Arms PvE in Mists of Pandaria - a Review.

[Zellviren]

This post is my review on the current state of Arms on the MoP beta, taken from my blog at Unwavering Sentinel. It’s exclusively dealing with the spec in PvE (as in, dungeons and raids) and makes no attempt to address PvP – that’s a whole other topic.

Please, if you have a PvP discussion, don’t use this thread.

Thanks.

A quick overview.

As far as raiding goes, Arms warriors are looking like a dependable and resilient DPS class with strong mobility, a widely varied toolkit and an obscene amount of available control. Single-target damage will always remain competitive, and our AoE potential looks to be above average depending on talents and encounter. In short, Arms warriors are going to be valued raid members assuming they’re handled by skilled players with solid judgement.

The current cost of this new found utility is twofold:

1) An overly clunky rotation and bloated repertoire of damage cooldowns.
2) An apparent lack of legitimate PvP viability for at least another season.

But with that said, if raiding is your thing and performance is your main criteria, there is no reason whatsoever why you can’t be playing Arms. Naturally, it has to be added, that we’re still in beta – the flaws are still subject to change and, hopefully, they’ll see their due attention.

But let’s get to it.

The “Good”.

First of all, our damage will be fine. Seriously, it will. There’s a lot of concern about damage sources and how certain attacks hit like wet noodles, but I see no reason for the very good DPS alignment of Cataclysm to discontinue. For the most part, playing Arms hasn’t changed all that much. Colossus Smash, Mortal Strike, Slam, Overpower and Heroic Strike all have their spaces on your hotbars and all work roughly the same way they do now. That said, Mortal Strike is now where the vast majority of your rage comes from, meaning that there is absolutely no debate about it being your number one priority. Colossus Smash comes in a comfortable second, almost regardless of situation. Slam and Overpower are a little awkward due to the secondary proc on Overpower and the rage cost of Slam though, technically, Slam is the better button. Even were Overpower to critically strike 100% of the time, Slam would still be better and that makes it your rage spender.

The real key to Arms DPS at the moment, however, is the utility. Both in single target and AoE, talents allow for a variety of approach that is utterly alien to anyone who’s played the spec previously. For single targets, things like Shockwave and Stormbolt are probably going to take priority in lower gear levels thanks to them filling up GCD’s; that said, as gear improves and rage comes in more freely, those GCD’s will be filled up by Slam and that’ll allow the warrior to start looking at talents like Dragon Roar or Bloodbath. For AoE, the spec has options between sustained DPS (Shockwave), burst AoE (Bladestorm) or a relatively accessible AoE nuke in Dragon Roar. Add this to Sweeping Strikes, Whirlwind and Thunderclap and our potential for valid and reliable AoE damage, regardless of encounter, is really quite high.

Mobility, always a fabled part of the warrior toolkit, remains very strong if slightly laboured to past incarnations. Charge remains our stalwart friend for getting about, but the loss of stance-restriction on Intervene allows it to be used far more freely than before. With us also running glyph options to lower the cooldown on Heroic Leap, warriors will remain capable of getting into position at a faster rate than most other classes.

But then, there’s our available control. Juggernaut is close to mandatory, but a 20-second Charge that stuns from Warbringer could be situationally powerful depending on the encounter. But it doesn’t stop there; Pummel remains baseline and our primary interrupt, but Disrupting Shout is our likely choice from its tier for PvE which is a powerful AoE silence. We can choose from Shockwave or Dragon Roar, both powerful stuns and potentially more useful in different situations, but we also have the option of using Stormbolt if we really want to nail casting mobs to the floor. Piercing Howl or Bloodbath gives us the ability to kite very effectively, and a 60 second cooldown on (a buffed) Intimidating Shout is another little benefit to toss into the bag.

Lastly for what’s good about Arms warriors (and DPS warriors in general), there’s our raid utility; and it’s taken something of a power infusion for Mists of Pandaria. We’ve retained Rallying Cry which, though often scoffed at, has allowed raids to work through encounters and get them down reliably. But more than that, we’ve also picked up a DPS raid cooldown in the form of the Skull Banner, something that will stack nicely with Bloodlust for even more pew pew from your raid mates. The thing is, that’s not all. In our fifth tier, we’ve netted ourselves powerful tank externals in the form of Safeguard or Vigilance, and these could easily be used to save lives that would otherwise be lost or as part of an overarching encounter strategy.

We’ve often worried about our raid utility, and come the expansion we’re going to have a defensive raid cooldown, an offensive raid cooldown and a tank external in amongst our other traditional tools. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but no DPS class can make such an in-combat boast, save warriors.

