Sha of Anger, Arena of Annihilation, Blue Posts, Blizzard at gamescom, Blizzard News

[Deleted]

What the dev is saying about the brick walls is utter BS. At the moment, they hit a brick wall and then immediately see it nerfed to the ground without any chance to improve their gameplay. The way they are nerfing at the moment just means that in the future more and more nerfs will be added because Blizzard is essentially not allowing the majority of the player base to learn how to play their own game.

[Deleted]

Are you seriously comparing having a job, or a diploma (and the motivation to have those things), with defeating a virtual boss in a virtual world?

Yes because it's not about what real and what is not (this counter argument is getting old btw and it always misses the point). The comparison is not about that this is real and this is not, the comparision is about a prinicple to strive for something in order to get something instead of getting rewarded for half assed effort just as well as doing it decently or even better.

You sir, have already won the 'WoW-Zombie' title: a human being who has completely lost touch with the real world because of addiction to WoW. I guess the rest of us should start reading http://blogs.cdc.gov/publichealthmat...ie-apocalypse/

[Granyala]

just like in real life you put effort to gain something, just as much you should put in virtual world effort to get something in virtual world.

Wow! I think that speaks loads in and of itself and doesn't need any rebuttal. I find that point of view very troubling, from a real world standpoint.

Why?

I totally agree with him there. If not, they could just send us the newest Tier via mail upon patch release. Now that would be one hell of a boring game to play. You have to put effort in EVERY game. Even if you just play the Crysis 2 solo player campaign.

The amount of effort you put into a game should be recognized at some level. In Crysis 2 you advance in the story in a multi player game you get points in MMOs you get stuff others don't have.
The wish to have that stuff creates the drive to play a dungeon multiple times in the first place.

The amount of "work" must be carefully balanced though, that peeps are not encouraged to lose their entire life in a game to get that one thing they want.


However I resent the notion that someone killing a boss easier than you half a year later devalues your efforts. It's just not so.

[Deleted]

Please don't try to act stupid now, I know you re not. We're talking about binary outcomes here.
It's a raid boss. It either dies or it does not die. It dying is rewarded, it not dying is punished. Yes it IS a waste of time to wipe if you mathematically don't stand a chance.

Same with the race. It would be a waste of my time to race against a F1-Vehicle Pilot because I DON'T STAND A CHANCE IN HELL.

And no: getting your ass handed to you over and over and over and over again is NOT considered FUN from the majority of the gaming community, thats WHY games change over time.

How about gamers change over time by improving? That worked back in the day and nobody was whining.

WRONG! You can't get a better PC right now as you can't get better gear right now. Dude that was the ENTIRE POINT of the example. Funny how you didn't get that.

Just as you are wrong and keep ignoring the "prinicple" thing I been telling all along.

They stated it VERY often in the past and Drazztal is basically stating it right now again.

I rest my case then. God forbid if gaming evolves into anything more then stress sponge.

Well thank you, for eliminating yourself from the discussion.
If It was o.k. to say this to the casuals back then it's 100% ok to say it to the wannabe-hardcores RIGHT NOW.

DEAL WITH IT!

Except that casuals and actual hardcores are not the same thing.

Achievements for doing stuff w/o the buff, hell even trow in a e-peen title and a mount which you remove upon entering a new patch cycle, I could live with that.

That is what I was proposing all along. It's funny how Blizz needed so long to finally get the message.

---------- Post added 2012-07-27 at 03:07 PM ----------

Wow! I think that speaks loads in and of itself and doesn't need any rebuttal. I find that point of view very troubling, from a real world standpoint.

Oh yeah I forgot... Gaming is not allowed to be more then child's play because that wouldn't feel like with someone and whoever dares to do so otherwise deserves medical treatment... silly me.

That's a poor analogy. Racers are limited to racers. Anyone can participate in a video game if they can download it on their computer.

Focus less on the "flaws" of the analogy and more on anwsering the question which follows it.

Challenging content is entirely subjective.

Thing is that this is the constant anwser whenever the game lowers it's challenge agian and agian and agian rather than staying the same so it wouldnt be subjective anymore. That would be nice dont you think?

