1. #2101
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    For the reference regarding dmg priority :

    While i haven't updated it in a while (5.0 / 5.1 (?)) I think it should still be fine.
    Not that I don't believe you, but how are you getting 62% uptime on ShotR with no haste? Most of us on here with 15k+ haste are barely breaking the 60%s...
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  2. #2102
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Not that I don't believe you, but how are you getting 62% uptime on ShotR with no haste? Most of us on here with 15k+ haste are barely breaking the 60%s...
    I have seen almost 80% uptime on some fights. 60-75% (most often around 65%) is standard, on fights that does not have any obvious downtime, like Primordius, Megeara etc, these bosses you have obvious downtimes. Really, a lot of fights this tier. If you are eating stuns on Council, Prim and Meg as mentioned, Ji-Kun, Animus, Lei-Shen, Qon, all got very obvious parts of the fights that will lower your overall uptime.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-13 at 09:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    2) Take LAotL the majority of the time. POJ is more useful on some encounters (JiKun, Primo HC, Megaera HC) and can be used on pretty much any fight in place of LAotL if you prefer. POJ is largely ignored.
    Guessing SoL on the first one?
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-05-13 at 09:01 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #2103
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Not that I don't believe you, but how are you getting 62% uptime on ShotR with no haste? Most of us on here with 15k+ haste are barely breaking the 60%s...
    Well i just did the numbers and checked it with some log i had, in a normal 5 minute fight you can pop HA 3 times wich gives you a total of 54 seconds of SotR and 3 more if you hit one in the last second, without the HA doing the rotation right you should hit a SotR every 7 seconds, wich gives you 3 seconds of buff uptime every 7 seconds. a 5 minute fight has a total of 300 seconds 300/7=42.85 that means almost 43 rotations of SotR, in each of those rotations you should a total of 3 seconds of SotR buff, so 43*3= a total of 129 seconds, that plus the 54 seconds of HA and 9 more if you do hit one in the last second of each HA gives you a total of 192, (192/300)*100 = 64 percent total uptime in a standstill fight or in a fight that you dont have to move away from boss so that you never stop hitting him, and the other 36 percent you can manage it by just using cds( they are threre for a reason =P), the other thing i do is that while HA is up i change my rotation, doing it like this, (CS, X, Jud, X, CS, X, Jud.. etc) giving me an uptime of SotR buff in the whole duration of the cd, thats how i`ve managed to do it. thats not on every fight tho you have to do it perfect to achieve it.

    other thing i saw is that the table you just linked me doesnt have HP, and im sure that on a single target fight it does hit harder than HW, making it better, just checking it on dummies HW hits for 19k, and HP for 29k

    TY
    Last edited by Tian; 2013-05-13 at 09:30 PM.

  4. #2104
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Since late Tier-whatever-the-fuck-MSV/HOF was, LaotL beats PoJ due to the haste values, I thought I'd edited that in so I'll do it now. With regards to Holy Prism and Lights Hammer, in the last tier LH was better for more of the fights than prism I seem to remember. If that's changed for this tier (kinda obviously has) I'll change it as well.

    Edit: Done.
    LAotL always beat or was on-par with PoJ, except for maybe WotE. Difference was people didn't really realise by how much or that it "felt" bad. With the new tier the difference just became more noticeable.

    HP vs LH, there was more stack up fights last tier, so placing LH is very awkward on several fights as there is just so much spreading out, especially in 10 man, as in 25 man, you can still often throw it at groups of 7-8 people making it atleast decent, whilst in 10, those groups of 6-7 people is instead 2-3 making is far less valuable. Also, as our haste levels increases, HP becomes more attracive for 2 reason.

    1. We are getting more free globals. The problem with HP at 0% haste was that you simply did not have any free GCDs, often making the effective CD of it closer to 40 seconds than 20.
    2. The fact that LH and ES GCD do not scale with haste is becoming more noticeable. They feel very awkward to use atleast for me, as they still have 1.5s GCD, which is also favoring HP. I just hope to god that they fix SS GCD soon.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #2105
    I'm using AskMrRobot to gear, but it wants we to take the prot 4 set. So badly, apparently, that it wants me to take the dodge/parry T15 prot chest over the exp/haste T15 ret chest. Is the 4 set really THAT valuable?

