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  1. #21
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    I perfectly know what I'm doing. I've been playing DK since day 1 of wotlk, and even though I'm far from being a hardcore gamer, we've cleared Heroic Ragnaros 25-man before 4.3, and 8/8 DS 25-man, which is arguably the biggest challenge a tank can face right now on live. Yadda yadda...

    Besides, I personnally never said our AoE was bad. We're just having issues when it comes to unplanned events.

    About downtime, honestly, I don't think it's as bad as we make it sound. Having a little is fine, because it helps us with timing our death strikes.

    All in all, it is just about this inability to react on demand. As long as things go according to your plan, it's fine. If several random mobs or spike damage get in the way, you're screwed unless you pop ERW. Of course, you can't do that very often, and that's in my eyes a problem.

    Adding back a way to refresh a rune or two on demand (old blood tap / new blood tap with 10 charges and no gdc) on top of having an actual rune regeneration talent like RE or RC, would not only solve this unability to react to unexpected damage or adds, but also fill this little downtime we have.

  2. #22
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    I also raid 25 man and I am a hardcore gamer. My guild has 4 tanks which can and will be swapped out for what best benefits the RAID on progression fights. And I'm neither a noob or an asshole in fact I'm one of the nicest people you will meet both in game and in real life. I'm very competent with my class, I have also leveled and geared either of the other 3 tanking classes so I can provide whatever the raid needs most. So you see mate, trying to talk about your raid comp for your 10 man is liking comparing apples to oranges in regards to the 25 man guilds many of us raid with. As for the whole 'take the player not the class' garbage you just spewed, while it sounds all cute and cuddly on a poster a guidance counselor's walls it has no place in hardcore raiding. If your class doesn't benefit the raid you are either asked to bring in your viable alt or set. In some hardcore you are actually REQUIRED to have viable alts so the raid is never let short-handed. That being said, some of us actually enjoy playing our blood dks and do not want to be forced to set or switch toons to fill the raid comp. And with that being said, if the active mitigation tanking standard truly balances all tanks in uniform manner the utility that blood dks currently bring to the raid in the form of being able to remain self-sustaining for long periods of time will be moot. Therefore, we need some utility which is EXTERNAL to us to justify our raid spots and that of course being a raid cool down.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Samsarathedk View Post
    Therefore, we need some utility which is EXTERNAL to us to justify our raid spots and that of course being a raid cool down.
    Raid utility doesn't have to be a cooldown.

  4. #24
    I didn't mean to sound so harsh regarding the aoe. Just that you mention DND a lot, and while that was our standard aoe tool in wrath, I remember getting away from using it a lot at the start of cata. Again though, I don't have beta access so perhaps things are really different.

    I look at our talent tree and 'cept for level 65 and 70, I definetly see talents that can be swapped around on a fight to fight basis in order to provide utility or an edge.

    While I do enjoy playing my Blood DK, giving us some sort of raid utility isn't going to cover up for all the other reasons why a certain tank is better on a fight than another tank. Good example would be shannox. Heroic leap is awesome for the dog. Could a blood dk do it? Yes, but he would have to be a better player than a similar warrior.

    In regards to bring the player not the class in a guild that is going for world firsts that probably won't matter since they will do "anything" in order to get an edge. Even if that means class stack for one fight. Or even cheat.

    Even in the semi casual guilds I played in, you were expected to keep an alt geared in case a certain mechanic could be cheesed using some sort of ability. This isn't new and it's not a hardcore only requirement. It's simply common sense since blizzard doesn't want to make every encounter exactly the same and there will always be cases where a certain class gives you an edge.

    I would think that the utility stuff you mentioned your post would matter even less in 25man raiding since you have more players, thus most stuff covered.

    if the active mitigation tanking standard truly balances all tanks in uniform manner
    Since you play 3 tanks perhaps you can answer this for me. Active mitigation to me means that how you perform comes down to how you play. For example, if someone asks for help with a blood dk keeps dying, then we need logs to see what they are doing because just looking at enchants, gems, and gear doesn't mean jack shit when it comes to staying alive.
    However, for a paladin on live, it pretty much is a case of nothing but the right gems, gear, reforges, and enchants, since you assume if they got all that right, then they have the ability to perform a rotation.