There are rules. You don't like them, but the rules are there.

/sarcasm on in case you did not noticed
Rules of proper behaviour? Yeah Im pretty sure they have some power over 2h protection agianst kicks people who keep breaking them
Rules of common courtesy? Sorry... no place for that, my ilvl is more important.
/sarcam off

On a serious note. Do you know of any rules that keeps WoW community good and aspirant to greater challenge? Because I'm either blind or deaf and cant see them at all.

---------- Post added 2012-07-27 at 03:10 PM ----------

You sir, have already won the 'WoW-Zombie' title: a human being who has completely lost touch with the real world because of addiction to WoW. I guess the rest of us should start reading http://blogs.cdc.gov/publichealthmat...ie-apocalypse/

Thank you very much for this (not) prestigious award. I shall put it next to my English Filology certificate I have recently achieved. Yes indeed... god forbid game dare to challenge people and reward for taking the challenge because otherwise you are considered a zombie by the mainstream.

[Dvaldin]

Why?

I totally agree with him there. If not, they could just send us the newest Tier via mail upon patch release. Now that would be one hell of a boring game to play. You have to put effort in EVERY game. Even if you just play the Crysis 2 solo player campaign.

The amount of effort you put into a game should be recognized at some level. In Crysis 2 you advance in the story in a multi player game you get points in MMOs you get stuff others don't have.
The wish to have that stuff creates the drive to play a dungeon multiple times in the first place.

The amount of "work" must be carefully balanced though, that peeps are not encouraged to lose their entire life in a game to get that one thing they want.


However I resent the notion that someone killing a boss easier than you half a year later devalues your efforts. It's just not so.

Perhaps you misunderstand, it's not about putting effort into it -- it's putting as much effort into it as you do into real life. That's what I have a big problem with.

[Koohii]

What would the spirit of competition been anyhow? A bulldog? A mini-queen? A raging Scottish guy? A little guy in a bowler hat?

A bulldog in a bowler hat! That would be awesome! Make it happen Blizzard! Or a Scottish drunk pet that randomly fights other critters/pets!

And good to see they're reading player concerns and addressing the monk problems.

[Deleted]

Why?

I totally agree with him there. If not, they could just send us the newest Tier via mail upon patch release. Now that would be one hell of a boring game to play. You have to put effort in EVERY game. Even if you just play the Crysis 2 solo player campaign.

The amount of effort you put into a game should be recognized at some level. In Crysis 2 you advance in the story in a multi player game you get points in MMOs you get stuff others don't have.
The wish to have that stuff creates the drive to play a dungeon multiple times in the first place.

The amount of "work" must be carefully balanced though, that peeps are not encouraged to lose their entire life in a game to get that one thing they want.


However I resent the notion that someone killing a boss easier than you half a year later devalues your efforts. It's just not so.

I see we agree here so I guess it's best If I seal it with why I think it does devalue someone's effort. Also sorry in for any rage I induced in you.
While it is true that It's not entirely accurate that your efforts are completly devalued as there's such a thing as time stamp, it's without a doubt a clear proof that someone did a content without buff or part of current one. However... It's hardly visible and noticable, nobody really points it out unless it is very visible like World First or Realm First to certain extent. Because of that post buff kills are hardly distinguishable from post buff kills without buff.

Some people including me do not like it. As such I very often adhere to the idea of seperate no buffed achievement to distinguish those who did it in it's original form without any kind of help. It's also not in a "I want to rub it in your face" hostile manner but "Hey! look at this! Try this if you're up to it" friendly manner. I do not wish for competetion driven by jealosy and feeling of inferiority, however many people seem to recieve it only in the latter mentioned way, which saddens me really because we could do better than that.

So suma sumarum:
Yes... in theory buffed kills do not devalue non-buffed kills, however it is directly opposite in practice.

---------- Post added 2012-07-27 at 03:29 PM ----------

Perhaps you misunderstand, it's not about putting effort into it -- it's putting as much effort into it as you do into real life. That's what I have a big problem with.

