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  1. #81
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splosion View Post
    You would wonder how people manage with only 8% these days.

    I do like pursuit of justice, but sometimes it is worth it to have the on-use, especially if you can re-enchant your boots. It's for that reason some of the higher tanks take engineering, as on-demand can often be better than passive.
    So by that logic, the best combination would be PoJ + Engineering?

    To be honest, way I see it is that we have no reason to use a Speed Boot enchant at all. On fights with pretty constant movement, PoJ is an obvious choice. For fights where it doesn't matter so much but you may need to move suddenly, you'd respec to Speed of Light? Because PoJ + Speed boot enchant does not stack, and then if you were prepared to spec to Speed of Light then passive movement wouldn't be required so you wouldn't need the boot bit as you just wouldn't bother? I mean, you could go with both for if you weren't sure for progression maybe but it's only small so you wouldn't feel too gimped doing it.

    Whilst you're here Splosion and thinking about this, how about volunteering a spec/glyphs, one for raiding and one for challenge modes? I'm very close to having enough information to come up with a "community says this" sort of thing, just going to PM those who haven't specified.
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  2. #82
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sadal View Post
    You need to watch all the raid fights and heroics. You are almost always going to be moving around.

    30% run speed for a whole fight - vs - 70% for a short duration every few mins

    That is an easy choice for me, but not everyone i guess.
    I've been doing 10 mans with my DK-tank (which is kinda known for it's lame mobility) and honestly, I didn't have to move that much. Things went quite nicely for the few bosses we've killed so I imagine I would feel really cool with a 70% speed increase now and then. (Especially on a 45 sec cooldown.)

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  3. #83
    Bloodsail Admiral Splosion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    So by that logic, the best combination would be PoJ + Engineering?
    Potentially, although not necessarily.

    To be honest, way I see it is that we have no reason to use a Speed Boot enchant at all. On fights with pretty constant movement, PoJ is an obvious choice. For fights where it doesn't matter so much but you may need to move suddenly, you'd respec to Speed of Light? Because PoJ + Speed boot enchant does not stack, and then if you were prepared to spec to Speed of Light then passive movement wouldn't be required so you wouldn't need the boot bit as you just wouldn't bother? I mean, you could go with both for if you weren't sure for progression maybe but it's only small so you wouldn't feel too gimped doing it.
    That depends. If you want to have the passive movement, but don't need the on-demand, PoJ would be superior. But if you're pusing hard progression and NEED the on-use, re-enchanting for movement speed could be required. That said, the MoP boot enchants don't give us a lot of options, as it's basically 140 mastery + speed, or 175 hit/haste. I'll guess there will probably be a stam + movement speed one, as there usually is, but who knows.

    Whilst you're here Splosion and thinking about this, how about volunteering a spec/glyphs, one for raiding and one for challenge modes? I'm very close to having enough information to come up with a "community says this" sort of thing, just going to PM those who haven't specified.
    It's tricky with a talent spec, given how fast you can change them (it's instant currently, so even in challenge modes you can change between combat), so strictly talents will me fluid.

    That said,

    Raiding
    First tier is (like I've said), mostly a choice between on-demand or passive. Default to PoJ.
    2nd tier is leaning towards the slow, because there's more that can be slowed than stunned in raids, and it's often more useful (kiting adds etc). Admittedly, it's only 1 target, but the tier doesn't have a huge amount of raid viability, since a tank isn't going to cast anything unless it's pre-pull.
    3rd tier is variable. A choice between a number of useful assistive tools, but having a 5 minute lay on hands is kinda nice on the longer fights. The other stuff is reasonable, and affected by fight (like half of these)
    4th tier ideally should be SS, jut because damage prevented is usually greater than damage healed, and it's supposed to scale with haste.
    5th tier is probably divine purpose if you know there isn't any burst damage, or holy avenger if there is.
    6th tier is probably gonna be prism, used on self, but it could vary.
    Challenge modes
    The only noticable changes between a raid spec and this is the CC and utility tiers (2 and 3), just because the ability to double bop healers/casters or extra freedoms etc is so, SO useful in 5mans compared to raids.

    Looking at the glyphs I have on beta, it's only like...Consecration, just because it's a utility boost. The Holy Wrath glyph will likely be useful, and Avenging wrath isn't bad for survival.

    I'm sure there's a possibility of combining the FoL glyph with selfless healer somewhere, just because that plus a bastion of glory-buffed Word of Glory with that glyph could be a powerful heal.

    Harsh words adds some ranged utility (in terms of grabbing mobs), but since you have judgement and avenger's shield, there won't be a "huge" amount of need for it.

    The remaining glyphs are mostly +damage, with the exception of divine protection, which is the polar opposite of what it does now (glyphed and unglyphed have swapped).