    Is that the case? Will how you play and how quickly you react to a situation now matter more for paladin, warriors and druids then it does on live? If that still is not the case, then this active mitigation thing doesn't seem like it will work out to balance the tank classes.
    The more of my behavior you accept, the less you will have to forgive.

  5. #25
    for me aoe threat hasn't been a big problem like lots of people are saying, maybe because i've specced into unholy blight and remorseless winter.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wih View Post
    Raid utility doesn't have to be a cooldown.
    No it doesn't, but providing the only tanking class that does not have a free raid cd with a raid cd makes the most sense for balancing all tanks with utility.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-26 at 09:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hyperionx View Post
    I didn't mean to sound so harsh regarding the aoe. Just that you mention DND a lot, and while that was our standard aoe tool in wrath, I remember getting away from using it a lot at the start of cata. Again though, I don't have beta access so perhaps things are really different.

    I look at our talent tree and 'cept for level 65 and 70, I definetly see talents that can be swapped around on a fight to fight basis in order to provide utility or an edge.

    While I do enjoy playing my Blood DK, giving us some sort of raid utility isn't going to cover up for all the other reasons why a certain tank is better on a fight than another tank. Good example would be shannox. Heroic leap is awesome for the dog. Could a blood dk do it? Yes, but he would have to be a better player than a similar warrior.

    In regards to bring the player not the class in a guild that is going for world firsts that probably won't matter since they will do "anything" in order to get an edge. Even if that means class stack for one fight. Or even cheat.

    Even in the semi casual guilds I played in, you were expected to keep an alt geared in case a certain mechanic could be cheesed using some sort of ability. This isn't new and it's not a hardcore only requirement. It's simply common sense since blizzard doesn't want to make every encounter exactly the same and there will always be cases where a certain class gives you an edge.

    I would think that the utility stuff you mentioned your post would matter even less in 25man raiding since you have more players, thus most stuff covered.


    Since you play 3 tanks perhaps you can answer this for me. Active mitigation to me means that how you perform comes down to how you play. For example, if someone asks for help with a blood dk keeps dying, then we need logs to see what they are doing because just looking at enchants, gems, and gear doesn't mean jack shit when it comes to staying alive.
    However, for a paladin on live, it pretty much is a case of nothing but the right gems, gear, reforges, and enchants, since you assume if they got all that right, then they have the ability to perform a rotation.

    Is that the case? Will how you play and how quickly you react to a situation now matter more for paladin, warriors and druids then it does on live? If that still is not the case, then this active mitigation thing doesn't seem like it will work out to balance the tank classes.
    Yes how quickly you react and how you use your resources will now matter for other tanks for example:

    1. If a paladin wants to increase his block and healing from word of glory has has to use his holy power on shield of the righteous to proc bastion of glory (the wog increase stacks up to 5 times) and he has to determine when is the best time to wog just as we have to determine the best time to death strike. Also, he has to make sure he keeps hammer of the righteous in his rotation to keep weakened blows up on his aggro target on top of maintaining their threat rotation.

    2. As for prot warriors, they have to burn 60 rage on shield block to block the next melee attack against you as well as increasing your block chance by 25% for 6 seconds while using thunder clap to apply weakened blows on top of maintaining their threat rotation.

    3. And lastly for guardian druids both frenzied regeneration and savage defense also cost rage so they have to deal with that as well as whichever ability applies weakened blows (the name escapes me at the moment) on top of maintaining their threat rotation.

    One can argue that blood dks will be the only TRUE active mitigation tanks because we do not have the luxury of having a shield to block for us or the ability to dodge continuously if we stop death striking but it is what it is. And before someone says brewmaster monks are TRUE active mitigation tanks like blood dks they are not simply because they will continue to stagger damage if they stand there with their black ox statue down. But at the very least, all non-dk tanks do play an active roll in just how much they actively increase their mitigation.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-26 at 09:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hellboyy View Post
    for me aoe threat hasn't been a big problem like lots of people are saying, maybe because i've specced into unholy blight and remorseless winter.
    Talents that provide diseases alone do not make or break aoe threat, the issue several blood dks are having are in regards to packs of 5-6 mobs like the adds after the Sha of Fear in heroic Shadowpan Monastery where we have to sacrifice death runes to obtain snap threat on all of the adds thereby sacrificing our mitigation.