The tide has quite possibly turned.

The “Bad”.

As is to be expected, it ain’t all roses.

Many talents remain either obvious picks, or really obvious kippers. Juggernaut is by far and away the best talent in the first tier, Enraged Regeneration is far stronger than its counterparts and Disrupting Shout is close to mandatory for PvE. Second Wind, Mass Spell Reflection and Avatar are all heavily leaning toward PvP, while Doube-Time (particularly) and Staggering Shout are simply too weak and/or situational to be considered. There isn’t a tier with nothing of use in it for an Arms warrior, but there are some tiers where decisions are made for you and that’s a real shame.

Secondly, our baseline DPS cooldowns remain individually weak. Recklessness is nowhere near strong enough to justify a five-minute absence after use, while Deadly Calm is just… I don’t even know. It’s a rage-saver masquerading as a cooldown, and that’s just not a compelling place to be. Reducing the cooldown on Recklessness to three minutes so that it lines up with other major talents properly, and removing Deadly Calm altogether, would be the simplest and most effective way of sorting this out in my opinion. Berserker Rage is practically a DPS cooldown in and of itself in the latest build, so adding a level 90 talent into the mix means Deadly Calm simply isn’t needed.

Our third bad point is Heroic Strike and/or Cleave; there simply isn’t a decent place for them yet and, worse, they’re messing with design intent. If we’re prioritizing Slam, as we should be, there’s never going to be the rage for Heroic Strike use. Even in an AoE situation, Thunderclap and Whirlwind will be a better use of rage than Cleave, and in a two-mob situation we have Sweeping Strikes. It’s starting to get a little silly when talents such as Taste for Blood or cooldowns like Deadly Calm need to be reworked for the sole purpose of keeping around these attacks.

Honestly, it’s time to retire them. Other rage spenders have taken their place for all three specs and it’s time to move on. I suppose we could rework ‘zerker stance to be “the AoE” stance, similar to the paladin seal of cleave, but that still leaves no room for Heroic Strike.

The “Ugly”.

It’s a tragedy that there had to be an ugly in all of this, particularly the source of it; it’s the Arms rotation.

I’ll need to try out the latest build to see how it feels with rage, but we’re currently sat in a place where every Mortal Strike needs three GCD’s to follow it or we end up with gaps. I’m comfortable with talents changing in value as an expansion moves on, I really am, but I’m not comfortable with talents such as Shockwave or Stormbolt feeling mandatory just to plug holes. Hell, I recently started to consider the glyph of Hoarse Voice mandatory purely because it allowed me to fill more GCD’s with Battle Shout.

But that’s only half of the problem.

The other half is the interplay between Slam and Taste for Blood. At the moment, all it takes is one proc of this talent, which you can fish for, and Heroic Strike becomes a better use of your rage than Slam does. This assumes you have something else to hit, invariably Overpower, but it doesn’t alter the fact that it relegates Slam to being superfluous. Unfortunately, Slam fills a GCD while Heroic Strike doesn’t… Meaning that playing optimally makes the rotation even more ugly and clunky than it is otherwise. If Slam is supposed to be the primary rage burner, which it is, this dynamic is going to have to change otherwise it’s going to make Arms extraordinarily frustrating to play, and probably far too punitive.

Concluding.

Ultimately, this post is an attempt to highlight where Arms actually has a lot of potential for the upcoming expansion. Of course, much of this post is talent-talk; Fury will be equally capable of pulling off the things I’ve been speaking about. But the point I’m trying to make is that the doom and gloom isn’t necessarily a fair representation of how Arms is coming along. Yes, there remain some problems (some of which, like Taste for Blood, are significant) with the spec and that’s likely always going to be the case.

But that doesn’t mean that there isn’t hope. And if I, a player with a habit of moaning endlessly, can see the light at the end of the tunnel, there’s hope for anyone.

The time for quiet optimism is here.

[Lunaeis]

How are fury and arms balancing at lvl 90 in regards to pve dps?

[Zellviren]

How are fury and arms balancing at lvl 90 in regards to pve dps?

I haven't really tested them in comparison to each other, but I think Arms is slightly ahead at the moment.

[HollerTH]

I am trying to understand how Juggernaut is so much better than double time?

[Ripfull]

I haven't really tested them in comparison to each other, but I think Arms is slightly ahead at the moment.