  4. #84
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Thanks for your suggestions Splosion, I'll update the original post now with them. I'll also go and actually PM those who I'm waiting on, I think I may have said I'll do it but I haven't yet. After they have time to answer I'll get rid of it all and come up with a different bit on "talents decided by the community" which we can then begin number crunching on in depth as we have the list that people think/find best and really get into the numbers behind each one, then come MOP itself we can break it down to a boss-by-boss system for talents, with a general list which will have some assumptions into it which we've not discussed yet like "You will get Sacred Shield from an outside source" sort of thing, or a "you will get an enhancement shaman/ret paladin for 10% damage reduction hence you don't need to do it" - these will be irrelevent in 25mans but in 10mans it will be more of a question

    I won't be around very much tomorrow, I leave this villa at 9am GMT and my flight lands @ London Heathrow at 7:30pm GMT (Leaving from Rome airport at like 5pm I think) so I won't be home until maybe 9:30-10pm GMT. I don't know if I'll log on and say hello to confirm that my plane hasn't burst into flames (I'm terrified of flying, not the craft, I believe in maths and physics, it's the people) and then on Sunday I will be waking up in my own bed and have a proper mouse and proper keyboard and I'll be able to log onto WoW and the PTR more importantly meaning I can test the new talents, and I'll have this machine permanently plugged in so I don't have to worry about running out of power ^^ In short, all that means is that I can finally update this thread well, do some maths and actually get pretty much all I've done in the past 2 weeks, accomplished in a few hours, meaning I can update the original posts to be bi-winning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
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  5. #85
    A more detailed explanation per Merin's request!


    ~~~~~~Raiding~~~~~~

    T1: Speed of Light, there doesn't seem to be THAT many situations where constant movement is needed, when i do need to move, i prefer the sprint. It also isn't tied to judgment like long arm is (say i judgment, and it's OCD and the dash wore, but now i need to move.. OOPS!).

    T2: Fist of Justice, this tier is sort of a wash overall. There isn't any real opportunity for any of them but trash. Fist just doesn't add another button to my bar.

    T3: Sacred Shield 100%. Selfless Healer doesn't benefit you (although if there are fights where off healing is needed it could be interesting). Eternal Flame is nice, but I'd rather have more damage prevented than have more healing.

    T4: Unbreakable Spirit, Bubble and protection on a lower cd? Yum <3

    T5:Holy Avenger for fights that have predictable burst, divine purpose for everything else. Avenger can be used for Hp generator > WoG > repeat for it's duration during heavy damage phases.

    T6: Execution's Sentence, the ONLY reason I'm picking this over Holy Prism is because It's currently scaling better.

    Majors: Glyph of Alabaster Shield - Your successful blocks increase the damage of your next SHOTR by 20%. Stacks 3 times.

    Glyph of Avenging Wrath - heals you for 2% of your health every 4 seconds.

    Glyph of Divine Protection - Reduces the magic reduction effect to 20% but grants a 20% physical damage reduction as well. (For fights without magic damage)

    Glyph of Word of Glory - Increases your damage by 3% per charge of Holy Power spent on Word of Glory. Lasts 6 seconds. (For fights with magic damage so we can keep the full Divine Protection).

    ~~~~~~Challenge Modes~~~~~~

    T1: Long Arm, you're going to want to be moving between groups of mobs as fast as (and consistently) as possible. PoJ forces you to pool holy power for the full sprint which I don't really like. It feels sort of clunky.

    T2: Repentence, 100%. You don't need to wait for your mage to polly or your rogue to sap, you can do the CC yourself!

    T3: Selfless Healer. You want to help lessen the pressure on your healer. The more off-heals you toss, the less mana your healer has to use. This is also NOT tied to your holy power (Where as Eternal Flame is). So you're not doing less SoTR because of your off healing.

    T4: Clemency, having double Sac / BoP can prevent wipes, especially if your dps are going all out at the start of pulls. Casters can still DPS fully while sitting in a BoP (so can healers).

    T5: Divine Purpose, every single proc is going to matter in a challenge run. Those free WoGs and shields add up, especially when every second in the run matters. The other two options are nice for when you're just concern with the boss fights, but trash clear speed matters here.

    T6: Light's Hammer, it's a godsend for chain-pulling. It's also AoE healing (Helps your healer) and damage (helps your threat). Fantastic ability and only a 1min CD.

    Glyphs:

    Glyph of Flash of Light - When you Flash of Light a target, it causes that target to take 10% more healing from you for the next 7 seconds.

    Glyph of Word of Glory - Increases your damage by 3% per charge of Holy Power spent on Word of Glory. Lasts 6 seconds.

    [IF USING SEAL OF TRUTH!!] Glyph of Alabaster Shield - Your successful blocks increase the damage of your next SHOTR by 20%. Stacks 3 times.

    [IF USING SEAL OF INSIGHT!!] Glyph of Battle Healer - Using melee attacks with Seal of Insight active, heals a nearby friendly target within 30yards for 10% of the damage done.

    My thought process behind my glyphs is similar to my talents. The more healing you do, the less the healer needs to do. More mana saved, less drinking. Faster time. If you feel you need the extra damage, run seal of truth with Glyph of ala shield. If you want to go full blown healing, use insight and glyph of battle Healer.

    But vay! What about the other two?