How can you really distinguish who puts how much effort into both things. Personally I think people find real life effort bigger simply because it's real but not because it's bigger. If anything real life effort is more stressful because of its consequences of failing rather then it being fundamentally more hard. Here's an example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Excel_chart.PNG
You dont know whether it is about rogue DPS build up curve or a very important graph showing valuable data you need in your finacial company.

Without knowing whether this curve shows this or that can you judge how much effort you need to learn it or gather data from it?

[Granyala]

How about gamers change over time by improving? That worked back in the day and nobody was whining.

2 Problems:

1) Blizzard would actually have to present the gamers with a learning CURVE, which they never got right, because it takes a lot of design effort.
Right now you have:
-Faceroll leveling
-Faceroll 5mans
-Faceroll Heroic 5mans (Twilight ones)
-Faceroll normal mode (My Guild cleared DS nomral in 2-3 IDs. Remember thats the same guild that needs the 25% debuff for spineHC, we are most certainly NOT hardcore in any sense of the word)
- HARD Heroic raids. (I think we can agree on the fact that w/o debuff DS25 HC is pretty hard)

People learn incremental. Sometimes these increments are so small that the learning person doesn't even realize that it's improving. People (unless in extreme cases, faced with death or something) never learn in huge leaps. Yet huge leaps is what Blizzard expects in the transition from normal 25man to heroic 25man.

2) Many players don't want to learn to be good. Blizzard wants to keep these players subscribed to make a profit. -> Game has to be nerfed to get these peeps stuff to do so they continue to pay.

It's nothing personal, it's just business.

Because of that post buff kills are hardly distinguishable from post buff kills without buff.
Some people including me do not like it. As such I very often adhere to the idea of seperate no buffed achievement to distinguish those who did it in it's original form without any kind of help

Agreed. The "doing it w/o buff" not being recognized in any way (not even date after the buff went live) is a lame move from Blizzard, it already was a lame move back in the days of ICC. Peeps should be rewarded somehow for doing it "uphill in snow barefoot both ways". If it's not with gear, it should be with achievements, hell that's the entire point of the stupid achievement system, to be able to reward players with other stuff than epics. (Not sure, but I think Achievements like these are in Beta?)

It's also not in a "I want to rub it in your face" hostile manner but "Hey! look at this! Try this if you're up to it" friendly manner. I do not wish for competetion driven by jealosy and feeling of inferiority, however many people seem to recieve it only in the latter mentioned way, which saddens me really because we could do better than that.

That's a nice sentiment. Honestly. I personally wouldn't be challenged by it, but I also wouldn't be jealous. It's just me, I'm not a person who seeks challenges. I don't study engineering to challenge myself I study b/c I'm curious about technology. Same with WoW.

Sure, I want a boss to be reasonably hard. I hate LFR because the boss dies in the first pull. I still remember Yogg saron fondly. First times we were there he basically just said: "Well nice try, here are your asses, now GET OFF MY LAWN!"
But I also want to be sure that my group CAN defeat a boss. If that's not the case, my motivation to progress on that boss is zero. zip. (e.g.: Setup, imagine you need 5 rogues minimum and you only have one in your guild, attempting that boss would be futile)

Also sorry in for any rage I induced in you.

Naah no rage at all. I just love heated discussions. If I offended you or came over as furious I apologize. English is, as you probably already noticed, not my native language. ^_^

Perhaps you misunderstand, it's not about putting effort into it -- it's putting as much effort into it as you do into real life. That's what I have a big problem with.

Just like content difficulty, the amount of effort perceived is entirely subjective.
E.g.: Rolling alts for freak setups may be too much for peeps like me, but for others it's just a natural thing to do in order to overcome a challenge.

[Deleted]

It's crazy how gamers have changed so much over the 6 years of this game. All in all, I think I'm done with this game. Mists looks ok, but after their failures with Dragon soul AND them saying that Dragon soul is a good indication of how they want raids, I don't think this game is for me anymore. Blizzard as a game company, to me, are way overhyped, for their RPGs anyway.