    Edit: I seem to remember GC talking about the possibility of making blood shield a resource that you automatically have as baseline and merely add to it and refresh it but never falls off back around the 5% DS nerf. I can only assume the devs were considering this because they saw the flaw in making blood dks be the only active mitigation tanks. I guess they scrapped that idea when they decided to put all tanks of the active mitigation standard. However, I think now would be the perfect time for GC and the devs to remember their plan and implement it so we are not the only tanks who stuck performing a purely active mitigation tanking style. Also, this would set many blood tank's minds at ease in regards to the 34% downtime we are currently faced with.
    Last edited by Samsarathedk; 2012-07-27 at 02:20 AM.

  7. #27
    ^ well that's a big pack, yes i've done that place a few times. that's the whole point of having cds isn't it? you should communicate with the healer, use a few ccs etc.

    if a tank was self sustained through that kind of pack when they are not overgeared said tank will be overpowered.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellboyy View Post
    ^ well that's a big pack, yes i've done that place a few times. that's the whole point of having cds isn't it? you should communicate with the healer, use a few ccs etc.

    if a tank was self sustained through that kind of pack when they are not overgeared said tank will be overpowered.
    You're missing the point bud, we are the ONLY tanking class who has to sacrifice their active mitigation resources to properly handle packs like this.

    1. The paladin can continue to use SoR and Wog while laying down avenger shields, consecrates, and hammers.

    2. The druid can continue to thrash his ass off while properly using frenzied regen and savage defense.

    3. The warrior can continue to thunderclap and throw out revenge while effectively maintaining his 25% increased block from shield block.

    4. And the monk can continue to stagger damage and negate it through elusive brew while throwing out keg smashes, dragon's fire, black out kicks, and whatever the name of the spinning roundhouse kick they do is called.

    Thus, leaving blood dks, who are forced to sacrifice death runes (which should be used on death strikes to give us mitigation) on extra blood boils while we target tab rune strike spam our asses off.

  9. #29
    well lets see, SoR and WoG both have resource requirements so they aren't exactly spammable on demand.

    thrash has a 6 sec cd, and leaves a dot, dks have their diseases. frenzied regen also has a resource requirement, if the druid is using his rage for frenzied he won't have it on demand for savage defence.

    im not gonna comment on warrior or monk cos i havnt tried them on the beta. but each class has its advantages and disadvantages, warriors are traditionally strong for aoe tanking and dks for single target. look at DS, dk cud solo tank heroic madness, warrior was awesome on heroic spine. i think it would be boring if all tanks were homogenised and excelled at every role.

    dks have been given aoe tools like unholy blight and remorseless winter so use them for aoe situations. say you start the pull with bone shield up, that's 20% reduction and it has 6 charges, unlike other tanks that have a time limit on their 20% reduction cd.

    if you started the pull with D&D, unholy blight, remorseless winter, blood boil, do you really think ppl will start pulling off you immediately? if targets were marked, from this point on you can start death striking to get your mitigation up. if people start nuking other targets when things are marked that's their problem. oh and its the toughest group in the whole dungeon, why not use your 3 minute cd if you are really having that much of a problem. why not empower rune weapon to get more runes? oh and dare i say it dks have army of the dead, surely it's worth using on a huge trash pack that might give you trouble.

    if you are faced with tougher groups i think it's appropriate you are forced to use your cds to tank properly. some classes will always be stronger at aoe tanking than others. that's what makes a class unique, their strengths and weaknesses, if everything was homogenised it would make for a boring game.

  10. #30
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    About these specific trash, there are three packs in a row. They all do the same thing. For the first one, I went with army of the dead, for the second I went with ERW (and even with ERW, I couldn't manage to get aggro on everything), and for the last one well... mage and rogue died, and I couldn't do anything about it.

    Did it recently on my paladin, it went so great it made me sick ^^.