    Selfless.. Healer.. By using Glyph of WoG and FoL you can Wings > Instant FoL (with selfless healer up) > Wog. This is incredibly powerful burst healing. This combo WILL save lives during runs. Glyph of WoG just helps compensate the damage you lose from useing WoGs over shields at times.

  6. #86
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    I'm alive! My plane didn't explode. I'm at home now and all is well (Although one of the hamsters seems to have a bite taken out of its shoulder by the other) but all are alive, including fish - all accounted for.

    Tomorrow afternoon I will go through my PM's and the replies on this thread and come up with "specs suggested by mmochampion community" and then write up a load of situations like "for a general patchwerk fight..." "if you have this in your raid..." sort of thing, shouldn't take long
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
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  7. #87
    Went through a few videos each of all raid bosses trying to see what might be the best first tier talent for each. Other than the second phase of Blade Lord Ta'yak where there's nothing to judge until the end of the run, LAotL works petty well for almost everything (though there are of course bosses where there's either no urgent movement, or where it wouldn't matter what you took as long as you used it). Only boss I might strictly suggest having PoJ for is Will of the Emperor for dodging attacks. And might suggest having SoL instead for Imperial Vizier Zor'lok when running through the pheromones, or for Lei Shi during the channeled pushback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vayra View Post
    T1: Long Arm, you're going to want to be moving between groups of mobs as fast as (and consistently) as possible. PoJ forces you to pool holy power for the full sprint which I don't really like. It feels sort of clunky.
    I kind of suspected one might want to pool holy power a little for chain pulling anyway. Rather than using it up on the last straggler or two of the group you're finishing off, save some to use on the fresh group you're about to pull (some exceptions apply of course).

    Quote Originally Posted by Vayra View Post
    T6: Light's Hammer, it's a godsend for chain-pulling. It's also AoE healing (Helps your healer) and damage (helps your threat). Fantastic ability and only a 1min CD.
    Much of my bias toward Holy Prism is because of the cooldown, which among other things ensures it could pretty much be used every pull (though of course each singular use is not as strong a cooldown as Light's Hammer). Potentially you could run into a group and do a bit of burst threat while doing a little self healing, or a bit of aoe healing while fighting a boss.
    Last edited by Elathi; 2012-08-05 at 04:52 AM.

  8. #88
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Ok, in this post I'm going to have another stab at the maths behind our level 75 talents. I should be good at maths so here's hoping - point out if you see any obvious mistakes, just had a play on the PTR. After the comparison proof and a comment, I have some maths showing just how god awful Glyph of Final Wrath is.

    All of these were tested on a level 85 Target Dummy with no debuffs on it, and I myself had no buffs. Therefore, with Haste in raids, you will get ever so slightly more out of each of these 3 talents, but it will increase across the board pretty equally but not quite, so therefore these numbers are close enough to accurate.

    Sanctified Wrath vs Divine Purpose vs Holy Avenger

    (everything in this post will be normalized to 3 minutes for comparison)

    Sanctified Wrath increases Avenging Wrath's duration to 30seconds and reduces the cooldown of Judgement to 3 seconds for the duration.

    Therefore, during an ordinary 30 seconds without this talent, you would get 30/6 = 5 Judgements off, granting 5 Holy Power. WITH the talent, you now get 30/3 = 10 Judgements off, doubling it, granting 10 holy power.

    Therefore, there is a net gain of merely 5 Holy Power compared to what you would have without, every 3 minutes.


    Divine Purposeis more mathsy than the above but still isn't bad. In a 3 minute period, you will unleash (180/4.5) = 40 Crusader Strikes, and (180/6) = 30 Judgements "Theoretically" - this may end up being slightly less therefore devaluing this talent ever so slightly.

    Now, 20% of your Crusader Strikes will also proc Grand Crusader, meaning that (40*0.2) = 8 Avengers Shield will grant Holy Power in this 3 minute window. Supposedly. 30+40+8 = 78 Holy Power generated in 3 minutes. 78/3 = 26 usage of abilities that cost 3 Holy Power (I tested all of mine with SHOTR and it is very likely you will use WoG/EF with 3 HP anyway).

    20% of those 26 finishers will proc Divine Purpose so you will actually get (26*1.2) = 31.2 lots of 3 Holy Power finishers. 31.2 - 26 = 5.2 extra 3 Holy Power finishers every 3 minutes. 5.2*3 = 15.6 Holy Power extra every 3 minutes. However, this talent is RNG so your results may vary, and it's the RNG nature of this talent that puts it to shame partially.


    Holy Avenger, the one causing all the fuss at the moment. Now, having tried this about 10 times, in its duration I managed to get out 3 Crusader Strikes and 3 Judgements. This amounts to 6 so will amount to 18 Holy Power generated per 2 minutes, which is 12 more than otherwise.

