Thread: [Ret] Judgment?

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Considering that as a Ret or Prot Pally I should not be getting interrupted, much less silenced if I'm playing right? Nope, no problem at all.
    http://www.wowdb.com/spells/12598-improved-counterspell
    http://www.wowdb.com/spells/47476-strangulate
    http://www.wowdb.com/spells/78675-solar-beam
    http://www.wowdb.com/spells/34490-silencing-shot
    http://www.wowdb.com/spells/19647-spell-lock

    Edit: Those aren't even including things you can spec into.
    Last edited by learntotank; 2012-07-25 at 02:27 AM.

  2. #22
    Pray tell, why would anyone in their right mind want to silence a Retribution Paladin when there are tastier casters to annoy instead? Silencing a Mage stops all his efforts for the duration. Silencing a Retribution Paladin reduces his DPS somewhat for a little while, but he's still able to smack you about with that big hammer of his for nontrivial damage for the 2-3 Global Cooldowns he's going to be silenced. I suppose you could get preemptively silenced in a duel, but I think at this time we already know Blizzard's stance towards 1vs1.

    You're making mountains out of molehills. It's not a big deal no matter how you slice it. Might it be inconvenient on occasion? Yes. But I'm not crying bloody murder over it.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Pray tell, why would anyone in their right mind want to silence a Retribution Paladin when there are tastier casters to annoy instead? Silencing a Mage stops all his efforts for the duration. Silencing a Retribution Paladin reduces his DPS somewhat for a little while, but he's still able to smack you about with that big hammer of his for nontrivial damage for the 2-3 Global Cooldowns he's going to be silenced. I suppose you could get preemptively silenced in a duel, but I think at this time we already know Blizzard's stance towards 1vs1.
    Yeah because it's not like in arena people sit on Ret Paladins and CC a healer. No way has that ever happened before.

    You're making mountains out of molehills. It's not a big deal no matter how you slice it. Might it be inconvenient on occasion? Yes. But I'm not crying bloody murder over it.
    You just said a few posts ago that you don't care to min/max because you're in a shit guild and most likely bad yourself. Your opinion doesn't matter when it comes to class mechanics because it doesn't matter to you you'll still perform the same either way.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Pray tell, why would anyone in their right mind want to silence a Retribution Paladin when there are tastier casters to annoy instead? Silencing a Mage stops all his efforts for the duration. Silencing a Retribution Paladin reduces his DPS somewhat for a little while, but he's still able to smack you about with that big hammer of his for nontrivial damage for the 2-3 Global Cooldowns he's going to be silenced. I suppose you could get preemptively silenced in a duel, but I think at this time we already know Blizzard's stance towards 1vs1.

    You're making mountains out of molehills. It's not a big deal no matter how you slice it. Might it be inconvenient on occasion? Yes. But I'm not crying bloody murder over it.

    Have you ever entered an arena match? WoW PvP is about crippling and ccing your oponent until he pukes. Mage: Counterspell, frost nova, shatter... Ret is such a victim to silence and will be even a greater victim in mop if this bullshit does not get changed back to the absolutely okay way it was before. Besides, it's such a joke that both our holy dps spells and holy heal spells are blocked with a kick. What class has this penalty? For ages there is so much wrong with ret that could have easily been remedied.. But blizzard seems to like pretending they do good work with ret just to screw us over eventually. Since the beginning do we have to fight with issues no class else has to fight with. And on top of that we lose our uniqueness from content to content. If you don't get why this thread is required to be discussed.. Well, then it would probably be better if you just stopped posting here -.-.
    Last edited by JayJay09; 2012-07-25 at 02:54 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by learntotank View Post
    You just said a few posts ago that you don't care to min/max because you're in a shit guild and most likely bad yourself. Your opinion doesn't matter when it comes to class mechanics because it doesn't matter to you you'll still perform the same either way.
    Grow up. My opinions matter just as much as yours. I work five days a week and have other obligations besides WoW in my free time. If you think I'm not entitled to have as much fun in this game as you, or that my opinion is worth less because I can't play as much as you, you are wrong. If you need to call me "bad" to make yourself feel good, I don't think you can be taken seriously.