SMF is by FAR superior to TG and arms (with arms being the lowest)

- Numbers from tests (lvl 90 dummy with full pvp gear, lvl 90)

Arms: 56kdps
TG: 64kdps
SMF: 68.5kdps

[HollerTH]

SMF is by FAR superior to TG and arms (with arms being the lowest)

- Numbers from tests (lvl 90 dummy with full pvp gear, lvl 90)

Arms: 56kdps
TG: 64kdps
SMF: 68.5kdps

Haven't looked into details on Hit and stuff for Mop since it could all change but I would think Fury would get hurt more by using pvp gear than arms would.

[Ripfull]

Haven't looked into details on Hit and stuff for Mop since it could all change but I would think Fury would get hurt more by using pvp gear than arms would.

Would you look at the numbers? Flat 12.5k dps more? And u think arms is better, comon.

Ask all beta testers, fury is the best spec (SMF) by far!

---------- Post added 2012-07-19 at 11:11 PM ----------

Would you look at the numbers? Flat 12.5k dps more? And u think arms is better, comon.

Ask all beta testers, fury is the best spec (SMF) by far!

Numbers speak for themselves.
- yes i have played arms whole cata, yes i have played arms on beta and know the rotation right. This is just how it is right now.

Also, these numbers are nothing compared to shammies, locks and hunters

[Zellviren]

SMF is by FAR superior to TG and arms (with arms being the lowest)

- Numbers from tests (lvl 90 dummy with full pvp gear, lvl 90)

Arms: 56kdps
TG: 64kdps
SMF: 68.5kdps

That's something of a surprise, thanks for the numbers - have you done any tests in PvE gear and which talents are you using for each spec?

My Arms talents were Juggernaut, Enraged Regeneration, Disrupting Shout, Shockwave, Vigilance and Bloodbath.

---------- Post added 2012-07-19 at 10:38 PM ----------

I am trying to understand how Juggernaut is so much better than double time?

At its most baseline, Juggernaut lets you Charge five times per minute and Double-Time only allows you to Charge a maximum of four. If you use both iterations of Charge, you need to wait on the first to refresh before the second starts its 20 second cooldown. In other words, if you use both right after another, you're waiting 40 seconds before you can "Double-Time" again. If that doesn't sound bad enough, if you use the first Charge prior to both refreshing, the second Charge will never refresh.

It's absolutely terrible.

[Ripfull]

That's something of a surprise, thanks for the numbers - have you done any tests in PvE gear and which talents are you using for each spec?

My Arms talents were Juggernaut, Enraged Regeneration, Disrupting Shout, Shockwave, Vigilance and Bloodbath.

---------- Post added 2012-07-19 at 10:38 PM ----------



At its most baseline, Juggernaut lets you Charge five times per minute and Double-Time only allows you to Charge a maximum of four. If you use both iterations of Charge, you need to wait on the first to refresh before the second starts its 20 second cooldown. In other words, if you use both right after another, you're waiting 40 seconds before you can "Double-Time" again. If that doesn't sound bad enough, if you use the first Charge prior to both refreshing, the second Charge will never refresh.

It's absolutely terrible.

Well currently pve gear can't fully obtainable (afaik)
Also the pvp gear is free.

Also also: since we have really bad rage regen now, SMF will be favored even more.

[Zellviren]

Well currently pve gear can't fully obtainable (afaik)
Also the pvp gear is free.

Also also: since we have really bad rage regen now, SMF will be favored even more.

I was hoping you'd managed to pick up a full questing set but, no probs, it can be tested once pre-mades are released (I'm assuming they will be eventually).

With the rage generation buff expected in the next build, Arms damage will increase significantly due to otherwise gapped GCD's being filled by Slam. This will allow Shockwave to be subbed out for Dragon Roar which will be another fairly unambiguous DPS increase for Arms in my testing, so we'll see how that goes.

As hinted in the OP, though; there's not that much point debating damage. It'll be fairly even upon ship and everything seems well within the realms of tuning.

[Ripfull]

I was hoping you'd managed to pick up a full questing set but, no probs, it can be tested once pre-mades are released (I'm assuming they will be eventually).

With the rage generation buff expected in the next build, Arms damage will increase significantly due to otherwise gapped GCD's being filled by Slam. This will allow Shockwave to be subbed out for Dragon Roar which will be another fairly unambiguous DPS increase for Arms in my testing, so we'll see how that goes.

As hinted in the OP, though; there's not that much point debating damage. It'll be fairly even upon ship and everything seems well within the realms of tuning.

You do know that it's a nerf right?
- and no, as it is now - arms wont get near fury (except from AoE)

---------- Post added 2012-07-20 at 01:18 AM ----------

I was hoping you'd managed to pick up a full questing set but, no probs, it can be tested once pre-mades are released (I'm assuming they will be eventually).