    Due to Grand Crusader, 20% of those Crusader Strikes will proc Grand Crusader. (3*0.2) = 0.6 Avengers Shield procs per Holy Avenger. Due to each one of these generating 3 holy power rather than 1, it becomes (0.6*3) = 1.8 Holy Power through Avengers Shield per Holy Avenger. Add this 1.8 onto the original 18 and you come up with 19.8 Holy Power per 2 minutes. Multiply this by 1.5 to get the number per 3minutes, which is 29.7 Holy Power generated per 3 minutes via Holy Avenger.

    However that is not the end of the story - Sanctified Wrath gives a 5 NET gain, and Divine Purpose gives a 15 NET gain. 29.7 is the TOTAL generated, so to find the NET gain you must subtract what you would have generated otherwise. 3 Crusader Strikes and 3 Judgements makes 6 Holy Power, and then you must add on the 0.6 from Avengers Shield in the same time period, making 6.6. 29.7 - 6.6 = 23.1 NET gain of Holy Power.

    Not only is Holy Avenger controllable rather than RNG, but it also grants the biggest net gain of holy power which is the important bit.


    Tl;dr version


    Sanctified Wrath = 5 Holy Power net gain.
    Divine Purpose = 15 Holy Power net gain (on average).
    Holy Avenger = 23.1 Holy Power net gain.

    My thoughts on this is that Holy Avenger is clearly and by far and away the best one. With the ability to spam Shield of the Righteous during this and have 100% uptime on the 30% damage reduction after using it during it, and then another 4 (?) seconds worth as it ends, Holy Avenger doubles up as a 24 second cooldown of 30% reduced damage. I expect to see a buff to the protection side of things for Sanctified Wrath and a nerf to Holy Avenger pretty soon.

    If they make Holy Avenger a 3 minute cooldown like many expect, it will still give a net gain of 13.2 Holy Power, which is only just below that of Divine Purpose if it behaves averagely. How it will diminish as a cooldown will hurt but then people may end up sticking with it anyway because although it's worse in terms of Holy Power generation than Divine Purpose, the lack of RNG involved and the ondemand cooldown (albeit nerfed) is going to be highly sought after. Personally, I really see Holy Avenger as the way to go for raiding and bosses in Challenge Modes, with Divine Purpose good for trash. Sanctified Wrath is just terrible beyond description.

    Assuming noone finds any obvious mistakes and that nothing big changes, may this end the debate? Please? There are more topics than just this at hand!



    Why Glyph of Final Wrath sucks beyond belief.


    First question you should be uttering is "Why, Oh great Merin, does this suck?" and the answer is that it scales terribly.

    I copied my character over to the PTR, in a lot of 410s and 2 416s from Dragon Soul heroic at level 85. I had 225767 health on the PTR unbuffed, and Holy Wrath was doing 8053 damage with no buffs either, on myself or the dummy.

    We will have to make a model about what kind of boss fight we are looking at here, and a few obvious points about what will increase and decrease the value of this glyph:

    - Fights where the sub 20% (execute phase) are long, this glyph becomes better.
    - Fights where the execute phase is short, it devalues immensely.
    - The maths here will be made about single target fights only, but if you have more than 1 mob in the execute phase which is long lasting and in range then this glyph effectively doubles, then triples, then quadruples for 2, 3 and 4 mobs. However, even factoring this in, it's still lackluster.



    Now, I will post sets of numbers here - all were done on a 5 minute fight, where the last 1 minute of the fight was 20% and below, hence a steady health pool going down. In short, a Patchwerk fight - however, sub 20% would be shorter because of other classes Executes, and therefore make the numbers even smaller at the end, so take some off for that. Then, you have take even more off, because we don't have the coefficients for level 85 in the same way we do level 90, so for the calculation of Vengeance added in, the number is inflated quite a lot! Therefore you have to pretend it's even smaller than it already is.

    First of all, numbers with no vengeance over a 5 minute fight and no glyph. Holy Wrath has a 9 second cooldown so I will call it 10seconds because it will not be high up your priority list so may get missed very occasionally.

    300 seconds, therefore 30 casts. 30*8053 = 241590 damage.

    With the glyph, 24 casts will do 8053 damage (making 193272 damage) and the other 6 will do 12079.5 damage, making a total of 72477. 72477 + 193272 = 265749 damage.

    The difference therefore is 265749 - 241590 = 24159 damage. Divide this by 300 to find the "dps" and you get 80.53 dps gain. Yeah, you read that correctly.

    Now, to show how badly it scales. Due to my unbuffed health on the PTR at level 85, I will gain 22576.7 attack power. Add this on to what I already had which is 9181 (all unbuffed except vengeance here). That makes 31757.7 AP, an SP = AP/2, so my spellpower is 15878.85

    According to the database, Holy Wrath damage is 4300 + 91% of your spell power. Therefore, Holy Wrath at full vengeance and no other buffs will now hit for (4300 + (0.91*15878.85)) = 18749.7535.

    30 hits of that for no glyph, does 30*18749.7535 = 562492.605 damage.
    With the glyph, 24 hits will do 449994.084 damage and the extra 6 will add 168747.7815 damage, making a total of 618741.8655 damage.