    Multidotting Censure was not "skilled", it was a gimmick. Did it give you more damage? Sure. Did it require more "skill"? Not any more than creating a macro and remembering to focus-target something. Certainly less than knowing your priorities and doing your rotation properly. Was it intended? Most likely not, since it's been removed in the Beta. Is it relevant now? It isn't. Damage will be balanced around Censure only being stacked against one target, as it's always been done.

  6. #26
    I think we've gotten over the multi-dotting part.

    If you can't tell there is a big issue with Judgment being a spell, then you have no business talking about class mechanics. Period.

  7. #27
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Ok let's not turn this into flaming, please be civil so this thread doesn't get locked. This is actually something we need to help Blizzard realize and we really need to be vocal about it. We can't just accept it and move on it is quite devastating for our class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    It's not flavor. It's basic game mechanics. Spells got changed into spells, melee attacks stay as melee attacks, and a whole lot of synergies got switched around. Now Judgement doesn't have any interaction with Censure anymore, thus it doesn't need to apply it. The whole "focus macro another target to keep censure on them through an entire fight" idea is interesting, but Retribution shouldn't have to pay attention to DoTs. Seal of Truth is there to be a nice, passive DPS boost and a ramp-up mechanic for as spec that's going to get even burstier now we have more Holy Power generators available, not a multidotting tool.
    On live, Censure stacks from any single target attack, ultimately the issue here isn't just about judgement, exorcism and hammer of wrath also don't stack Censure any more. The real question is why we have lost the ability to stack Censure at range not the nuances of ability properties.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    On live, Censure stacks from any single target attack, ultimately the issue here isn't just about judgement, exorcism and hammer of wrath also don't stack Censure any more. The real question is why we have lost the ability to stack Censure at range not the nuances of ability properties.
    Lots of possible reasons:

    Because Exorcism is instant-cast and limited by a resettable cooldown, thus giving Paladins better ranged damage. Because Judgment isn't a throwaway damage skill that occasionally procs Divine Purpose anymore and instead got turned into a Holy Power generator with a damage component. Because Censure itself lost its interaction with Judgment, so you don't get bigger Judgments on a target with Censure stacked on it and without that interaction Censure itself is a fairly inconsequential DoT. Because Retribution ramp-up time was reduced considerably. Because Retribution doesn't lose quite as much damage running Seal of Justice anymore.

    It could be due to any of those reasons. Or some other we haven't been told. Keep in mind that there's no developer vendetta against Paladins: it's in Blizzard's best interests that the game is as balanced as possible. All those solutions brought up in this thread have probably been at least theorized, if not actually tested internally before being discarded for one reason or another. And no, they can't tells us everything that's been right or wrong about an idea and why it's not implemented because we'd both pick on their words until the original meaning was completely lost and having to document every little thing like that for public consumption would slow things down even further. Blizzard's development process is iterative, and even if we don't see what they're doing behind the curtains, it doesn't mean there aren't things being done. And they have to look at things on a much better picture than we do. That implies doing a lot of things we on the ground thing are stupid, for the sake of balance or internal consistency to reduce bugs and make sure the system scales properly as the game evolves. Big changes like the ones in Mists come at a price, you know?

    Speaking of bigger pictures and big changes, we can't just look at Judgment or Censure in a vacuum. The damage that was lost in one place has to turn up somewhere else. The procs that it provided will have to go somewhere else as well if they are to stay in the game. It's the same argument people who don't want Inquisition don't seem to grasp: even if the sources of damage are switched around, the damage itself has to remain constant. And Judgment being silenced is still not a big deal. It's not a proc-based ability. There's no window of opportunity to use it. Someone who silences you delays your Holy Power generation for a few seconds (which I'm sure is enough to end an Arena match), assuming Judgment isn't on cooldown (and it should be), but if you do make it through you're only 1 GCD away from all the damage you would have done and HP you would have generated with it if you hadn't been silenced.

    Is that unacceptable to you? Well, then you're in your right to lobby for all non-healing Paladin spells to be exempt from silences. While you are at that, ask for that for Enhancement Shamans. I'll not be grabbing a pitchfork to join you in the siege of Blizzard headquarters for it, as I still don't think it's a big enough a deal looking at how things will be in Mists (as opposed to how they are now), but I'm not going to make any effort to stop you. After all, I don't have anything against something that would let me hit more buttons unhindered.