[Harazi]

2 Problems:

1) Blizzard would actually have to present the gamers with a learning CURVE, which they never got right, because it takes a lot of design effort.
Right now you have:
-Faceroll leveling
-Faceroll 5mans
-Faceroll Heroic 5mans (Twilight ones)
-Faceroll normal mode (My Guild cleared DS nomral in 2-3 IDs. Remember thats the same guild that needs the 25% debuff for spineHC, we are most certainly NOT hardcore in any sense of the word)
- HARD Heroic raids. (I think we can agree on the fact that w/o debuff DS25 HC is pretty hard)

People learn incremental. Sometimes these increments are so small that the learning person doesn't even realize that it's improving. People (unless in extreme cases, faced with death or something) never learn in huge leaps. Yet huge leaps is what Blizzard expects in the transition from normal 25man to heroic 25man.

The bigger problem is, the community doesn't help new players/bad players. In a game such as this, players are supposed to help each other learn and grow. Hence the term community. Problem is, the game is full of assholes and pricks. Usually when players see someone who doesn't know what they're doing, they rail against that player and make him/her feel like shit. I was lucky in that I've met some wonderful fellow warriors who guided my hand and helped me get better. Honestly, nowadays, I see someone complain about players who do poorly or don't know things, I automatically assume that guy has never bothered to help and mentor others.

[Dvaldin]

Oh yeah I forgot... Gaming is not allowed to be more then child's play because that wouldn't feel like with someone and whoever dares to do so otherwise deserves medical treatment... silly me.

Just because I do not warrant gaming as being comparable to real life does not mean I believe it "child's play".

Focus less on the "flaws" of the analogy and more on anwsering the question which follows it.

Analogies are always flawed and fall short. Personally, I can't stand them anymore because they can be twisted back and forth, every which way (you and I have both seen this happen many, many times). I believe that arguments should stick to the specific point without using such examples.

Thing is that this is the constant anwser whenever the game lowers it's challenge agian and agian and agian rather than staying the same so it wouldnt be subjective anymore. That would be nice dont you think?

The real challenge for hardcores lies in beating bosses before they're nerfed. To me, that's what the challenge is. It doesn't lessen their achievement. If they have a problem with others beating it at a later date with not as much effort, well...you know, I don't know why there's a focus on what other people are doing. To make sense, it should be about their own personal experience...want the challenge, then turn off the debuff. You can argue as much as you want about how that's unreasonable, but that's the fact. The impetus is on the player to make that challenge. To make things worse, I've heard as a rebuttal, "Why would I make things more difficult for me if I don't have to??"- which makes me want to pull my hair out. I mean, isn't that what you're saying? That you want it more difficult or challenging? The statement just undermines their whole argument.

I will and have before, however, concede that there is lacking a real motivating factor to do so, and that's a problem. I find it strange that some achievement, even if it's just a Feat of Strength, hasn't been added to encourage attempting something without the debuff...so, I do hear where you're coming from at least in that regard.

On a serious note. Do you know of any rules that keeps WoW community good and aspirant to greater challenge? Because I'm either blind or deaf and cant see them at all.

I wish there was a way to regulate behavior, but that's difficult enough to do in real life. In a virtual world with anonymity, it's virtually impossible. lol. Ah, I crack myself up.

No, I've played with some folks at times who literally just suck. I'm not going to call them out for it or anything. I mean, they're playing to have fun and far be it from me to make someone feel bad in a video game...though, on rare occasions, I've had to take some action if I'm leading a raid because they're a detriment to the others who are pulling their weight.

Of course, there's a point where that "greater challenge" can only go so far until the next patch...and, to be honest, I believe that the debuffs do inspire more players, though lesser skilled, to aspire to a greater challenge. I don't believe they would even attempt them with nerfs, and it assists to help them learn mechanics they should've learned, you know, in the previous patch (new players/raiders just entering the experience are a rare exception). The ones who really suck still are not going to be able to beat them (unless we're talking Morchok, but I consider that an anomaly). I believe without the nerfs, many wouldn't even attempt it.

Still, there should be a motivating factor implemented to do attempts with the nerfs.