    618741.8655 - 562492.605 = 56249.2605 damage, over a 5 minute fight that is a 187.49 dps gain. And that is WITH INFLATED NUMBERS so the actual value will be lower, at level 85 which is what all this testing is about.


    Considering it is that much of a gain at level 85 allegedly, seeing as that number is too high anyway, with another 8k attack power through vengeance, and therefore a 4k increase in spellpower at MOP launch... that number won't be rising above 400 any time soon near the launch of MOP unless something big is done, for the Patchwerk style fight that I am basing this on. A probably 300 at most, dps gain, from a glyph slot, is just pathetic.

    Therefore, this glyph is awful. As with all my posts involving maths, if someone spots a mistake please notify me and I will rectify it, and if it alters the outcome significantly then I will edit out my mistake and go back to pretending I'm perfect.
    Last edited by MerinPally; 2012-08-05 at 02:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
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  9. #89
    Mechagnome ayashi's Avatar
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    Cool

    Sanctified Wrath increases Avenging Wrath's duration to 30seconds and reduces the cooldown of Judgement to 3 seconds for the duration.

    Therefore, during an ordinary 30 seconds without this talent, you would get 30/6 = 5 Judgements off, granting 5 Holy Power. WITH the talent, you now get 30/3 = 10 Judgements off, doubling it, granting 10 holy power.

    Therefore, there is a net gain of merely 5 Holy Power compared to what you would have without, every 3 minutes.
    Did you consider that J is not a out of the GCD spell and therefor we need to somehow put it into our rotation without it taking the place of CS or AS proc ?
    To delay those and use J instead will eventually push one, or more, Holy power generator out of the 30s window and therfor lowering the total HP generation.

    Divine Purpose is more mathsy than the above but still isn't bad. In a 3 minute period, you will unleash (180/4.5) = 40 Crusader Strikes, and (180/6) = 30 Judgements "Theoretically" - this may end up being slightly less therefore devaluing this talent ever so slightly.

    Now, 20% of your Crusader Strikes will also proc Grand Crusader, meaning that (40*0.2) = 8 Avengers Shield will grant Holy Power in this 3 minute window. Supposedly. 30+40+8 = 78 Holy Power generated in 3 minutes. 78/3 = 26 usage of abilities that cost 3 Holy Power (I tested all of mine with SHOTR and it is very likely you will use WoG/EF with 3 HP anyway).

    20% of those 26 finishers will proc Divine Purpose so you will actually get (26*1.2) = 31.2 lots of 3 Holy Power finishers. 31.2 - 26 = 5.2 extra 3 Holy Power finishers every 3 minutes. 5.2*3 = 15.6 Holy Power extra every 3 minutes. However, this talent is RNG so your results may vary, and it's the RNG nature of this talent that puts it to shame partially.
    And same as above do you have a rotation that allows you to use CS/AS/J exactly on cooldown all the time ?
    Personnaly i always get CS and J up at the same time every 4 gcd, meaning a pushback on J and that in effect J has an average of (3*6 + 6+1.5)/4= 6.375 s cooldown for me. or that i "lose" one J every 16J or about 2J loss every 3min.

    Holy Avenger, the one causing all the fuss at the moment. Now, having tried this about 10 times, in its duration I managed to get out 3 Crusader Strikes and 3 Judgements. This amounts to 6 so will amount to 18 Holy Power generated per 2 minutes, which is 12 more than otherwise.

    Due to Grand Crusader, 20% of those Crusader Strikes will proc Grand Crusader. (3*0.2) = 0.6 Avengers Shield procs per Holy Avenger. Due to each one of these generating 3 holy power rather than 1, it becomes (0.6*3) = 1.8 Holy Power through Avengers Shield per Holy Avenger. Add this 1.8 onto the original 18 and you come up with 19.8 Holy Power per 2 minutes. Multiply this by 1.5 to get the number per 3minutes, which is 29.7 Holy Power generated per 3 minutes via Holy Avenger.

    However that is not the end of the story - Sanctified Wrath gives a 5 NET gain, and Divine Purpose gives a 15 NET gain. 29.7 is the TOTAL generated, so to find the NET gain you must subtract what you would have generated otherwise. 3 Crusader Strikes and 3 Judgements makes 6 Holy Power, and then you must add on the 0.6 from Avengers Shield in the same time period, making 6.6. 29.7 - 6.6 = 23.1 NET gain of Holy Power.

    Not only is Holy Avenger controllable rather than RNG, but it also grants the biggest net gain of holy power which is the important bit.
    1) you have to substract the HP generation out of Holy Avengy from the 2min generation, not the 3min. So it should be 19.8 - 6.6 = 13.2 HP per 2min => 19.8 HP net fain every 3 min.
    2) problem with AS proc : if you get a proc you can only use it with in 6s. And since you go "generator" -> "finisher" -> "generator" (...) with no fillers inbetween while under Holy avenger, you can't use AS and gain a Holy power. Not until holy avenger is finished at the very least, so only the possible proc from Crusader strikes within the last 6s of holy avenger will give an useable AS proc.
    Which would be the last two CS if you are lucky enough. So 0.2 chance of a proc from the last CS, plus 0.2 proc from the one before, substrating the chance that both proc (0.2*0.2) which will only make you gain one holy power so 0.36 total AS proc HP generation.