    As for my qualifications, I did play Arena quite a bit on various classes (Fire and Frost Mage, Marksmanship Hunter, Arms Warrior, Holy and Ret Paladin), but I stopped before reaching high ratings because I'm in an awkward timezone for my server so I could not find reliable partners, and because I found Arena to be a merry game of "whoever uses their cooldowns in the wrong order loses". You can disagree with me on that, it's an opinion that's not up for discussion. I would much rather play Rated Battlegrounds instead if one is starting up and I'm online. I like having to think in terms of objectives as opposed to a cooldownapallooza-style deathmatch.

  10. #30
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Keep in mind that there's no developer vendetta against Paladins: it's in Blizzard's best interests that the game is as balanced as possible. All those solutions brought up in this thread have probably been at least theorized, if not actually tested internally before being discarded for one reason or another.
    Your fairly new to being a Paladin aren't you? This game has never been properly balanced and Ret is about as close to balanced as Monks are on beta. We are semi strong in 1 area we get nerfed and were weak in another area they ignore. I'm sorry but Blizzard has proven time and time again they fail at balancing and more importantly they have proven that unless we raise a huge stink about it they will release Ret in the worst shape possible be it OP broken or just UP broken.

    This is a huge issue and nothing you posted has anything to do with it there is no reason what so ever to make judgement a spell instead of a melee mechanic. Rolling censure with judgement refreshing if they feel they need to correct that fine. But judgement still needs to stack truth on the build up or this change is 5 steps in the wrong direction that we just barely got out of.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Lots of possible reasons:

    Because Exorcism is instant-cast and limited by a resettable cooldown, thus giving Paladins better ranged damage. Because Judgment isn't a throwaway damage skill that occasionally procs Divine Purpose anymore and instead got turned into a Holy Power generator with a damage component. Because Censure itself lost its interaction with Judgment, so you don't get bigger Judgments on a target with Censure stacked on it and without that interaction Censure itself is a fairly inconsequential DoT. Because Retribution ramp-up time was reduced considerably. Because Retribution doesn't lose quite as much damage running Seal of Justice anymore.

    It could be due to any of those reasons. Or some other we haven't been told. Keep in mind that there's no developer vendetta against Paladins: it's in Blizzard's best interests that the game is as balanced as possible. All those solutions brought up in this thread have probably been at least theorized, if not actually tested internally before being discarded for one reason or another. And no, they can't tells us everything that's been right or wrong about an idea and why it's not implemented because we'd both pick on their words until the original meaning was completely lost and having to document every little thing like that for public consumption would slow things down even further. Blizzard's development process is iterative, and even if we don't see what they're doing behind the curtains, it doesn't mean there aren't things being done. And they have to look at things on a much better picture than we do. That implies doing a lot of things we on the ground thing are stupid, for the sake of balance or internal consistency to reduce bugs and make sure the system scales properly as the game evolves. Big changes like the ones in Mists come at a price, you know?

    Speaking of bigger pictures and big changes, we can't just look at Judgment or Censure in a vacuum. The damage that was lost in one place has to turn up somewhere else. The procs that it provided will have to go somewhere else as well if they are to stay in the game. It's the same argument people who don't want Inquisition don't seem to grasp: even if the sources of damage are switched around, the damage itself has to remain constant. And Judgment being silenced is still not a big deal. It's not a proc-based ability. There's no window of opportunity to use it. Someone who silences you delays your Holy Power generation for a few seconds (which I'm sure is enough to end an Arena match), assuming Judgment isn't on cooldown (and it should be), but if you do make it through you're only 1 GCD away from all the damage you would have done and HP you would have generated with it if you hadn't been silenced.

    Is that unacceptable to you? Well, then you're in your right to lobby for all non-healing Paladin spells to be exempt from silences. While you are at that, ask for that for Enhancement Shamans. I'll not be grabbing a pitchfork to join you in the siege of Blizzard headquarters for it, as I still don't think it's a big enough a deal looking at how things will be in Mists (as opposed to how they are now), but I'm not going to make any effort to stop you. After all, I don't have anything against something that would let me hit more buttons unhindered.