    Chain pulling with no downtime on my STD with hammer of the righteous (which does aoe damage, while I have to wait on outbreak on my dk which isn't an aoe move and won't even do damage), three great aoe moves (four if you consider the level 90 dnd-like talent that's light's hammer, which is ticking so hard it basically is enough by itself to keep everyone on you for 16 seconds). Consecration has less than 9 sec CD, can be placed at a specific place just like DnD, and is ticking for like 600 damage every second for 9sec. (Which means it can basically be up all the time.) To compare it with death an decay, it is ticking for the exact same damage every second for 10 sec, 30 sec cd. (My DK is ilvl 408, my paladin is a 380 premade.)

    Holy wrath is hitting fairly high (more than my blood boil on diseased targets, except it doesn't require any debuff management) and if you can't keep aggro with these three tools, then you can always use avenger's shield on less than 4 targets.

    My paladin is limited by it's own cooldowns, not it's ressources. But it doesn't really matter, because if one of my aoe move is on CD, I have at least two others (arguably 3 if you count avenger's shield) move in my arsenal. If I just use them all at the same time, I have so much aggro I just don't even know what to do with it. Plus, no matter what happens, I can always use my active mitigation spell.

    On my Dk, if DnD is on CD, the only direct aoe move that's left for me is blood boil. Some may argue heartstrike is also one, but you can't do both since they use the same rune. If for a reason, I fail on my ressource management, or some unintended event enters the equation when I'm out of runes or DnD is on CD, I can't do shit about it. That's what I'm complaining about. If I use generated death runes, I can do a bit more aggro, but then I can't use my active mitigation spell.

    I want to be able to respond to these events, just like I can on my paladin, and without sacrificing any of my mitigation.

  11. #31
    Though I like the raid wide CD idea in the OP keep in mind we do have a choice to spec into Anti Magic Zone which, hopefully, will now not be useless anymore. It's magic only but that should still work in most cases (I don't know many encounters with raid wise physical damage you need a CD for). Has anyone tested AMZ to see how it currently performs at 90? I'd be really interested in that as I've always loved the idea but never really had a reason (or the option) to use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    I've been doing some instances. Just did the Shado-pan monasteries and hell... I have to say, everytime I go there, things get hard after you kill the Sha of Violence. Towards the end of the dungeon, there are packs with a lot of adds randomly popping here and there. I had a really hard time to grab them when death and decay was on CD. I played with the usual alt-tab + runestrike, diseases on everyone and of course death gripping + taunting everytime I could. I even had to use my death runes to blood boil a little more (heart strike was no use, there was just so many of them) and give up on every drop of active mitigation I could possibly sacrifice. Even with that, I was still unable to get all the adds. (And I'm not talking about 1 or 2 loose mobs, I'm talking about 3 to 5 guys wandering off.)

    I didn't have the chance to do it on my paladin yet so I can't compare, but damn, that felt quite frustrating to see all these mobs going everywhere and killing dps while I was getting completely hammered by the mobs I managed to keep on me. (because no death strike) I have no idea if we're intended to establish a focus order on every trash pack... especially when blizzard said 5-mans would be more like Wotlk ones. I'm not complaining because it's hard. I'm complaining because I feel my arsenal has been completely cut down to the point I just can't keep aggro on everything while I perfectly can on live with absolutely no issue.

    There is also no way to chain pull trash packs and keeping STD without gimping yourself. The blood boil fix is nice, but it doesn't help when you need to go fast. I can definitely see a problem here if you intend to do timers, or challenge modes. Having to wait on outbreak is lame. Always was, always will be. (Waiting on dnd is also quite annoying.)

    We need a way to get runes on demand for this kind of situations and for spike damage. I just hate to look at things getting messy and being completely unable to do shit about it. :/
    This is a bit worrying, how many adds are we talking about? For unexpected extra pulls etc we have ERW, I take it that the 5 min CD was too long in this case? Currently on live I don't bother with diseases at all on trash because they take too long to apply by which time the AOEing DPS will have pulled them all over the place so I just DND and HS/RS tab and use an available CD at the start of the pull for harder hitting packs. Would you say this would be an issue in current MOP dungeons? IE: too much damage to avoid diseases / too many packs to be able to use CDs?

    Edit: saw your reply above after I posted which answers these questions so nvm
    Last edited by Swoopeh; 2012-07-27 at 08:09 AM.