    Ahhh, poking at holes in other people math is soo much more satisfing !
    Anyway, the difference is rather small, no change in order of hp generation i belive, and the end result is pretty much the same.
    Only thing i'd like to point out, holy avenger will act as a CD due to 100% uptime on SoR dmg reduction upon it's duration, but Divine purpose will offer higher average uptime (compared to no talent or sancti wrathy) overall since we will end up using more SoH due to higher HP generation.


    About Glyph of Final Wrath. I find most pure dps glyph close to worthless. Albaster being the only exception
    Take WoG glyph: 9% dps gain for 6s avec a WoG. Since the average usage of WoG will be in a cycle of every 6 finishers (5 SoR for buffs & dmg reduction -> WoG).
    Best case scenario finisher every 4.5s (as proc), worse every 6s (no proc). So, on average (4.5*0.2 + 6*0.8=)5.7s => wog every 28,5s.
    (too lazy to model the real prot cycle. If anyone knows the real HP generation or the real average cooldown on our finishers in MoP please do tell)
    Meaning an average dps gain of 1.9%. So an average dps of 15k will net us a benefit of ~280 dps. Huge indeed
    (note :i find Focused Shield is similarly pathetic)
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
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  10. #90
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayashi View Post
    Did you consider that J is not a out of the GCD spell and therefor we need to somehow put it into our rotation without it taking the place of CS or AS proc ?
    To delay those and use J instead will eventually push one, or more, Holy power generator out of the 30s window and therfor lowering the total HP generation.
    Yeah I considered this - the way I tested all of these was to push out as much as humanly possible rather than what you would probably get in normal circumstances, as this would show you the relative strengths of the talents rather than get afflicted by "how nicely they sit into our rotation" which will devalue all of them - some moreso than others but the final numbers are different enough to make up for that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ayashi
    And same as above do you have a rotation that allows you to use CS/AS/J exactly on cooldown all the time ?
    Personnaly i always get CS and J up at the same time every 4 gcd, meaning a pushback on J and that in effect J has an average of (3*6 + 6+1.5)/4= 6.375 s cooldown for me. or that i "lose" one J every 16J or about 2J loss every 3min.
    I don't think I do but I'll be doing some more testing later, all I had yesterday was about 2 hours play on the PTR so I've not commited it to memory yet. Again, same as the above point, was doing the maximum theoretical rather than the maximum attainable as it's easier to model, easier to maths, and the end number won't be all that far off the real value we get so the results are still close enough to be considered worthwhile acknowledging at least ^^


    Quote Originally Posted by Ayashi
    1) you have to substract the HP generation out of Holy Avengy from the 2min generation, not the 3min. So it should be 19.8 - 6.6 = 13.2 HP per 2min => 19.8 HP net fain every 3 min.
    2) problem with AS proc : if you get a proc you can only use it with in 6s. And since you go "generator" -> "finisher" -> "generator" (...) with no fillers inbetween while under Holy avenger, you can't use AS and gain a Holy power. Not until holy avenger is finished at the very least, so only the possible proc from Crusader strikes within the last 6s of holy avenger will give an useable AS proc.
    Which would be the last two CS if you are lucky enough. So 0.2 chance of a proc from the last CS, plus 0.2 proc from the one before, substrating the chance that both proc (0.2*0.2) which will only make you gain one holy power so 0.36 total AS proc HP generation.
    Yeah this was poor form from me on the subtraction, was rather stupid. The bit about "whether you can actually apply the Avengers Shields" I'm just gona sit by the same excuse as above and go with an "It'll sort itself out!" policy.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ayashi
    Anyway, the difference is rather small, no change in order of hp generation i belive

    Only thing i'd like to point out, holy avenger will act as a CD due to 100% uptime on SoR dmg reduction upon it's duration, but Divine purpose will offer higher average uptime (compared to no talent or sancti wrathy) overall since we will end up using more SoH due to higher HP generation.
    This is a contradiction in your post? The first part says that there's no order to the difference of HP generation (so Holy Avenger makes the most) but then you say that Divine Purpose offers more uptime due to higher Holy Power generation? With regards to the cooldown bit, I mentioned that in there ^^
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Oh shut the fuck up you spack cunt.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by ayashi View Post
    About Glyph of Final Wrath. I find most pure dps glyph close to worthless. Albaster being the only exception
    Take WoG glyph: ...Meaning an average dps gain of 1.9%. So an average dps of 15k will net us a benefit of ~280 dps. Huge indeed
    (note :i find Focused Shield is similarly pathetic)
    Well, in WoW, we tend to deal in small numbers and in that context, a 2% dps increase is not small or pathetic. In live, focussed shield has been described as "incredibly potent" by theckhd, although it's an overall dps increase of around 3% or so.