    As for my qualifications, I did play Arena quite a bit on various classes (Fire and Frost Mage, Marksmanship Hunter, Arms Warrior, Holy and Ret Paladin), but I stopped before reaching high ratings because I'm in an awkward timezone for my server so I could not find reliable partners, and because I found Arena to be a merry game of "whoever uses their cooldowns in the wrong order loses". You can disagree with me on that, it's an opinion that's not up for discussion. I would much rather play Rated Battlegrounds instead if one is starting up and I'm online. I like having to think in terms of objectives as opposed to a cooldownapallooza-style deathmatch.
    Sorry but this attitude is ignorant,and on top of that arrogant which makes it very annoying.
    If you think Blizzard is always right on what they do you don't even know the basics of how this works.
    Countless times has Blizzard used player feedback on changes they made in the beta or in new patches to revert or rework those unappreciated changes.Blizzard are also just humans,they've made errors that were massively silly and gamebreaking.

    On top of that saying there's no vendetta agaisn't rets,obviously there isn't but you must be new to the game or the class.Blizzard is a specialist at screwing rets over with ''good intentions''.This judgement change being their latest ''good willed changed.''
    This condescending attitude of barking ''you're wrong cause Blizzard is always right'' should stop immediately,cause suddenly your opinion is not just your opinion,but you're completely right because you're speaking for Blizzard?
    It's unnoticed trolling and if there was any good mod around you'd have an infraction.
    Last edited by ZRebellion; 2012-07-25 at 06:35 AM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Sorry but this attitude is ignorant,and on top of that arrogant which makes it very annoying.
    If you think Blizzard is always right on what they do you don't even know the basics of how this works.
    Countless times has Blizzard used player feedback on changes they made in the beta or in new patches to revert or rework those unappreciated changes.Blizzard are also just humans,they've made errors that were massively silly and gamebreaking.

    On top of that saying there's no vendetta agaisn't rets,obviously there isn't but you must be new to the game or the class.Blizzard is a specialist at screwing rets over with ''good intentions''.This judgement change being their latest ''good willed changed.''
    This condescending attitude of barking ''you're wrong cause Blizzard is always right'' should stop immediately,cause suddenly your opinion is not just your opinion,but you're completely right because you're speaking for Blizzard?
    It's unnoticed trolling and if there was any good mod around you'd have an infraction.
    This kind of argument is exactly the reason we've gone for a while without Blue posts in Wrath. Where did I say that Blizzard doesn't make mistakes? I said they probably tested a lot of different options before they gave what we have in the Beta right now. Yes, they're humans and yes they've made mistakes and yes they have changed things based on player feedback. That does not mean they are idiots/out to get us. This is a huge game, other classes/specs also say they keep getting the short end of the stick all the time (Shamans come to mind, so do Beast Mastery Hunters, and a couple others).

    Also, why did you so charitably forget to read the part in which I say "you're in your right to lobby for all non-healing Paladin spells to be exempt from silences"? If you want to make a strong point to them that Judgment should be reverted to what it was, please go right ahead. But presenting reasonable arguments without attacking people makes it far more likely that what you have to say will get through the Blues and to the devs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    This is a huge issue and nothing you posted has anything to do with it there is no reason what so ever to make judgement a spell instead of a melee mechanic. Rolling censure with judgement refreshing if they feel they need to correct that fine. But judgement still needs to stack truth on the build up or this change is 5 steps in the wrong direction that we just barely got out of.
    Why must Judgment stack Censure? I'm not trolling you, this is an honest question. I've seen a lot of people in this thread saying that it should, but no reasons why other than that silly multidotting thing that was clearly not intended.

    Speaking in terms of class mechanics and gameplay and ignoring numbers: what is the use of Judgment proccing Censure in the current Beta Paladin toolbox? In which way would Judgment proccing censure make the Ret rotation/PvP experience more interesting in the Beta? The Devs don't just change things around for the sake of doing so (and that's something Rogues have been complaining about: too few changes in some areas). "Because that's how it's been so far" is not a reason. Mists has been a huge exercise in streamlining rotations and get rid of holdover mechanics from four different iterations of the game. The argument you have to make to be heard is why, exactly, is stacking Censure with Judgment is more fun to you than what we have on the beta, now that Seal of Truth/Censure isn't propped up by a bunch of other interactions, and why the current model doesn't work for you.