On another note, I believe these new challenge modes will be interesting to see how they turn out, and have high hopes something similar will be implemented with raiding. Don't argue those modes be nerfed. Arguments those will be nerfed do not hold muster unless that actually occurs. IF that does occur, then yes, we do have a serious problem Houston.

---------- Post added 2012-07-27 at 04:25 PM ----------

Just like content difficulty, the amount of effort perceived is entirely subjective.
E.g.: Rolling alts for freak setups may be too much for peeps like me, but for others it's just a natural thing to do in order to overcome a challenge.

Still not what I'm saying.

Maybe this will make it more clear.

If you don't put effort into real life -- you may starve, end up homeless, without a thing to your name or any number of bad things that will affect your actual quality of living.

If you don't put effort into a video game, you might wipe on a boss or offend a friend or make someone you don't know angry.

I'm not saying at all you should not put effort into playing the game. I'm saying not AS MUCH.

[Bladesyphon]

How about gamers change over time by improving? That worked back in the day and nobody was whining.

This is a very incorrect argument when used within the MMO Genre. In a Single Player game that is more balanced around skill than gear, yes, gamers change over time by improving. A player that is unable to defeat a boss in Dark Souls would, in theory, be able to defeat the boss after a number of attempts as individually he is becoming better at the game with each attempt.

In an MMO, especially one like WoW that is heavily gear heavy, this same principle rarely replies. Just because I can handle the mechanics or gear check of a boss does not mean everyone else in the raid can. That means that I won't be able to progress without leaving my raid for another, or waiting for the others to catch up, if ever.

This is why the nerfs are implemented: So players can continue to raid with an established guild of friends without feeling like they have to leave them for a guild that's more capable of clearing the content.

I rest my case then. God forbid if gaming evolves into anything more then stress sponge.

But the question is why should it? Why should the entire gaming genre completely turn into a hard core, competitive, non-relaxing hobby. That would be like telling every person who plays sports recreationaly to relieve stress that they can't do that anymore, and must play them only competitively in order to prevent the sport from becoming stagnant.

But here's the thing, and it works in WoW too: If you want to play the game for a challenge or competitively, you have that option. Turn off the Nerf in Dragon Soul, and prove to your server you can clear it without needing the nerf. This will become a lot more prevalent in Mists when you're rewarded a Feat of Strength for doing it (because for some ridiculous reason people need to have little stamps to show off that they did something).

When a nerf can be toggled on or off by the player, there is zero reason to not put it in the game for those that don't care about the competitive aspect of PvE and simply want to finish the content through it's three tiers. And as the blue poster has stated several times, and people like you and others can't grasp: Why the hell do you care if someone finishes a heroic dungeon at a 30% nerf when you can do it without one?

If you answer: "Because it takes away my feeling of accomplishment", than you aren't playing for the competitive nature or challenge of the game, you're playing to gloat yourself over others.

Oh yeah I forgot... Gaming is not allowed to be more then child's play because that wouldn't feel like with someone and whoever dares to do so otherwise deserves medical treatment... silly me.

*Sigh* No one is saying that. You're putting words in your mouth to try to prove your point. What people are saying, and rightfully so, is that not everyone wants to play a game that has an extreme amount of challenge in it, and some people enjoy the option of turning the difficulty down so they can play through the content.

And no, your response of "Oh lol they have LFR" again doesn't work in WoW. In a single player game sure, if a game has three difficulties, and a person finishes it on Easy, that can be it. They can play Normal and Hard later if they want, but that's for a personal challenge and nothing more.

The problem with WoW is that the higher difficulties award better gear (and aren't slight upgrades) to continue the progression of one's character. Some people (myself not being one of them, but I can understand the desire) like to continually progress their character. Hitting a solid wall in progression of that character becomes frustrating and un-enjoyable, and often times leads to people un-subbing, which is what the Blue Poster is trying to explain to people that don't want to accept that.