With the rage generation buff expected in the next build, Arms damage will increase significantly due to otherwise gapped GCD's being filled by Slam. This will allow Shockwave to be subbed out for Dragon Roar which will be another fairly unambiguous DPS increase for Arms in my testing, so we'll see how that goes.

As hinted in the OP, though; there's not that much point debating damage. It'll be fairly even upon ship and everything seems well within the realms of tuning.

You do know that it's a nerf right? It will make us event gcd capped, and sink haste value even more.. What a bummer..
- and no, as it is now - arms wont get near fury (except from AoE)

Sadly they wont implement lvl90 premades
- we are too close to release.

[Luqyolo]

Good read, thanks for the information. Wish I could have the privilege of trying out warriors in MoP.

Also, I'd like to repeat what I've said in some other thread: HS is an awesome ability which any other class would love to have. Mainly because it is off the gcd, but it actually adds some complexity and rage management planning for a warrior which atm can mark the difference between a good dps and a great one. Once again, I have no clue of how we are in MoP beta but from what I've read we're lacking rage to even fill our gcds with standard abilities?

Only time will tell, but I think we're going to be just fine. As long as we bring value to the raid in terms of utility buffs but also some competitive dps, you should be happy :-D

[Zellviren]

You do know that it's a nerf right? It will make us event gcd capped, and sink haste value even more.. What a bummer.

They recently nerfed rage income from white damage, but they’re buffing it again because it’s too low (according to Ghostcrawler’s latest post).

- and no, as it is now - arms wont get near fury (except from AoE)

At the moment, I’m filling GCD’s with Battle Shout and even glyphed Hoarse Voice in order to do so. I’ve also picked Shockwave due to the 20s cooldown and it, also, hits for less than Slam does. Assuming I can fill those GCD’s with Slam, that lets me pick Dragon Roar which is a very, very strong single-target nuke.

Arms damage will increase significantly with a bit more rage, and that’s not even considering Heroic Strike which will see more use as the expansion wears on thanks to haste and critical strike ratings going up.

I’m not a Fury expert, so feel free to help out any misunderstanding, but the same basic potential for expansion outside of Heroic Strike isn’t there. Even if it is, my point still stands; it’ll be more tightly tuned by ship.

Sadly they wont implement lvl90 premades
- we are too close to release.

I still think they will, purely to help with raid tuning. If you can assume the right level of gear (rather than the standardisation tool they’re using), you can tune raid bosses far more tightly than you could otherwise.

You could easily be right of course and, if so, we’ll see how 5.0 raiding shakes out.

Good read, thanks for the information. Wish I could have the privilege of trying out warriors in MoP.

Erm, I actually got my key from Raptr by uploading my toon. I don’t know if they have any keys left, but it might be worth trying?

Also, I'd like to repeat what I've said in some other thread: HS is an awesome ability which any other class would love to have. Mainly because it is off the gcd, but it actually adds some complexity and rage management planning for a warrior which atm can mark the difference between a good dps and a great one. Once again, I have no clue of how we are in MoP beta but from what I've read we're lacking rage to even fill our gcds with standard abilities?

See, the thing is, Heroic Strike has traditionally caused more problems than its solved but, in principle, I agree with you. The part that annoys me is that they’re actually really close to getting it right. If Taste for Blood buffed Slam, there’d be plenty of room for warriors to grow into Heroic Strike use as time moves on, particularly if it had a fluctuating rage value similar to the way Execute works on live.

To answer your final question, yes, we’re lacking in rage on the beta at the moment but it’s about to be buffed which should solve a lot of problems.

Only time will tell, but I think we're going to be just fine. As long as we bring value to the raid in terms of utility buffs but also some competitive dps, you should be happy :-D

Aye, warrior DPS is pretty much always viable and our raid utility has gotten a much needed shot in the arm for Mists. Like I said in the OP, I don’t think any other DPS spec can bring an offensive AND defensive raid cooldown, as well as a tank external. And actually, if you think about it, Demoralizing Banner means we have two tank externals.

[Ripfull]

They recently nerfed rage income from white damage, but they’re buffing it again because it’s too low (according to Ghostcrawler’s latest post).



At the moment, I’m filling GCD’s with Battle Shout and even glyphed Hoarse Voice in order to do so. I’ve also picked Shockwave due to the 20s cooldown and it, also, hits for less than Slam does. Assuming I can fill those GCD’s with Slam, that lets me pick Dragon Roar which is a very, very strong single-target nuke.