    PS/EDIT: just so I don't appear to be a Blizzard fan-boy even more than I already seem to look like, here's a small sample of the things I disagree with Blizzard about. I'm one of those people who think flying mounts have ruined the game. I hate how Warlocks turned out in Cataclysm with a burning passion (they were my favorite class in Wrath, and I'm looking forward to playing them again in Mists). I think that GoAK is a pointless skill, even if it does give you more DPS. I think Focus on Hunters is a great idea, but that having to be spamming something at all times grates me to no end so I'll be going for another expansion without playing my Hunter. Also, Inquisition (and it's cousins in the Rogue and Druid classes) can go die in a fire as far as I'm concerned.
    Last edited by Holtzmann; 2012-07-25 at 09:51 AM.

  13. #33
    This kind of argument is exactly the reason we've gone for a while without Blue posts in Wrath. Where did I say that Blizzard doesn't make mistakes? I said they probably tested a lot of different options before they gave what we have in the Beta right now. Yes, they're humans and yes they've made mistakes and yes they have changed things based on player feedback. That does not mean they are idiots/out to get us. This is a huge game, other classes/specs also say they keep getting the short end of the stick all the time (Shamans come to mind, so do Beast Mastery Hunters, and a couple others).

    Also, why did you so charitably forget to read the part in which I say "you're in your right to lobby for all non-healing Paladin spells to be exempt from silences"? If you want to make a strong point to them that Judgment should be reverted to what it was, please go right ahead. But presenting reasonable arguments without attacking people makes it far more likely that what you have to say will get through the Blues and to the devs.
    By saying they probably tested a lot and it's all intended you're affirming we should not be complaining obviously.You say it yourself,they do make mistakes.So why wouldn't they make a mistake on this?It's not entirely up to Blizzard to decide what a mistake is,players decide too.So when you come here and tell people their feedback is invalid because ''its all tested'' I can't believe you don't understand what is wrong with that.
    I just have to say you were the one attacking people here.With the fallacy 'Blizzard already tested everything ''thus''.I'm only setting things straight.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    By saying they probably tested a lot and it's all intended you're affirming we should not be complaining obviously.You say it yourself,they do make mistakes.So why wouldn't they make a mistake on this?It's not entirely up to Blizzard to decide what a mistake is,players decide too.So when you come here and tell people their feedback is invalid because ''its all tested'' I can't believe you don't understand what is wrong with that.
    I just have to say you were the one attacking people here.With the fallacy 'Blizzard already tested everything ''thus''.I'm only setting things straight.
    Oh, for the love of...

    I'm not coming here to say your feedback is invalid! I'm telling you that yes, you should go out there and tell them what you think of their changes! But also that you need to do that in a coherent, rational way with the sort of arguments they're known to listen to! Otherwise yes, your efforts will be wasted. Think about it this way:

    You have a soup stall in a very busy street. Some random guy you've never seen before tastes your soup, grimaces and throws it on the ground while saying that it sucks and that you should never make soup again. Another completely random guy tastes the soup and then, in a calm and friendly way, tells you that it could use a bit less salt and that the meat feels too chewy, and that he'd use a different variety of potato instead. Which one do you ignore (or most likely tell to bugger off) and which do you ask for explanations and/or more opinions next time he has some of your soup?

    Same thing with talking to Blizzard. The Blues do refer general feedback trends to the developers, but they themselves have stated that they are far more likely to take that feedback to where it's needed if the thread in which it's posted is rational, with well-supported arguments and a minimum of bashing. I'm not saying you shouldn't give them your feedback, I'm asking that you save everybody the trouble and do it right. They have accepted constructive criticism a bunch of times in this Beta alone, but all those situations happened because people were clear on what they wanted and didn't insult anyone on the way there. Saying Blizzard has gotten thing wrong before as if it's guarantee they'll get it wrong again if we don't scream bloody murder about every little thing is just as big a fallacy as what you seem to think I'm doing.

  15. #35
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Why must Judgment stack Censure? I'm not trolling you, this is an honest question. I've seen a lot of people in this thread saying that it should, but no reasons why other than that silly multidotting thing that was clearly not intended.

    Speaking in terms of class mechanics and gameplay and ignoring numbers: what is the use of Judgment proccing Censure in the current Beta Paladin toolbox? In which way would Judgment proccing censure make the Ret rotation/PvP experience more interesting in the Beta? The Devs don't just change things around for the sake of doing so (and that's something Rogues have been complaining about: too few changes in some areas). "Because that's how it's been so far" is not a reason.
    Actually yes they make a lot of changes without thinking about the adverse effects it doesn't matter it you believe it or not you can stick your head in the clouds and ignore it but the rest of us understand how game breaking it is. We sure don't trust they are just going to make a new attack or some replacement method to build stacks it's going to leave us shit out of luck.