  6. #2106
    Quote Originally Posted by Tian View Post
    the other thing i do is that while HA is up i change my rotation, doing it like this, (CS, X, Jud, X, CS, X, Jud.. etc) giving me an uptime of SotR buff in the whole duration of the cd, thats how i`ve managed to do it. thats not on every fight tho you have to do it perfect to achieve it.
    Wait what? Why would you do that?


    other thing i saw is that the table you just linked me doesnt have HP, and im sure that on a single target fight it does hit harder than HW, making it better, just checking it on dummies HW hits for 19k, and HP for 29k
    Rather sure HW hits for more, and it is on a shorter cooldown making it more effective for pure DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    I'm using AskMrRobot to gear, but it wants we to take the prot 4 set. So badly, apparently, that it wants me to take the dodge/parry T15 prot chest over the exp/haste T15 ret chest. Is the 4 set really THAT valuable?
    No.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #2107
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    LAotL always beat or was on-par with PoJ, except for maybe WotE. Difference was people didn't really realise by how much or that it "felt" bad. With the new tier the difference just became more noticeable.

    HP vs LH, there was more stack up fights last tier, so placing LH is very awkward on several fights as there is just so much spreading out, especially in 10 man, as in 25 man, you can still often throw it at groups of 7-8 people making it atleast decent, whilst in 10, those groups of 6-7 people is instead 2-3 making is far less valuable. Also, as our haste levels increases, HP becomes more attracive for 2 reason.

    1. We are getting more free globals. The problem with HP at 0% haste was that you simply did not have any free GCDs, often making the effective CD of it closer to 40 seconds than 20.
    2. The fact that LH and ES GCD do not scale with haste is becoming more noticeable. They feel very awkward to use atleast for me, as they still have 1.5s GCD, which is also favoring HP. I just hope to god that they fix SS GCD soon.
    Totally agree with you on the LAotL, however im a tank with 0 haste right now and you get from time to time some free gcds, where you can squeez in something, as i mentioned, ive been testing HP and i think its way better than HW even for aoe fights with just 5 mobs, it hits harder and always heals someone, about LH idk, yah you can throw it to groups but i found myself critting with the HP heal with vengeance up for about 120k or more to 5 random people and thats every 20 seconds, idk if im being stubborn or something but i think HP is way better than the other 2 talents and maybe it`s jsut being underestimated

  8. #2108
    Quote Originally Posted by Tian View Post
    and ty MerinPally for the guide and the editing now i just read the thread and went to the last page to reply wasnt going to read 105 pages.=D
    There are some real gold in some of the pages that is not mentioned anywhere in any guide you will find, so if you get the time, I suggest you read through the thread. Or take it in breaks reading a few pages at the time
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #2109
    Old God MerinPally's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Chemistry block.
    Posts
    10,253
    Quote Originally Posted by Tian View Post
    and ty MerinPally for the guide and the editing now i just read the thread and went to the last page to reply wasnt going to read 105 pages.=D
    When this was like 40 pages, if anyone read every post and could somehow prove it, I'd buy them a pint. At 100+ I'd be making the nearby mental institute aware.

  10. #2110
    Quote Originally Posted by Tian View Post
    Totally agree with you on the LAotL, however im a tank with 0 haste right now and you get from time to time some free gcds, where you can squeez in something, as i mentioned, ive been testing HP and i think its way better than HW even for aoe fights with just 5 mobs, it hits harder and always heals someone, about LH idk, yah you can throw it to groups but i found myself critting with the HP heal with vengeance up for about 120k or more to 5 random people and thats every 20 seconds, idk if im being stubborn or something but i think HP is way better than the other 2 talents and maybe it`s jsut being underestimated
    You mentioned you were doing RF. I think HP have quite high base damage/heal but it scales worse than the other talent with vengeance. In a real raid, especially heroic raids your vengeance goes through the roof.