But again: Why do you care if people are getting high-end gear for less "work" than you did? You still finished the content before anyone else did, you still have that knowledge, and that should be enough. I was the first person in the US to finish Mega Man 9 (atleast according to the end-game rankings, I was ranked #1 on completion time over the staff names in the ranking screen) when it released on the Wii back in 2009. I didn't take a picture of it at the time to prove I did so, but I know I finished it first, and that was enough for me.

Why is it, than, that you can't accept other people are finishing content and getting the same rewards you are MUCH later on in the tier's life cycle. How does that even directly affect you?

The answer is: It does not, and there is zero logical rebuttal to this.

Thank you very much for this (not) prestigious award. I shall put it next to my English Filology certificate I have recently achieved. Yes indeed... god forbid game dare to challenge people and reward for taking the challenge because otherwise you are considered a zombie by the mainstream.

The game does. You're rewarded with the fact that you've finished the content before anyone else, have the gear before anyone else, and come Mists of Pandaria, will have the FoS before anyone else for finishing the content without nerfs.

What you're asking is that those rewards remain mutually exclusive to you and you only. And that is something Blizzard wont, nor ever should, do.

Even using your ridiculous example of a diploma in comparison to WoW raiding, this still applies. You may get your diploma in college before someone else you know because you are smarter than they are in that subject . But that person can and will get their diploma as well through the use of tutors and extra help to allow them to pass their classes and requirements to obtain one(the equivalent to raid nerfs in this example).

But according to you, because you got your diploma without a tutor, that person should be forced to do that as well, because if they use a tutor to help them get a diploma, it diminishes the fact that you got yours without one, right?

[Dvaldin]

Turn off the Nerf in Dragon Soul, and prove to your server you can clear it without needing the nerf. This will become a lot more prevalent in Mists when you're rewarded a Feat of Strength for doing it (because for some ridiculous reason people need to have little stamps to show off that they did something).

Is that official?

---------- Post added 2012-07-27 at 04:50 PM ----------

How can you really distinguish who puts how much effort into both things. Personally I think people find real life effort bigger simply because it's real but not because it's bigger. If anything real life effort is more stressful because of its consequences of failing rather then it being fundamentally more hard. Here's an example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Excel_chart.PNG
You dont know whether it is about rogue DPS build up curve or a very important graph showing valuable data you need in your finacial company.

Without knowing whether this curve shows this or that can you judge how much effort you need to learn it or gather data from it?

Effort: A conscious exertion of power : hard work.

I'm not personally judging how much effort they're putting into it, but if they are consciously exerting more power into determining whether their rogue DPS build up curve is adequate rather than exerting that energy toward interpreting the valuable data in their financial company ... then yes, that is a serious problem.

Effort is not just an exertion of power, it's a conscious exertion of power. You know how much effort you're putting into something. If you're putting that effort more toward a video game than you are in your actual life -- and again, this is a conscious thing you're doing -- then perhaps some serious soul searching is needed.

[Granyala]

The bigger problem is, the community doesn't help new players/bad players.

Yeah right. Almost every time I tried to help a newbie in a friendly way I just get told:

"STFU Nerd, I play how I want to! You have no RL anyway, loser."

Eventually you just stop trying to give advice, and I am not the only one. Today, you just kick said person b/c discussion is futile. Most gimpy players of today think they're perfect demigods. They need the GAME tell them not to err, not other players.

I'm not personally judging how much effort they're putting into it,

but if they are consciously exerted more power into determining whether their rogue DPS build up curve than exerting that energy toward interpreting the valuable data in their financial company ... then yes, that is a serious problem.

How do you know it's more? Oh hey you're judging right now. There are matchematical nerds out there that love doing spreadsheets. In fact by the process of creating them they actually learn how to use the programs / how to program and foster their understanding of mathematical functions. That helps them later in real life.

Is that official?

I think it's currently only datamined, not sure though.

[Dvaldin]

How do you know it's more? Oh hey you're judging right now. There are matchematical nerds out there that love doing spreadsheets. In fact by the process of creating them they actually learn how to use the programs / how to program and foster their understanding of mathematical functions. That helps them later in real life.

I'm not judging. Notice that word if? That person who's doing it knows, not me.