    Who said multi dotting wasn't intended? They had no problem with it when people were talking about multi dotting. Did you ever play Ret when judgement didn't build stacks? Do you have any idea how long it took to get to a 5 stack? 18 seconds, That's right 18 seconds before you were ready to use CD's the ramp up time was horrible they changed judgement to address that issue. They knew it was being used to roll censure on multi target they even talked about it rewarding the better players that wanted to do that.

    Now that 18 seconds in MoP will be 22-24 seconds because we lost so much Haste between losing Seal of Truth Glyph and having to reforge into Expertise and losing jotp. This is a game breaking change for Ret regardless if you want to admit it and if we aren't vocal about it we will be stuck being shit for the first tier again.
    Last edited by Requital; 2012-07-25 at 11:01 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  16. #36
    Diablo 3 has proven that the guys at Blizzard are not very skilled at playing. As far as I know did they only play to Act 1 Inferno and everything beyond that was not tested practically. So, due to the lack of diving deep enough into certain aspects of their games, they just miss a lot of things players would never miss. Thus player feedback is something Blizzard has to rely on heavily. If this change to censure is not reverted, if we keep being vitims to the slow of NS, counterspells etc pp.. Then the paladin player feedback was ignored once again. And this would not be justifyable anymore.

    If MoP is just another addon with a screwed up ret spec, I will leave this game forever for I don't have time for WoW's PvE and only play PvP. GW2 would make leaving fairly easy. I am just sick of the obvious problems ret always has and that never get remedied. No, the problems rather grow in size just like the issue with Judgement becoming a spell.

    Sometimes I have to believe that Blizzard does not think ahead. It just IS obvious that right now ret will have huuuuuuuuge problems in pvp. And that's only because Paladins are vulnerable to every shit. We don't even have a chance of getting out of fear. Warriors do and Dks do so, too. But Ret.. Ah, I don't wanna get too deep into it. I am furious because it is sooooo obvious what will happen to ret if the mentioned issues do not get changed during beta...

    And then again I have only the european Blizzard to turn to and that's like talking to a wall. I doubt that they have any influence over the NA guys. I don't have that feeling at least and that's why I consider it a waste of time to even write something there. And I am tired.. I am so tired of dealing with this "ret is screwed" thingy. The seventh year of me being a ret in WoW is about to begin. Seven years and still the paladin seems to be the most nostalgic class of all, since it conserved its weaknesses over time like no other class. I had a good feeling about ret until I heard about the censure thing, the spellhaste thing, the judgement is a spell thing.. We still don't have a gap closer, but the closest thing to this gets blocked by a counterspell? WHAT THE F*CK?
    Last edited by JayJay09; 2012-07-25 at 01:02 PM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayJay09 View Post
    Diablo 3 has proven...
    Because the D3 development team is the same one working on WoW. Don't set up logical strawmen.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayJay09 View Post
    If MoP is just another addon with a screwed up ret spec, I will leave this game forever for I don't have time for WoW's PvE and only play PvP. GW2 would make leaving fairly easy. I am just sick of the obvious problems ret always has and that never get remedied. No, the problems rather grow in size just like the issue with Judgement becoming a spell.
    Funny thing about the human consciousness, you tend to see issues where you expect them. Does the spec have issues? Yes, of course it does, just like many other specs in the game. Are they as big as people make them out to be? No, of course not. That's what Holtzmann is trying to say: if people didn't fly off the handle and whine and cry without logical backup and numbers, Blizzard would be able to pull more relevant data out of user comments. As it is, they have to weigh the lost productivity of wading through bullshit posts on the forums against the possible valuable posts they might find.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayJay09 View Post
    Sometimes I have to believe that Blizzard does not think ahead. It just IS obvious that right now ret will have huuuuuuuuge problems in pvp. And that's only because Paladins are vulnerable to every shit. We don't even have a chance of getting out of fear. Warriors do and Dks do so, too. But Ret.. Ah, I don't wanna get too deep into it. I am furious because it is sooooo obvious what will happen to ret if the mentioned issues do not get changed during beta...
    You don't create and maintain a multi-million dollar a month game without planning ahead on anything. We can get out of fear with Divine Shield (admittedly, I think the ability needs to just go away, as it's hell to balance something like that), granted it's on a long CD. Warriors and Death Knights have other utilities because we can heal. Whether you like it or not, we have to be balanced around our ability to heal ourselves and others.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayJay09 View Post
    And then again I have only the european Blizzard to turn to and that's like talking to a wall. I doubt that they have any influence over the NA guys. I don't have that feeling at least and that's why I consider it a waste of time to even write something there.
    Again with the whole multi-million dollar game: they're not going to ignore a sizable chunk of subscribers posting on a forum. They may not post, but you can sure as whatever heaven or hell you ascribe to, they have somebody reading it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayJay09 View Post
    And I am tired.. I am so tired of dealing with this "ret is screwed" thingy. The seventh year of me being a ret in WoW is about to begin. Seven years and still the paladin seems to be the most nostalgic class of all, since it conserved its weaknesses over time like no other class. I had a good feeling about ret until I heard about the censure thing, the spellhaste thing, the judgement is a spell thing.. We still don't have a gap closer, but the closest thing to this gets blocked by a coutnerspell? WHAT THE F*CK?
    You're tired? Then stop flipping out. Raging about these changes is tiring. Ret is not screwed, nor has it been for some time. Censure isn't as big a part of our damage as it used to be. The spellhaste thing has existed since Sanctity of Battle was implemented (and now SoB is far more awesome, since it affects more abilities along with GCD and CD). Finally, Judgment being a spell will not be as big a deal. All of the PvP examples you're giving seem like they're assuming you have no help from anybody else, which is flat out false in the PvP scenarios they balance against.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Oh, for the love of...