    Though yeah, HP is very good, but not at that level that the 2 other talents are completely useless.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #2111
    Quote Originally Posted by Tian View Post
    As i said im currently a tank with no haste since RF does not let me roll on haste gear, i do that to have the SotR buff uptime the whole cd otherwise it will go down on the ...Jud, CS, X, X... part of the rotation.
    Reforging.

    Gems.

    Running raid finder as Ret.

    Switching to Ret spec, coining, then switching back.

    Valor gear that has haste.

    Crafted gear that has haste.

  12. #2112
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Wait what? Why would you do that?
    As i said before im currently a tank with no haste since RF doesnt let me roll on haste gear so i change my rotation on HA to have SotR buff up for the whole cd otherwise it will fall on the ... Jud, CS, X, X,... part of the rotation.

    and yah im nto saying the 2 other talents are useless they may have their use from time to time, im just saying i like HP more since i think it brings more to the raid and the tank overall.

  13. #2113
    Quote Originally Posted by Tian View Post
    Well i just did the numbers and checked it with some log i had, in a normal 5 minute fight you can pop HA 3 times wich gives you a total of 54 seconds of SotR and 3 more if you hit one in the last second, without the HA doing the rotation right you should hit a SotR every 7 seconds, wich gives you 3 seconds of buff uptime every 7 seconds. a 5 minute fight has a total of 300 seconds 300/7=42.85 that means almost 43 rotations of SotR, in each of those rotations you should a total of 3 seconds of SotR buff, so 43*3= a total of 129 seconds, that plus the 54 seconds of HA and 9 more if you do hit one in the last second of each HA gives you a total of 192, (192/300)*100 = 64 percent total uptime
    An ideal HA would happen when you have both CS and J off cooldown. If this is the case, you will get off 4 CS and 3 J during the duration of the HA.

    In your example of a 5 minute fight, that means you will gett off 12 CS and 9 J at best during HA. This generates 63 HoPo.
    During the remainder 4 minutes and 6 seconds of the fight, you would get off 54 CS and 35 J. Resulting in a total of 89 HoPo, adding that up with the HoPo from HA we get 152 HoPo, resulting in a 50.66% uptime.

    This is presuming 100% perfect play however not counting GC procs. That fight would have resulted in an average of 8 procs from CS. Lets be nice on the boss and say that he has a perfect 1.5s swing timer getting off 200 hits exactly. Lets also presume that you are tanking the boss for 75% of the time because you are naturally more awesome then the other tank so he lets you tank the boss for a longer period of time.
    That means you are recieving 150 hits. Your dodge+parry together may be around 30%, lets say 1/3 for ease giving you 50 dodges/parries~, which would result in another 4 procs. Now this is all being nice and all.

    So that would add up to 12 HoPo give or take a few. Which seems reasonable checking my own logs, got 6 HoPo from GC during a 3 min kill and 24 during a 9 minute kill where I was tanking multiple mobs 100% of the time.
    So that 12 HoPo would add another 4% uptime bumping you up to 54.66%. Now this is still presuming 100% perfect play.
    So having 60% uptime with 0 haste does not really seem reasonable.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-13 at 09:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tian View Post
    As i said before im currently a tank with no haste since RF doesnt let me roll on haste gear so i change my rotation on HA to have SotR buff up for the whole cd otherwise it will fall on the ... Jud, CS, X, X,... part of the rotation.

    and yah im nto saying the 2 other talents are useless they may have their use from time to time, im just saying i like HP more since i think it brings more to the raid and the tank overall.
    The buff stacks. If you use CS(+SotR) - J(+SotR) in a row during HA you will get a 6 second duration. As such during an entire HA with 0 haste, you will gain 24 HoPo, which means that when HA runs out, you will have a 6 second SotR left. If you have higher haste values you can even see SotRs above 20 second duration.