[SoupShandris]

Is it just me, or is Lindsey better at this than Pico? (And hotter :3)

[Dvaldin]

It's not just you, Soup. Lind's really good at it.

[Deleted]

Something about the Blizzard news video made me lol. "And with a prize pool of over 20k, you can be sure players are gonna bring their A-game"

Why would Blizzard only throw a 20k prize at SC2 when Valve can afford to throw a 1 Mil prize at a DotA2 tournament? :S

[Deleted]

This is a very incorrect argument when used within the MMO Genre. In a Single Player game that is more balanced around skill than gear, yes, gamers change over time by improving. A player that is unable to defeat a boss in Dark Souls would, in theory, be able to defeat the boss after a number of attempts as individually he is becoming better at the game with each attempt.

In an MMO, especially one like WoW that is heavily gear heavy, this same principle rarely replies. Just because I can handle the mechanics or gear check of a boss does not mean everyone else in the raid can. That means that I won't be able to progress without leaving my raid for another, or waiting for the others to catch up, if ever.

This is why the nerfs are implemented: So players can continue to raid with an established guild of friends without feeling like they have to leave them for a guild that's more capable of clearing the content.

I was talking about MMOs in the past and it worked back then. It's not a hopeless situation as you might think. When a friend is dragging other behind it is in best interest of both of you to tell it out straight out as soon as you can. You can also help him improve but if he as a friend insists on not improving or doesnt take it seriously enough then you might very well considering leaving him behind.

But the question is why should it? Why should the entire gaming genre completely turn into a hard core, competitive, non-relaxing hobby. That would be like telling every person who plays sports recreationaly to relieve stress that they can't do that anymore, and must play them only competitively in order to prevent the sport from becoming stagnant.

Once agian... I dont not want entire WoW to be hardcore like. I wish for recognition for those who wish to take it the hard way so it would possibly inspire others to do the hard way as well.

But here's the thing, and it works in WoW too: If you want to play the game for a challenge or competitively, you have that option. Turn off the Nerf in Dragon Soul, and prove to your server you can clear it without needing the nerf. This will become a lot more prevalent in Mists when you're rewarded a Feat of Strength for doing it (because for some ridiculous reason people need to have little stamps to show off that they did something).

True and my point all the time was for that prevelenace to be added. Thank god Blizzard finally decided to go with this after so much time. It's a pity though that they wont add this now to DS.

When a nerf can be toggled on or off by the player, there is zero reason to not put it in the game for those that don't care about the competitive aspect of PvE and simply want to finish the content through it's three tiers. And as the blue poster has stated several times, and people like you and others can't grasp: Why the hell do you care if someone finishes a heroic dungeon at a 30% nerf when you can do it without one?

Because there is no incentive to do so and some dont want to be associated with them. Thankfully this is fixed in MoP with FoS no buff achievements.

If you answer: "Because it takes away my feeling of accomplishment", than you aren't playing for the competitive nature or challenge of the game, you're playing to gloat yourself over others.

and by that kind of gloat I dont want to send "In your face scrubs!" negative message but possitive "Hey! look at me! How about you rise to the challenge". But that in the end falls down to whether someone wants to see it this way or the other. For whatever reason this generation reacts negatively towards other who are better then himself.

*Sigh* No one is saying that. You're putting words in your mouth to try to prove your point. What people are saying, and rightfully so, is that not everyone wants to play a game that has an extreme amount of challenge in it, and some people enjoy the option of turning the difficulty down so they can play through the content.

Your message could be hardly interprated otherwise. and yes I'm fine with that! As long as those who want to put it to higher gears are seperated and recognized for doing so.

And no, your response of "Oh lol they have LFR" again doesn't work in WoW. In a single player game sure, if a game has three difficulties, and a person finishes it on Easy, that can be it. They can play Normal and Hard later if they want, but that's for a personal challenge and nothing more.

Why not? WoW has in fact 3 difficulties and it's up for personal challenge and incentive to do so. What makes WoW exception?