    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...593313#p593313

    I used to dislike the focussed shield glyph when I mainly did 5 mans, but switching to raiding (which in Cata was almost all single target) and a bit of pvp on the side, it's been close to a no brainer. Whether I find something better in MoP, I don't know. It's true it's a dps glyph and we're a tank spec, but I think Blizzard is trying to avoid giving tanks survivability glyphs (or giving dps the option of dps glyphs) as they would be required.

  12. #92
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    So now I'm going to say something that might put a skew on all of your level 75 talent math: Prot still has Sanctity of Battle. Considering that they're compacting raid-wide buffs again, you'll almost definitely have the melee haste buff (which SoB should be scaling off of at launch). It's also possible that having some amount of haste on gear may end up being beneficial to our own survival, although this will most likely be towards the end of the expansion when we're riding high on diminishing returns on defensive stats.

    As for Final Wrath, it's even worse because Holy Wrath still has the meteor effect. So whenever a secondary target appears, it starts to devalue even further. Glyph of Focused Wrath might make Final Wrath worth it, but two glyphs to get a decent effect from one spell is a bit much.

  13. #93
    Mechagnome ayashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    This is a contradiction in your post? The first part says that there's no order to the difference of HP generation (so Holy Avenger makes the most) but then you say that Divine Purpose offers more uptime due to higher Holy Power generation? With regards to the cooldown bit, I mentioned that in there ^^
    maybe i didn't express myself correctly. I mean there is a small change in the hp generation of each spell, but i belive that that small change does not change the order in wich the talents are in your post.
    As for the second point : again maybe it was too short to fully express my point. what i was trying to say is that , compared to the default case (as in not compared to HA), Divine Purpose will increase the average SoR uptime and therfor lower our average damage intake.
    Implying that Holy avengy will instead use that increase SoR uptime and focus it on it's duration (making it, as you said a defencive CD), with compared to Divine purpose, higher damage intake outside of the CD.
    When, and if, blizz nerfs holy avenger to 3min (or some other way) and take it down under divine purpose average hp generation, then the choice will become :
    - do i need a CD for spike damage; or will the DP higher average damage reduction due to higher SoR uptime be more beneficial ?

  14. #94
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    So now I'm going to say something that might put a skew on all of your level 75 talent math: Prot still has Sanctity of Battle.
    Kind of, but not to a way that impacts the final result if that makes sense - Due to haste lowering those cooldowns, it bumps up the total number you can get off each one but doesn't alter the total number of holy power you can get in any way other than increasing them. May be out by like 1 or 2 at the absolute most but it will increase all of them pretty equally, so once you start incorporating haste, Sanctified Wrath will increase a little bit, Holy Avenger a lot and Divine Purpose about the same, maybe a little less, because you'll generate your holy power faster but still get the same number of procs - it will be an across the board increase, widening the gap between the other 2 and sanctified wrath.

    So my exact numbers are going to be off when you incorporate haste but it won't change the order of the spells or the apparent usefulness of them, as far as I can see anyway.


    @ Ayashi, yes I see what you mean now ^^ Less Holy Power generation but your damage reduction is interspersed in your normal rotation rather than at a fixed point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Oh shut the fuck up you spack cunt.

  15. #95
    Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding something, but why would AS not be able to be used during Holy Avenger? Assuming you're activating HA without SotR buff up and no holy power, a playthrough below:

    00:00 CS, use HP on SotR right away
    01:50 J, use this HP on Wog if GC procced, otherwise hold on to it
    03:00 AS if GC procced, either way use the HP you'll have here on SotR
    04:50 CS, WoG if this attack procs GC, otherwise hold on to the HP
    06:00 use AS if GC procced, either way use the HP you'll have here on SotR
    07:50 J, hold on to the HP
    09:00 try to use the HP from last J on SotR before using CS
    10:50 if GC procced, use the HP from CS to WoG then use AS, otherwise do nothing
    12:00 use the HP from the last CS or AS on SotR here
    13:50 CS, pool this HP if you didn't have an opportunity to before, or just use it to WoG
    15:00 J, use this HP on SotR

    The last J will be outside of HA's duration unless you have the 10% haste buff. If desired, can replace any one above suggestion of using WoG with "just pool the HP" (admittedly wasting one HP), so you have two left over after the cooldown is done, so the next generator will allow use of yet another SotR, bringing its buff uptime to 21 seconds rather than 18.

    In case I'm wrong or did indeed misunderstand, in an attempt to make this post still potentially useful, tried figuring out which specific raid fights Hand of Purity could be used for. Because I'm untrusting and inquisitive, wondered to what extent it considered things harmful periodic effects. Tested a bit and it seems it doesn't reduce the damage of either environmental effects (standing in fire or some variant) or channeled abilities unless they specifically give you a debuff. Examples: didn't reduce the damage of the poison cloud at the start of Zul'Gurub (no debuff), but reduced damage of the circle left by Thwomp (shows a debuff), same for tests on Whispers of Hethiss (no debuff) and Mind Flay (shows a debuff).