  12. #32
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swoopeh View Post
    Though I like the raid wide CD idea in the OP keep in mind we do have a choice to spec into Anti Magic Zone which, hopefully, will now not be useless anymore. It's magic only but that should still work in most cases (I don't know many encounters with raid wise physical damage you need a CD for). Has anyone tested AMZ to see how it currently performs at 90? I'd be really interested in that as I've always loved the idea but never really had a reason (or the option) to use it.
    AMZ is better in beta, but it's far from being really good. The only moments this spell will really shine is when the entire group/raid takes damage at the same exact time. (i.e. Nefarian / Ultraxion etc..) The main issue with this CD is that you have to give up Purgatory in order to get it. When it comes to progression, I don't think any tank will spit on such a great mechanic that will only proc when you need it.

    This is a bit worrying, how many adds are we talking about? For unexpected extra pulls etc we have ERW, I take it that the 5 min CD was too long in this case? Currently on live I don't bother with diseases at all on trash because they take too long to apply by which time the AOEing DPS will have pulled them all over the place so I just DND and HS/RS tab and use an available CD at the start of the pull for harder hitting packs. Would you say this would be an issue in current MOP dungeons? IE: too much damage to avoid diseases / too many packs to be able to use CDs?
    I have frankly no idea, there was just so many of them. I still don't get the mechanic of these packs, there are maybe like ... 4 or 5 of them, and suddenly, you end up with 10 or so. I never had the ressources to handle that many adds on my DK, but on my paladin it was fine. (Thanks to the low CD arsenal of aoe they have)

    I don't bother with diseases on live either, except when raiding or on bosses. The current problem with DK is the lack of synergy between talents and the total absence of tools to give us ways to be reactive to unexpected events. Now please bear in mind I'm only talking about trash mobs, boss adds, gauntlets events, challenge modes and/or timed runs.

    About synergy : Currently on beta, if you use DnD to pull (and you will definitely need to use it if you want to keep aggro) you lose a death strike. If you intend to chain pull things and apply STD, you will need to use plague strike (because you can't always wait on outbreak, which is on a 1 min cd, especially if you need or want to go fast), so you'll lose a death strike again. (Hell both cases may happen. Even if that's kind of suicidal and I don't really see anyone doing it, you could pull with DnD and use plague strike, leaving you with no active mitigation for at least 8 seconds.)

    About our lack of reactive tools : There is absolutely no room for sitting on runes. You will need your blood runes as soon as they refresh to maintain threat. May it be via blood boil because there are more than 3 targets, or because you simply need to refresh or spread diseases... or via heart strike because you need to generate a lot of aggro on less than 4 targets. Alt tabbing + Rune strike is also a must if you intend to keep these evil mobs far away from your berserking aoe-ing dps buddies. As long as you do this, you should be fine. (Really) Mob bars may turn yellow from time to time, but you can always target the specific guy and do some more damage to it.

    The issue with this gameplay is that you don't have any spare ressource for unexpected aggros or spike damage. We've seen there are already several ways to gimp your survival (by keeping STD up or by using DnD), using death runes to pull more blood boils/heart strikes is another way to give up on your active mitigation and get completely smashed. (I can literally drop from 100% to 30% health in a few seconds on these specific packs when not using death strike) Now, I know there are defensive cooldowns for this kind of situation, but frankly, you can't pretend using all you have in order to clear three miserable pack of trash mobs is fine when other tanking classes can do it fine by just using their active mitigation skill. (Considering they can use it without giving up on aggro, and vis-versa.) Combined to this, we've lost a fair bit of passive mitigation. Basically, you could translate all this by saying : "We take more base damage, and can't answer to this damage on demand like we used to."

    Final word : Both issues are related. This lack of synergy is killing our survival (using unholy runes), and our lack of reactive tools is bringing even more synergy problems. (having to use death runes for aggro) To me, the best solution would indeed to be to add a way to refresh runes from time to time (à la old blood tap, completely unrelated and thus additive to our current rune regen talents) so you can react to unexpected events and actually balance the usage of unholy runes. Adding a RP aoe would be a way to solve the flowing add issue. If this specific aoe could proc our rune regen talents, we could grab those little buggers and still focus on active mitigation without giving up on anything. (It does not solve spike damage issues on bosses though, but this is another matter.)