The problem with WoW is that the higher difficulties award better gear (and aren't slight upgrades) to continue the progression of one's character. Some people (myself not being one of them, but I can understand the desire) like to continually progress their character. Hitting a solid wall in progression of that character becomes frustrating and un-enjoyable, and often times leads to people un-subbing, which is what the Blue Poster is trying to explain to people that don't want to accept that.

Well if they want the goodies I think they should do what's neccesary to get them. It's a conflict between principle of aspiring up to the challenge and between "I wanna" attitude. Personally I dont like this and I'd preffer if those who want to get something better should support it with more then just "gimme or I'll unsubscribe". Alas if Blizzard decides to catter to them then fine but as long as they give recognition and incentive to those who decide to do it the hardway then I wont have any problems with that. Thankfully... MoP fixes it.

But again: Why do you care if people are getting high-end gear for less "work" than you did? You still finished the content before anyone else did, you still have that knowledge, and that should be enough. I was the first person in the US to finish Mega Man 9 (atleast according to the end-game rankings, I was ranked #1 on completion time over the staff names in the ranking screen) when it released on the Wii back in 2009. I didn't take a picture of it at the time to prove I did so, but I know I finished it first, and that was enough for me.

Well some people are not so easily satisfied. This alone is not enough to make people aspire to get better in game. People need incentive for doing things the hardway otherwise no one will pick the hard way and that will affect negative as a whole. I dont think anyone can say with a straight face that better players are bad for the community (arrogant yes... but that's good player went wrong so to speak).

Why is it, than, that you can't accept other people are finishing content and getting the same rewards you are MUCH later on in the tier's life cycle. How does that even directly affect you?

In affects me in such a way that the recognition I get from doing it the hard way is non existant and even if I did it for self satisfaction it still rubbs me odd when I see other getting the same and hear them asking "why did you wasted your time and didnt just waited for the nerfs". In the end this just puts me in the same bag as them and any kind of aspiration to do better than others simply falls down as waste of effort. Aspiration alone is not enough, you need an incentive.

The answer is: It does not, and there is zero logical rebuttal to this.

Yes there is. Look above.

The game does. You're rewarded with the fact that you've finished the content before anyone else, have the gear before anyone else, and come Mists of Pandaria, will have the FoS before anyone else for finishing the content without nerfs.

That's hardly a reward. Point of the reward is to be noticable to show others that you did achieve something. If there's no visable trophy that you did indeed managed something then we might as well all start lying to ourselves. Self satisfaction alone is not always enough. Recognition, and I mean possitive recognition as in "Hey! this guy went over the top! Let's chase him!" is a good thing.

What you're asking is that those rewards remain mutually exclusive to you and you only. And that is something Blizzard wont, nor ever should, do.

No... I never asked for exclusive rewards avaible only to me. I ask for exclusive rewards for all those who choose doing something the hard way. MoP finally fixes this.

Even using your ridiculous example of a diploma in comparison to WoW raiding, this still applies. You may get your diploma in college before someone else you know because you are smarter than they are in that subject . But that person can and will get their diploma as well through the use of tutors and extra help to allow them to pass their classes and requirements to obtain one(the equivalent to raid nerfs in this example).

If it's noticable that I did something alone and I am not put in same cattegory as those who did it with aid. I dont mind, but if I'm put in the same league as those who did the same with help and treated the same then I have a problem with that.

But according to you, because you got your diploma without a tutor, that person should be forced to do that as well, because if they use a tutor to help them get a diploma, it diminishes the fact that you got yours without one, right?

If I am treated the same as he... yes then that is a problem.

[Harazi]

Yeah right. Almost every time I tried to help a newbie in a friendly way I just get told:

"STFU Nerd, I play how I want to! You have no RL anyway, loser."

Eventually you just stop trying to give advice, and I am not the only one. Today, you just kick said person b/c discussion is futile. Most gimpy players of today think they're perfect demigods. They need the GAME tell them not to err, not other players.

And that's not right either. What about the person who desperately wants help, but then sees situations like what you describe, and clams up for fear of being mistreated? I know from personal experience that there are people willing to learn and grow, but they're not getting any help and are scared to ask questions.