    I'm not coming here to say your feedback is invalid! I'm telling you that yes, you should go out there and tell them what you think of their changes! But also that you need to do that in a coherent, rational way with the sort of arguments they're known to listen to! Otherwise yes, your efforts will be wasted. Think about it this way:

    You have a soup stall in a very busy street. Some random guy you've never seen before tastes your soup, grimaces and throws it on the ground while saying that it sucks and that you should never make soup again. Another completely random guy tastes the soup and then, in a calm and friendly way, tells you that it could use a bit less salt and that the meat feels too chewy, and that he'd use a different variety of potato instead. Which one do you ignore (or most likely tell to bugger off) and which do you ask for explanations and/or more opinions next time he has some of your soup?

    Same thing with talking to Blizzard. The Blues do refer general feedback trends to the developers, but they themselves have stated that they are far more likely to take that feedback to where it's needed if the thread in which it's posted is rational, with well-supported arguments and a minimum of bashing. I'm not saying you shouldn't give them your feedback, I'm asking that you save everybody the trouble and do it right. They have accepted constructive criticism a bunch of times in this Beta alone, but all those situations happened because people were clear on what they wanted and didn't insult anyone on the way there. Saying Blizzard has gotten thing wrong before as if it's guarantee they'll get it wrong again if we don't scream bloody murder about every little thing is just as big a fallacy as what you seem to think I'm doing.
    What did I just read?O.o
    Where did you see me posting any incoherent and irrational ''feedback'',let alone any feedback about this change?
    I'm the one here telling you to change your posting attitude.You shouldn't tell people they're wrong because Blizzard knows what they are doing,so let me remind you you're the one throwing fallacies.
    I never said Blizzard is wrong on this change because they made errors,I said Blizzard isn't always right.Which is entirely different and an attempt at trying to dissolve your fallacy.

    You didn't seem to get it since you did it again with Requital.
    ''The Devs don't just change things around for the sake of doing so''
    So here we learn that Requital is wrong because he has no idea why the devs made this change and they probably had a good reason?
    And again you show you blindly pick the side of Blizzard because ''they know what they are doing'',not only that you also use it to try to make others opinion look bad.You're either clueless or you're trolling.

    I don't mean to derail the thread but with the problem with people like you is that you actually get taken seriously and any constructive discussion stops because people believe your fallacy or they try to argue with it,and arguing with a fallacy leads to nothing.
    Last edited by ZRebellion; 2012-07-25 at 01:28 PM.

  19. #39
    @ Malthanis: Well.. Losing the ability to apply a dot from range is a hit in the face against rogues. I liked that possibility. And it wasn't too strong since rogues were able to counter it.
    Every fight in general will lead to the exact same problem we had in cata: ramp up censure every time there is something involved that does not allow us to dps.

