Thread: [Ret] Judgment?

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  1. #1
    Stood in the Fire
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    [Ret] Judgment?

    Is it intended for Judgment to no longer apply/refresh Censure anymore? If so why was that change made?

    Yes, Judgement has had quite the long history and has been a relatively unique ability since its inception. It's been a mix between a ‘ranged’ type attack or a ‘spell’, or for most of the past few years it’s been a ‘melee’ attack with a long range. That’s why it triggered Censure. But it also shared a bunch of properties with spells. So, for Mists, we decided to finally make it consistent with everything else and just say that it’s purely a spell, just as much as Exorcism or Holy Shock are spells.

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    I just dont understand why they have to do this. Sometimes it's the only means by which censure wont drop off even at present time Cataclysm. With everyones abilities to kite us (even with all our MoP snarebreakers) it just doesn't seem fair. If they want to call it a spell who cares? Just don't take away what it does for the class for both prot and ret as it is right now. Let them call it a spell, let them declassify it as a melee attack or whatever may have you just let it apply and refresh censure......

    I wish I had a beta account so I could post in the beta forums :\

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  2. #2
    I agree to an extent. I was rather excited because between Exo AND judg generating holy power, along with Glyph of Harsh Word. It looked like we could still have some decent pressure while at a range.

    I do think Censure will be easier to keep up though. We now have a 50% UN-DISPELIBLE slow tied to our judgment. Yes it's on the same tier as rep and Imp HoJ. But the only time you will be taking the other two options are if you're running a Comp that already has a consistent slow (Chains, Crip, Infected wound ect).

    In short, i wouldn't stress about it to much. It isn't a huge issue.

  3. #3
    The refresh timer on Censure this isn't really a problem, unless you don't plan on landing a single attack that would trigger Censure within it's time limit then you're doing something wrong. No biggie though.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Adominitis View Post
    The refresh timer on Censure this isn't really a problem, unless you don't plan on landing a single attack that would trigger Censure within it's time limit then you're doing something wrong. No biggie though.
    Atramedes and Valiona/Hallion say hi.I would like to see you keeping censure up if they remake a similar fight.
    If you dont think before you post you are doing it wrong.
    Last edited by marinos; 2012-07-24 at 06:39 PM.

  5. #5
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinos View Post
    Atramedes and Valiona/Hallion say hi.I would like to see you keeping censure up if they remake a similar fight.
    And I'm sure they will at some point. :/

    This change makes it much harder to solo fights like Onyxia and Winterchill too. It's really dumb and I don't see what the purpose is.

  6. #6
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    But what I dont understand is judgement didn't used to refresh/apply censure. We literally just got that in Cataclysm iirc. Now that everything is a spell we could be locked out of all our ranged abilities. Now that it's a spell someone could blanket us, or maybe say a boss ability silences everyone in melee all we can do is CS/TV/DS? Warriors and Dk's wouldnt have that problem. If we didnt have to stack it to 5 to do max damage my qq would be lessened but we do infact have to get it to 5. :\

    All I see is nerfs to the spec and despite the rotation being more fluid it just isn't going to matter if the game "feels" better if our damage is garbage again.

    Come to think of it, now that it's not a melee attack........
    Think of Gurth, think of Eye of Unmaking and other "Melee attacks have a chance to..... Your melee attacks grant you"
    Last edited by fears; 2012-07-24 at 06:51 PM.

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  7. #7
    It's just annoying how he ignored the true purpose of the question, which was "Why can't Ret refresh Censure at range any more?", I don't think anyone really gave a crap about Judgement properties in and of themselves.

  8. #8
    There goes my mouseover multidotting .. it's really nice trying to keep censure rolling on several targets, why do they have to destroy this really.
    For example Garalon's legs, or any other multitarget fight, melee is getting screwed over enough already on the MoP fights compared to lolranged..

  9. #9
    Stood in the Fire
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    @Tangra;

    Amidst my rage at what they did to judgment I didn't realize that you're 100% right that he didn't even answer the question, lol.

    Still sad though

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  10. #10
    You can't really multi DoT as easily any more without being in melee range. Fights like V&T and madness of dw, just focus macro judgement and keep those DoTs rolling without ever being in front of the target. Other ones like Halfus, Rhyolith and warmaster are a bit easier to have multiple censures up.

    Now afaik only exorcism can reapply censure at range, and that has a long cd (unless you get lucky with an AoW proc). Still have to turn and face the target to reapply anyways.

    It might be offset by the extra damage from glyphing double jeopardy. But I am still not a fan of that.

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    This lowers the Ret PvE and PvP skill cap again because not being able to roll censure on multiple targets was something only good players were doing but now they can't even do it. Think about it from this stand point, If judgement has been turned directly into a spell when a class spell locks you it's game over you are flat out screwed. No more judging for a speed boost to get away or anything else. This is a huge problem and needs to be addressed pretty badly.
    Last edited by Requital; 2012-07-24 at 10:15 PM.
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  12. #12
    Yes, Ret's multi dotting was a fun little way to squeeze a bit more out of the spec, and increasing the skill cap as mentioned above. It added depth to the spec and it's unfortunate that they took it out for no particularly good reason.