    If you look closely at blood DK's on live, and blood DK's on beta, the main difference is that on live, we have blood tap + another form of rune regen (RE). We can gain back the rune we spent on DnD or on Bone Shield (even though it isn't an issue anymore on beta. Still, some could argue it has been replaced by usage of plague strike in order to chain pull AND maintain STD up) and we can get runes for these oh-shit moments. (i.e flowing adds) To me, this is the core problem of this whole downtime, aoe, ability to react thing. We are forced to choose one way to refresh runes while blood DK's are made to work around two of them.

    None of these issues are game breaking, but when put together, it just makes the class unfun and unpractical to play. It feels kinda lame to dislike the class I always played with, and being more and more attracted to another, just because it works better. (Even though you're not fond of the gameplay)

    tl;dr : Blood tap (live) + RE is working fine. They should probably bring it back. (Hell, I'm pretty sure it would even work with RC.) This whole rune regen talent tier is a mess and is harming blood DKs.
    Last edited by Asheriah; 2012-07-27 at 08:37 AM.

  13. #33
    Speccing into Blood should make Death Strike cost runic power, and Rune Strike cost Frost+Unholy. Keep the mechanics of these strikes the same as before, while adjusting numbers to fit whatever vision Blizzard has for DK tanking.
    This way Rune Strike becomes the "Shield Slam" for big snap aggro on single targets, while the active mitigation is separated from resources used to generate threat, in line with other classes. (BT, RE and RC will now proc on Death Strike instead, and Blood Rites will proc on Rune Strike)
    Last edited by ugeowhopwr; 2012-07-27 at 10:29 AM.

  14. #34
    The biggest odity for blood tanking for me has always been that Death Strike, unquestionably the most important strike for a blood tank, converts unholy/frost runes into death runes. Those death runes are near useless to blood tanks. This obviously still is a relic from when blood dk was the dps spec, and death strike was used to allow more heart strikes with the death runes. In a blood tank scenario however it would make alot more sense if heart strike/blood boil/pestilence would convert blood runes into death runes.

    Apart from that, could removing the cd on DnD (and allow multiple DnD's at the same time) and let DnD consume a blood rune, be a good solution to the instant AoE aggro issue?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by yehyehyehyeh View Post
    The biggest odity for blood tanking for me has always been that Death Strike, unquestionably the most important strike for a blood tank, converts unholy/frost runes into death runes. Those death runes are near useless to blood tanks. This obviously still is a relic from when blood dk was the dps spec, and death strike was used to allow more heart strikes with the death runes. In a blood tank scenario however it would make alot more sense if heart strike/blood boil/pestilence would convert blood runes into death runes.

    Apart from that, could removing the cd on DnD (and allow multiple DnD's at the same time) and let DnD consume a blood rune, be a good solution to the instant AoE aggro issue?
    That would probably be a bit too good. Now, on the other hand if they made DnD work the same way as consecration, things would probably be a bit different. (1 blood (or free ?) AoE ticking for damage every sec. for 10 sec. 10 sec. CD)

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    That would probably be a bit too good. Now, on the other hand if they made DnD work the same way as consecration, things would probably be a bit different. (1 blood (or free ?) AoE ticking for damage every sec. for 10 sec. 10 sec. CD)
    -This would be the best solution, reduce the cd and make it free that way no one QQ's that we're OP.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-27 at 07:45 AM ----------

    Re-posting this to get some feedback:

    I seem to remember GC talking about the possibility of making blood shield a resource that you automatically have as baseline and merely add to it and refresh it but never falls off back around the 5% DS nerf. I can only assume the devs were considering this because they saw the flaw in making blood dks be the only active mitigation tanks. I guess they scrapped that idea when they decided to put all tanks of the active mitigation standard. However, I think now would be the perfect time for GC and the devs to remember their plan and implement it so we are not the only tanks who stuck performing a purely active mitigation tanking style. Also, this would set many blood tank's minds at ease in regards to the 34% downtime we are currently faced with.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    That would probably be a bit too good. Now, on the other hand if they made DnD work the same way as consecration, things would probably be a bit different. (1 blood (or free ?) AoE ticking for damage every sec. for 10 sec. 10 sec. CD)
    DKs already have a consecration-esque move by speccing into Roiling Blood. The problem here is reacting to unexpected events requires DKs to sacrifice their active mitigation, which other tanks classes don't. IMO this is because Blood Shield is tied into the same resources used to generate threat - runes. Eg. paladins use mana to generate AoE threat, and Holy Power for mitigation. Warriors have free TClap to generate AoE threat, and Rage for mitigation. Following to this model, DKs should use runic power for mitigation, which currently is mostly only used to refresh runes quicker.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Samsarathedk View Post
    Re-posting this to get some feedback:

