliance Player's Guide, an RPG book no longer considered canon. The Kirin Tor in canon lore to the best of my knowledge has always been a small group, numbered at 6 wherever it's given a number.

The Kirin Tor's ruling council is called "The Six", which is a little different from the Kirin Tor in general. Regardless of how big the Kirin Tor technically is, it's extremely likely the majority of Dalaran's population would follow the Kirin Tor's lead should the Sunreavers betray Dalaran. The Sunrevers consist of at best a quarter of Dalaran's population, and who knows how many will feel more loyal to Dalaran then to the Horde (the Blood Elves are not exactly all "Lok'tar O'gar" if you get what I'm saying).

[Florena]

The Kirin Tor's ruling council is called "The Six", which is a little different from the Kirin Tor in general. Regardless of how big the Kirin Tor technically is, it's extremely likely the majority of Dalaran's population would follow the Kirin Tor's lead should the Sunreavers betray Dalaran. The Sunrevers consist of at best a quarter of Dalaran's population, and who knows how many will feel more loyal to Dalaran then to the Horde (the Blood Elves are not exactly all "Lok'tar O'gar" if you get what I'm saying).

Either way, that book is non canon.

[Brendanb]

Either way, that book is non canon.

But the ruling council IS cannon, and is NOT the Kirin Tor in itself.

---------- Post added 2012-07-22 at 01:31 AM ----------

That would be a short civil war. Like really short. Because as far as I know, the Sunreavers are just a faction recently accepted in Dalaran, which population is still mostly human with some high elves, and gnomes. The Kirin Tor itself has a limit of 120 members, if Wowpedia is to be believed, and it takes time to be admitted into this institution. So even if there are several Sunreavers in the Kirin Tor, they are still outnumbered by the other members. Also, Dalaran is still a human nation, previously part of the Alliance, so a lot of humans probably still distrusted the Horde. Therefore, it would not be that difficult to boot the Sunreavers and their Horde friends out of Dalaran.

The Sunreavers are all blood elves, and they're also the ones who developed the bomb dropped on Theramore. If Jaina DOES become the leader of the Kirin Tor there's no way they'll stay a part of it. The Sunreavers are the only "Horde" presence in Dalaran, and the Kirin Tor struck a neutral alliance with them to fight the Blue Dragonflight. Since the Sunreavers are now siding fully with the horde, the rest of the Kirin Tor has no reason to NOT return to the Alliance.

[Kyulan]

My thought is that IF the Kirin Tor does go neutral with Jaina as their leader it's possible that it does not affect Dalaran. Even though Dalaran is built by the magisters back in the day pretty much only magi lived there too. Things have changed a lot since then and one simple-ish solution would be that Kirin Tor would abandon Dalaran and leave it for Silver Covenant and Sunreavers. They could just locate themselves in the Mage Quarters in Stormwind. Perhaps at later Mists of Pandaria patches when they're adding the new promised stuff to Pandaria one could be a Kirin Tor base were they wage war against the Horde.

I agree with many posters here that actually evicting Horde from Dalaran would really crash the WOTLK questing as well as having duplicates of the same city in Azeroth would be silly too. It's not the same as seeing Kael'thas or Kalecgos twice in the game.

PS. I only went through around 20 first pages but I did not see anyone with this idea yet. Let's not get angry at each other because every single person in this thread is just speculating.

[Trassk]

Something I realized, and what really pisses me off with all this.

I have been against the whole Garrosh as warchief and all he does from the start, I've hated seeing what the horde has become under him and just long to see this chapter close. But for some reason, it feels like blizzard isn't so much giving my horde characters a choice, rather we've been put on a bus and told we need to do whatever we're told and agree with it, or we're be thrown off the bus.

By that I mean, the best times of lore for me was when the horde was under Thrall, when Jaina was the ruler of theramore, when dalaran opened in wrath and allowed horde into it, when we were fighting against the scourge and demons and shit, and it felt like this was something awesome we were all doing.

Now though, it kind of feels like this:

Devs "Garrosh is going to blow up theramore and you horde are responsible for it!"
Me "wtf? I don't agree with any of that, I don't want to blow it up, you forcing me into it "
Devs "You horde wanted Garrosh as warchief and now see the mistakes of that shortsightedness"
Me "NO, I DIDN'T want him as Warchief, I said it was a crap idea from the start"
Devs "And now Jaina will rule dalaran and kick all horde from it because of that shortsightedness!"
Me "Are you ****ing kidding?!, I didn't want any of this crap to happen, you forced me to follow along with it!"