    -For Garalon, I would think it'd work great to buy someone a bit more time once pheromone damage starts ramping high.
    -On Amber-shaper Un'sok, I can't say I quite understand how the debuff works, but it'd potentially be nice to use on Parasitic Growth if it starts getting bad.
    -Perchance useful on The Stone Guard heroic. The bleed doesn't do terribly high damage per tick, but it is in 1 sec intervals, so you can dampen 5 of them with HoPu rather than the 2 or 1 tick(s) of dots with 2 or 3 second intervals respectively.
    -Might only perhaps suggest for Feng the Accursed if you're the off tank, to use on the main tank.
    -On Elegon heroic, potentially useful after blowing up an add if your healers aren't great at quickly topping you off.
    -Perhaps for if anyone takes a Hudde in Terror in the heroic only phase of Sha of Fear, but there's no media on that that I can find, so I've little clue for how that phase goes.

    Caveat: mere speculation of someone who is not in beta, watching videos of the content and reading dungeon journals.

  16. #96
    Bloodsail Admiral Splosion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Kind of, but not to a way that impacts the final result if that makes sense - Due to haste lowering those cooldowns, it bumps up the total number you can get off each one but doesn't alter the total number of holy power you can get in any way other than increasing them. May be out by like 1 or 2 at the absolute most but it will increase all of them pretty equally, so once you start incorporating haste, Sanctified Wrath will increase a little bit, Holy Avenger a lot and Divine Purpose about the same, maybe a little less, because you'll generate your holy power faster but still get the same number of procs - it will be an across the board increase, widening the gap between the other 2 and sanctified wrath.
    Judgement is likely to get more of a benefit from Sanctity of Battle just because it has a longer cooldown to start with, which actually buffs santified wrath's numbers. It may just edge it out above divine purpose, especially in burst scenarios, which (honestly) is all that are important on boss fights, since usually the rest is gained from gearing, active mitigation or not.

  17. #97
    Might be true if, for whatever given amount of haste, SoB is meant to reduce the cooldown of the 3 sec Judgment by the same amount it reduces that of the 6 sec Judgment. But I'd imagine the reduction changes proportionately, which causes even high levels of haste during the cooldown to not cause nearly that much of a leap.
    Last edited by Elathi; 2012-08-06 at 08:21 PM.

  18. #98
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    Since MerinPally asked so nicely, here's what I'd go with. Keep in mind this is a raiding build.

    Tier 1.
    Speed of Light : The new raids will sometime ask you to move quite a bit. Thing is, I really found it to not happen very often, making the +70% buff to movement speed absolutely amazing. You'll always be the first on the right spot with this. If the fight is asking me to move more often, I'd switch to Long Arm of the Law.

    Tier 2.
    Fist of Justice : This tier doesn't actually matter when raiding, because you probably won't be able to CC or stun anything anyway. Fist of Justice for those special exceptions, where stunning that special add will help with controling the damage you take. It's also interesting for trash mobs, for what it's worth.

    Tier 3.
    Sacred Shield : Even more passive mitigation ? I say yes, good sir. Eternal flame can find it's use on certain fights if you're afraid of overhealing, but I really think word of glory is already doing the job perfectly fine anyway.

    Tier 4.
    Unbreakable Spirit : Incredible talent. More defensive cooldowns per fights.

    Tier 5.
    Holy Avenger : This whole tier is very good, but Holy Avenger is really acting like another defensive cooldown on it's own. With it, you can keep shield of the righteous 100% of the time for a minimum of 15 seconds. In the next beta patch, the SotR buff duration will stack if you cast it when it's already active. Basically, you could just spam this until Holy Avenger fades, if the fight encourages you to do that. If that's not your thing, this spell is also helping you to have an easier rotation, giving you more room for aggro moves like consecration, or holy wrath without gimping yourself by not using your active mitigation because you have too many buttons to push.

    Tier 6.
    Light's Hammer : Death and Decay under performance-enhancing drugs. So much AoE damage, so much AoE healing, your raid is going to love you for this. You can also drop the Consecration glyph with this since it is basically doing the same thing, except better. Execution Sentence is looking pretty neat too, but right now, my Light's Hammer is doing even more damage.

    Glyphs.
    Major : Alabaster Shield / Divine Protection / Avenging Wrath
    Minor : Contemplation () / Righteous Retreat ( !) / Falling Avenger
    Last edited by Asheriah; 2012-08-07 at 12:19 AM.

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  19. #99
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Thanks Asheriah + for the comments on my incorrect maths

    When I'm back from the olympics tonight I'll post any updates should I be awake/sober enough. If not, tomorrow!
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nicus/advanced
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Oh shut the fuck up you spack cunt.

  20. #100
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    Some interesting changes happened in the new build, but two of them really got my attention;

    Holy Avenger : Abilities that generate Holy Power will deal 30% additional damage and healing, and generate 3 charges of Holy Power for the next 15 sec.
    This is good. Very good. You can now generate even more aggro while keeping SotR up all the time.
    Sanctified Wrath : Avenging Wrath also increases healing received by 20%.
    Gives a new definition to Sanctified Wrath, making it very interesting.

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