Arms damage will increase significantly with a bit more rage, and that’s not even considering Heroic Strike which will see more use as the expansion wears on thanks to haste and critical strike ratings going up.

I’m not a Fury expert, so feel free to help out any misunderstanding, but the same basic potential for expansion outside of Heroic Strike isn’t there. Even if it is, my point still stands; it’ll be more tightly tuned by ship.



I still think they will, purely to help with raid tuning. If you can assume the right level of gear (rather than the standardisation tool they’re using), you can tune raid bosses far more tightly than you could otherwise.

You could easily be right of course and, if so, we’ll see how 5.0 raiding shakes out.



Erm, I actually got my key from Raptr by uploading my toon. I don’t know if they have any keys left, but it might be worth trying?



See, the thing is, Heroic Strike has traditionally caused more problems than its solved but, in principle, I agree with you. The part that annoys me is that they’re actually really close to getting it right. If Taste for Blood buffed Slam, there’d be plenty of room for warriors to grow into Heroic Strike use as time moves on, particularly if it had a fluctuating rage value similar to the way Execute works on live.

To answer your final question, yes, we’re lacking in rage on the beta at the moment but it’s about to be buffed which should solve a lot of problems.



Aye, warrior DPS is pretty much always viable and our raid utility has gotten a much needed shot in the arm for Mists. Like I said in the OP, I don’t think any other DPS spec can bring an offensive AND defensive raid cooldown, as well as a tank external. And actually, if you think about it, Demoralizing Banner means we have two tank externals.

Im sorry, but they already mentioned in a blue post that they wouldn't do 90 premades
It could change ofc, but they are already soon done with 10m HC bosses, so.

But yeah arms need a buff - but i still want fury to be top dps for PvE, but arms better for pvp - like it has been always (except cata which i hated! I love fury more for pve)

[Zellviren]

Im sorry, but they already mentioned in a blue post that they wouldn't do 90 premades

I thought that post came with the usual "at this time", so I'll look through them again. I get the sinking feeling that you're probably right, though.

But yeah arms need a buff - but i still want fury to be top dps for PvE, but arms better for pvp - like it has been always (except cata which i hated! I love fury more for pve)

I'm the opposite way round; I've always hated Fury, and never liked it less than in Cataclysm. Arms, on the other hand, always felt like a fun and viable PvE spec, even when it was underperforming at the tail end of WotLK or during 4.2. That said, I'd be comfortable if the developers simply said:

"You know what? We've been screwing warriors for the best part of two years now thanks to making Arms viable in PvE - we're going to start moving away from that now so that we can properly balance the spec in PvP".

[Ripfull]

I thought that post came with the usual "at this time", so I'll look through them again. I get the sinking feeling that you're probably right, though.



I'm the opposite way round; I've always hated Fury, and never liked it less than in Cataclysm. Arms, on the other hand, always felt like a fun and viable PvE spec, even when it was underperforming at the tail end of WotLK or during 4.2. That said, I'd be comfortable if the developers simply said:

"You know what? We've been screwing warriors for the best part of two years now thanks to making Arms viable in PvE - we're going to start moving away from that now so that we can properly balance the spec in PvP".

Arms is clunky as hell. I wanna have fast play with huge numbers and sustained dps.
Arms doesn't have any of that tbh, and on beta it's even worse

[donzo]

Arms is clunky as hell. I wanna have fast play with huge numbers and sustained dps.
Arms doesn't have any of that tbh, and on beta it's even worse

Arms has no sustained dps or huge numbers? stop trolling please or l2p ur class.

[Ripfull]

Arms has no sustained dps or huge numbers? stop trolling please or l2p ur class.

Target switching with rend, when mobs aren't in range of TC? Rend running out when u don't have uptime (morchok, hagara, madness fx)

Me trolling, nah? Me needing to l2p, hmm nah.
Think you need to think about what you are gonna type, when your argument's are shit.

[whoranzone]

Target switching with rend, when mobs aren't in range of TC? Rend running out when u don't have uptime (morchok, hagara, madness fx)

Me trolling, nah? Me needing to l2p, hmm nah.
Think you need to think about what you are gonna type, when your argument's are shit.

To what extent is he wrong ? What is arms supposed to have currently if not sustained dps ? And one gcd setup is not exactly slow either - at least not in this game.

[Zellviren]

Arms is clunky as hell. I wanna have fast play with huge numbers and sustained dps.
Arms doesn't have any of that tbh, and on beta it's even worse

I find Fury far more clunky on live than I do Arms, but that's just personal opinion.

And the spec has perfectly strong sustained DPS on live, something I'd expect to happen in MoP also.