    I seem to remember GC talking about the possibility of making blood shield a resource that you automatically have as baseline and merely add to it and refresh it but never falls off back around the 5% DS nerf. I can only assume the devs were considering this because they saw the flaw in making blood dks be the only active mitigation tanks. I guess they scrapped that idea when they decided to put all tanks of the active mitigation standard. However, I think now would be the perfect time for GC and the devs to remember their plan and implement it so we are not the only tanks who stuck performing a purely active mitigation tanking style. Also, this would set many blood tank's minds at ease in regards to the 34% downtime we are currently faced with.
    In regards to the active mitigation, that is one of the things I like the most about playing my blood dk. Timing Death Strikes nicely can be really rewarding. The problem with blood dk's currently with regards to blood shield is that it makes that we take spiky damage.

    Example (numbers do not correspond to reality):

    You have a 50k bloodshield, next hit does 60k, you take only 10k damage, 50k absorbed. Blood shield gone, and our health looks ok to our healer. BAM, next hit unmitigated 60k, healer 'panics' and overheals with expensive heals, spending much more mana than actually needed, ...

    It would be much more easier to heal a dk if the damage was less spiky. This could be obtained if the damage absorbed by blood shield was limited to 50% (can be tweaked to whatever seems fine) of the total damage of the hit.

    Example:

    You have a 50k bloodshield, next hit does 60k damage, you take 30k damage, 30k absorbed. Blood shield still has 20k left. Next hit comes, 60k damage, bloodshield absorbes 20k, you take 40k. Total damage taken is the same, total damage absorbed is the same, but it's alot less spiky.

    This would however remove -some- of the blood dk minigame of using death strike after taking huge damage bursts.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ugeowhopwr View Post
    DKs already have a consecration-esque move by speccing into Roiling Blood. The problem here is reacting to unexpected events requires DKs to sacrifice their active mitigation, which other tanks classes don't. IMO this is because Blood Shield is tied into the same resources used to generate threat - runes. Eg. paladins use mana to generate AoE threat, and Holy Power for mitigation. Warriors have free TClap to generate AoE threat, and Rage for mitigation. Following to this model, DKs should use runic power for mitigation, which currently is mostly only used to refresh runes quicker.
    Roiling blood is more like avengers shield than it is consecration, with that being said, if the devs actually implemented the changes to blood shield like they originally discussed we wouldn't get murdered if we have to use a couple of death runes on blood boils.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by yehyehyehyeh View Post
    In regards to the active mitigation, that is one of the things I like the most about playing my blood dk. Timing Death Strikes nicely can be really rewarding. The problem with blood dk's currently with regards to blood shield is that it makes that we take spiky damage.

    Example (numbers do not correspond to reality):

    You have a 50k bloodshield, next hit does 60k, you take only 10k damage, 50k absorbed. Blood shield gone, and our health looks ok to our healer. BAM, next hit unmitigated 60k, healer 'panics' and overheals with expensive heals, spending much more mana than actually needed, ...

    It would be much more easier to heal a dk if the damage was less spiky. This could be obtained if the damage absorbed by blood shield was limited to 50% (can be tweaked to whatever seems fine) of the total damage of the hit.

    Example:

    You have a 50k bloodshield, next hit does 60k damage, you take 30k damage, 30k absorbed. Blood shield still has 20k left. Next hit comes, 60k damage, bloodshield absorbes 20k, you take 40k. Total damage taken is the same, total damage absorbed is the same, but it's alot less spiky.

    This would however remove -some- of the blood dk minigame of using death strike after taking huge damage bursts.
    A lot of us like the dk-minigame the issue we have is that sometimes we're stuck wasting our active mitigation resources on aoe threat which in turns leaves us without a tasty blood shield/heal to save us. If blood shield becomes a baseline shield we build but never fully lose we will gain quite a bit of breathing room.

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