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    I posted that for a guild member w/o beta forum access to begin with I'm glad it got answered as it's pretty huge but we could really use the support on that thread.

    The original post - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...?page=129#2570

    Crithto's reply - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...?page=130#2593

    Feel free to quote and reply to whichever, But judgement as melee was added to help with stacking censure faster and procs Blizzard has to realize how bad this is for us.
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  14. #14
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    I didnt even know it was your post Req, but thanks for doing it. I'd rather it be the way it is on live and remove glyph of double jeopardy if thats the worry.
    I don't have beta but if theres some way to help, do tell.

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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    Feel free to quote and reply to whichever, But judgement as melee was added to help with stacking censure faster and procs Blizzard has to realize how bad this is for us.
    They could just make it stack to 3, I don't see the harm in that. They could also resort to Seals being "bugged" and double proccing again to get us more in-line with other strength melee on melee-proc trinkets.

    Oh yeah and keep in mind that Censure stacks are technically an overall less-effective portion of our DPS. Judgment's damage is not dependent on Censure stacks anymore.
    Last edited by Reith; 2012-07-25 at 01:00 AM.

  16. #16
    I don't get why it even had to be messed with. Judgment was fine as is.

    Just blows my mind that they'd make a change like that because of flavor without realizing the repercussions it has for Prot/Ret in both facets of the game.

    Any of you guys with Beta posting access need to keep pressing the issue.

  17. #17
    It's not flavor. It's basic game mechanics. Spells got changed into spells, melee attacks stay as melee attacks, and a whole lot of synergies got switched around. Now Judgement doesn't have any interaction with Censure anymore, thus it doesn't need to apply it. The whole "focus macro another target to keep censure on them through an entire fight" idea is interesting, but Retribution shouldn't have to pay attention to DoTs. Seal of Truth is there to be a nice, passive DPS boost and a ramp-up mechanic for as spec that's going to get even burstier now we have more Holy Power generators available, not a multidotting tool.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    It's not flavor. It's basic game mechanics. Spells got changed into spells, melee attacks stay as melee attacks, and a whole lot of synergies got switched around. Now Judgement doesn't have any interaction with Censure anymore, thus it doesn't need to apply it. The whole "focus macro another target to keep censure on them through an entire fight" idea is interesting, but Retribution shouldn't have to pay attention to DoTs. Seal of Truth is there to be a nice, passive DPS boost and a ramp-up mechanic for as spec that's going to get even burstier now we have more Holy Power generators available, not a multidotting tool.
    Besides the whole point of multi-dotting with Censure (which was probably too complicated for you to handle ), Judgment becoming a spell has bigger issues.
    A Paladin get's CS'ed that locks them out of Exorcism, Holy Wrath, healing/hand spells, and now Judgment.
    Do you not see the problem with that?

  19. #19
    Considering that as a Ret or Prot Pally I should not be getting interrupted, much less silenced if I'm playing right? Nope, no problem at all. As Holy? Seems like the intended behavior. Are fights with blanket silences going to be a bit more annoying to DPS/tank through? Maybe, but those aren't as common as they once were.

    And really, multi-dotting with Censure too complicated for me to handle? Since when is setting up two macros too complicated for anyone? I don't do it because I find it needless busywork to pad meters. I don't raid competitively, my group doesn't freak out if I don't extract absolutely every micro ounce of DPS I can out of my spec in exchange for fun, so I never did it.

  20. #20
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Considering that as a Ret or Prot Pally I should not be getting interrupted, much less silenced if I'm playing right? Nope, no problem at all. As Holy? Seems like the intended behavior. Are fights with blanket silences going to be a bit more annoying to DPS/tank through? Maybe, but those aren't as common as they once were.

    And really, multi-dotting with Censure too complicated for me to handle? Since when is setting up two macros too complicated for anyone? I don't do it because I find it needless busywork to pad meters. I don't raid competitively, my group doesn't freak out if I don't extract absolutely every micro ounce of DPS I can out of my spec in exchange for fun, so I never did it.
    I'm sorry but if you believe what you just typed then you don't PvP above the 1500 bracket, a smart caster or even DK in arena/rbg's will silence/strangulate you to keep you from freedoming yourself it's called silence for a reason not an interrupt and judgement needs to stay a melee mechanic and not a spell mechanic or it leaves Ret dead in the water in PvP. Just because you don't try to excel doesn't mean that everyone should also be stuck adhering to that same play style. As it is if you don't want to you don't have to but someone that wants to should be rewarded for playing better.
    Last edited by Requital; 2012-07-25 at 02:25 AM.
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