See, this is how it feels, I don't want to blow up theramore, I don't like seeing the horde turn to freaking lord of the rings bad guys, I like dalaran, and yet now have to endure being thought of as a baddie because some lackluster developers can't make something more versatile for the developing lore.

[Falrinn]

My thought is that IF the Kirin Tor does go neutral with Jaina as their leader it's possible that it does not affect Dalaran. Even though Dalaran is built by the magisters back in the day pretty much only magi lived there too. Things have changed a lot since then and one simple-ish solution would be that Kirin Tor would abandon Dalaran and leave it for Silver Covenant and Sunreavers. They could just locate themselves in the Mage Quarters in Stormwind. Perhaps at later Mists of Pandaria patches when they're adding the new promised stuff to Pandaria one could be a Kirin Tor base were they wage war against the Horde.

I agree with many posters here that actually evicting Horde from Dalaran would really crash the WOTLK questing as well as having duplicates of the same city in Azeroth would be silly too. It's not the same as seeing Kael'thas or Kalecgos twice in the game.

PS. I only went through around 20 first pages but I did not see anyone with this idea yet. Let's not get angry at each other because every single person in this thread is just speculating.

I would be really odd for the Kirin Tor to abandon Dalaran considering that they are the city's rightful inhabitants. We also need to consider that the Kirin Tor are probably the only thing keeping the city from devolving into civil war right now, with them removed from the equation and the Horde/Alliance conflict as heated as it is, the streets will run red with blood the instant they leave. And if the Sunrevears come out on top, they would of handed their new enemy one of the most significant centers of magical power on Azeroth.

More then likely the Kirin Tor will remain in control of Dalaran but leave it in Northrend, and will simply establish a field base on Pandaria. If need be, a "modern" version of Dalaran can appear in a scenario or quest event. I don't think there would be any need for a large number of Kirin Tor Mages to show up in Stormwind, but they could always have an ambassador or two.

[Alewen]

Something I realized, and what really pisses me off with all this.

I have been against the whole Garrosh as warchief and all he does from the start, I've hated seeing what the horde has become under him and just long to see this chapter close. But for some reason, it feels like blizzard isn't so much giving my horde characters a choice, rather we've been put on a bus and told we need to do whatever we're told and agree with it, or we're be thrown off the bus.

By that I mean, the best times of lore for me was when the horde was under Thrall, when Jaina was the ruler of theramore, when dalaran opened in wrath and allowed horde into it, when we were fighting against the scourge and demons and shit, and it felt like this was something awesome we were all doing.

Now though, it kind of feels like this:

Devs "Garrosh is going to blow up theramore and you horde are responsible for it!"
Me "wtf? I don't agree with any of that, I don't want to blow it up, you forcing me into it "
Devs "You horde wanted Garrosh as warchief and now see the mistakes of that shortsightedness"
Me "NO, I DIDN'T want him as Warchief, I said it was a crap idea from the start"
Devs "And now Jaina will rule dalaran and kick all horde from it because of that shortsightedness!"
Me "Are you ****ing kidding?!, I didn't want any of this crap to happen, you forced me to follow along with it!"

See, this is how it feels, I don't want to blow up theramore, I don't like seeing the horde turn to freaking lord of the rings bad guys, I like dalaran, and yet now have to endure being thought of as a baddie because some lackluster developers can't make something more versatile for the developing lore.

You have to look though at the horde's creation though. It formed because a shaman communed with a demon and though he regretted what he did, his apprentice continued what he started. The horde then entered Azeroth for 1 reason and 1 reason only: Genocide of all races of azeroth. They came to conquer the entire planet. They conquered stormwind. Almost conquered all of the eastern kingdoms.

But because of infighting, they were defeated. However, the alliance, showing mercy, chose to put the horde into interment camps to try and breed out their blood curse. Even they saw that the horde were only doing what was programmed into them by demons. Now there was a bad apple human, who raised Thrall in hopes of conquering Lordaeron with a new horde under his command. It backfired and the horde reformed with a new leader.

But even then, the new horde still had much of the same attitudes of the old horde. Evidence is when they went to Kalimdor and started founding Durotar. Durotar belonged to the quilboar. Rather than try to find a peaceful way to coexist with the quilboar, what did the orcs do? They slaughtered them and took their lands. The quilboar probably would of made an interesting horde race. Instead they chose to genocide the quilboar to seize all their lands. What's more, they also took in the forsaken, who were just as bad as the scourge.