    But I could live with the censure thing. Making judgement a spell, however, is utterly retarded. It is neccessary to be able to judge while countered, because if we weren't able to do that we only had CS left and we prolly couldn't even move.. You may also throw out a TV if the Holy Power is right. Besides.. Our ability to heal ourselves comes along with a rather big loss in dmg. Judgement a spell = really really bad and there is nothing that could contradict this. And then spellhaste.. Oh yeah.. Judgement, HoW, Exo.. Everything scales with haste and we will have to pursue a set amount of haste because of this. That is quite anooying since I hated haste since it was introduced. But that's not the point. The point is that abilities like necrotic strike will lenghten the cd on respective abilities by 30%. That is just sick. And that is something that has to be adressed the moment it becomes a problem. Because if it doesn't it will fall behind on the priority list and might be forgotton. In cases like this threads like these come to life.

    I am talking about changes that make the whole class feel weird. That reduce the possibilities of the class greatly. That destroys perfectly fine mechanics that for once made sense.

    I don't have to come up with numbers for this. Logic just tells you what is broken. Logic and a bit knowledge of 2k+ arena.
    Last edited by JayJay09; 2012-07-25 at 01:28 PM.

  20. #40
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    I'm the one here telling you to change your posting attitude.You shouldn't tell people they're wrong because Blizzard knows what they are doing,so let me remind you you're the one throwing fallacies.
    He's not saying people are wrong, and he's certainly not pulling the "Blizzard is right because Blizzard!" attitude. He's saying that the devs are far more likely to take feedback that is calm and logical, rather than raging tirades (which is why he provided the soup stall example).

    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    I never said Blizzard is wrong on this change because they made errors,I said Blizzard isn't always right.Which is entirely different and an attempt at trying to dissolve your fallacy.
    Then why are they wrong? Numbers, logs, logical arguments, at least some of these are necessary to back up claims that this change will cause problems. Even if it seems blatantly obvious to you, it may not seem that way to others, and having proof adds legitimacy to your claims.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-25 at 09:49 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JayJay09 View Post
    @ Malthanis: Well.. Losing the ability to apply a dot from range is a hit in the face against rogues. I liked that possibility. And it wasn't too strong since rogues were able to counter it.
    Every fight in general will lead to the exact same problem we had in cata: ramp up censure every time there is something involved that does not allow us to dps.
    The point is that our DPS will be balanced around this fact. We shouldn't be losing damage because of it, because Censure isn't as big a part of our DPS anymore. Judgment is no longer affected by the stack count, which was one of the biggest reasons Censure stacking mattered. We also have a greater number of ranged abilities to counter kiting, along with a more effective toolkit against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayJay09 View Post
    And then spellhaste.. Oh yeah.. Judgement, HoW, Exo.. Everything scales with haste and we will have to pursue a set amount of haste because of this. That is quite anooying since I hated haste since it was introduced. But that's not the point. The point is that abilities like necrotic strike will lenghten the cd on respective abilities by 30%. That is just sick.
    The whole point of haste was that it generates more resources for DPS, rather than just be a passive (and usually minor) DPS increase. That also opens it up as a viable means of attack (like a DK using Necrotic Strike). It adds depth to the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayJay09 View Post
    Making judgement a spell, however, is utterly retarded. It is neccessary to be able to judge while countered, because if we weren't able to do that we only had CS left and we prolly couldn't even move.. You may also throw out a TV if the Holy Power is right. Besides.. Our ability to heal ourselves comes along with a rather big loss in dmg. Judgement a spell = really really bad and there is nothing that could contradict this.

    I am talking about changes that make the whole class feel weird. That reduce the possibilities of the class greatly. That destroys perfectly fine mechanics that for once made sense.

    I don't have to come up with numbers for this. Logic just tells you what is broken. Logic and a bit knowledge of 2k+ arena.
    Sorry to splice up your post, but I felt I needed to to illustrate a point. The underlined bits are the issue at hand: examples need to be provided. Logs need to be looked at. The last bit about arena knowledge, specifically: how many people who play this game have that knowledge? Without numbers and examples, you can't adequately express why this is an issue to people that don't have the same experience.

    Like I said, even if it's blatantly obvious to you, you still need the examples to support your point.

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