Now though, we got Garrosh, she is much like the past horde warchiefs. He's declared that all of Kalimdor is to belong to the horde. And most orcs do follow him loyally. It is part of the story. It is part of their history. You can't sugar coat the horde's past. They are, from the time they were conceived in the original warcraft rts, a brutal savage race bent on conquest. Perhaps if they had not been freed so soon, that nature of theirs could of been bred out of them. But then that wouldn't produce any story for world of warcraft.

Blizzard is a story teller here. You don't really make a call on someone else's story, how it should play out, etc. Only time will tell, once Garrosh is defeated, what happens to the horde. But I think in this story, the alliance should do as the UN Did at the end of World War 2. But we, the readers of the story, have to wait till that chapter opens up.

[happydude]

Definitely an interesting opinion

[Trassk]

You have to look though at the horde's creation though. It formed because a shaman communed with a demon and though he regretted what he did, his apprentice continued what he started. The horde then entered Azeroth for 1 reason and 1 reason only: Genocide of all races of azeroth. They came to conquer the entire planet. They conquered stormwind. Almost conquered all of the eastern kingdoms.

But because of infighting, they were defeated. However, the alliance, showing mercy, chose to put the horde into interment camps to try and breed out their blood curse. Even they saw that the horde were only doing what was programmed into them by demons. Now there was a bad apple human, who raised Thrall in hopes of conquering Lordaeron with a new horde under his command. It backfired and the horde reformed with a new leader.

But even then, the new horde still had much of the same attitudes of the old horde. Evidence is when they went to Kalimdor and started founding Durotar. Durotar belonged to the quilboar. Rather than try to find a peaceful way to coexist with the quilboar, what did the orcs do? They slaughtered them and took their lands. The quilboar probably would of made an interesting horde race. Instead they chose to genocide the quilboar to seize all their lands. What's more, they also took in the forsaken, who were just as bad as the scourge.

Now though, we got Garrosh, she is much like the past horde warchiefs. He's declared that all of Kalimdor is to belong to the horde. And most orcs do follow him loyally. It is part of the story. It is part of their history. You can't sugar coat the horde's past. They are, from the time they were conceived in the original warcraft rts, a brutal savage race bent on conquest. Perhaps if they had not been freed so soon, that nature of theirs could of been bred out of them. But then that wouldn't produce any story for world of warcraft.

Blizzard is a story teller here. You don't really make a call on someone else's story, how it should play out, etc. Only time will tell, once Garrosh is defeated, what happens to the horde. But I think in this story, the alliance should do as the UN Did at the end of World War 2. But we, the readers of the story, have to wait till that chapter opens up.

I dunno where your getting this theme of the alliance captured and caged the orcs in the hopes of breeding out the corruption to them, they did it because rather then slaughtering them, they found containing them had more uses. They also sold the orcs as slaves to buyers and masters, that many orcs who were used as slaves remembered, such as in cycle of hatred, one orc that was treated as a slave well his masters crapped on him for fun.

Your also telling me a story of drawing all the negative points of the horde like you think they deserve to be thought of as the bad guys, yet not addressing the good they have done too in fighting off the legion, the scourge and more besides, how they overcame there corruption, and was still pursued by the alliance as monsters.

The horde that have sided with factions like the cenarion circle, earthen ring, the sha'tar, shattrath, dalaran, the argent crusade, all have worked with these factions for the right reasons, so why would the horde be made to feel like the bad guys for all the good they've done just because of the alliances age old grudge against them?

[Deleted]

I dunno where your getting this theme of the alliance captured and caged the orcs in the hopes of breeding out the corruption to them, they did it because rather then slaughtering them, they found containing them had more uses. They also sold the orcs as slaves to buyers and masters, that many orcs who were used as slaves remembered, such as in cycle of hatred, one orc that was treated as a slave well his masters crapped on him for fun.?

This was indeed Terenas' intention when building the internment camps. He was hoping that orcs would one day lose their bloodlust and could be released. The illegal enslaving and mistreatment of orcs in the camps didn't come till much later, when they had fallen under lethargy. This made their containing much easier, and to save expenses, the amount of guards was greatly scaled down. This gave the remaining guards and their bosses more power and less checks on their activities, which translated into corruption and mistreatment of their charges.
While slavery of orc, although illegal, happened, it's unclear to me how it could be more than a few individual cases. What could have been the use of a lethargic orc? Not good for fighting nor working.