    You should not change your rotation during HA.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-05-13 at 09:54 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  14. #2114
    i came back to the game a month ago and hitted 90 3 weeks ago, im still getting used with evrything that has changed, i didn`t know you could change spec and coin it to get the ret gear i thought the spec was saved for the loot, since i jsut hitted 90 i dont have that lot of gear to enter raid as ret, plus i dont like getting carried that hard, the other thing is before i came back i was hacked a lot of times so i have 0 gold, so getting crafteds is hard since im trying to grind some gold right no, most of my reforges are going to either mastery or expertise since im hit capped.

  15. #2115
    You should get the Ghost Iron Dragonling trinket. Allows for +600 haste+hit+expertise. It is one of the best if not the best trinket other than stamina trinkets until 522 trinkets. It is also kinda cheap on the AH.

    Yes, I said it.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #2116
    Quote Originally Posted by Tian View Post
    i came back to the game a month ago and hitted 90 3 weeks ago, im still getting used with evrything that has changed, i didn`t know you could change spec and coin it to get the ret gear i thought the spec was saved for the loot, since i jsut hitted 90 i dont have that lot of gear to enter raid as ret, plus i dont like getting carried that hard, the other thing is before i came back i was hacked a lot of times so i have 0 gold, so getting crafteds is hard since im trying to grind some gold right no, most of my reforges are going to either mastery or expertise since im hit capped.
    Just go in as Ret, you'll do better than 90% of the people in there by just paying attention to boss mechanics and not dying

  17. #2117
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The buff stacks. If you use CS(+SotR) - J(+SotR) in a row during HA you will get a 6 second duration. As such during an entire HA with 0 haste, you will gain 24 HoPo, which means that when HA runs out, you will have a 6 second SotR left. If you have higher haste values you can even see SotRs above 20 second duration.

    You should not change your rotation during HA.
    i did not know that ty very much wont do anymore, on the other hand you are forgetting the procs of AS with your CS strikes wich will give you around 6 or more procs on a fight, more if you have haste, that takes you on about 56 or more uptime, that plus heroism or BL will get you to that 60 uptime, i love numbers but i just checked something in game and somehow both things we just talked about didnt quite work out idk maybe the ingame cds are not exact or something, ill have to test it on a real fight with buffs and all to come back here and tell you how was it.
    ty for the trinket advise too, just bought it.

  18. #2118
    Actual cooldown = C/(1+(h/100))

    C = normal cooldown
    h= haste percentage.

    so if you have 25% haste, your CS has a cooldown of

    4.5/(1+(25/100) = 4.5/(1+0.25) = 4.5/1.25 = 3.6 seconds

    Judgement gets pushed back every few cycles, so its effective cooldown without haste is 6.75 seconds, not 6 seconds.

    The base HoPo/second generation rate is about 0.426 holy power per second before haste effects.
    Intel i5 2500K (4.5 GHz) | Asus Z77 Sabertooth | 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP 1600MHz | Gigabyte Windforcex3 HD 7950 | Crucial M4 128GB | Crucial M550 256GB | Asus Xonar DGX | Samson SR 850 | Zalman ZM-Mic1 | Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB | Noctua NH-U12P SE2 | Fractal Design Arc Midi | Corsair HX650

    Tanking with the Blessing of Kings - The TankSpot Guide to the Protection Paladin - Updated for Patch 5.4!

  19. #2119
    Quote Originally Posted by Tian View Post
    i did not know that ty very much wont do anymore, on the other hand you are forgetting the procs of AS with your CS strikes wich will give you around 6 or more procs on a fight, more if you have haste, that takes you on about 56 or more uptime, that plus heroism or BL will get you to that 60 uptime, i love numbers but i just checked something in game and somehow both things we just talked about didnt quite work out idk maybe the ingame cds are not exact or something, ill have to test it on a real fight with buffs and all to come back here and tell you how was it.
    ty for the trinket advise too, just bought it.

    I mentioned that here.

    That fight would have resulted in an average of 8 procs from CS. Lets be nice on the boss and say that he has a perfect 1.5s swing timer getting off 200 hits exactly. Lets also presume that you are tanking the boss for 75% of the time because you are naturally more awesome then the other tank so he lets you tank the boss for a longer period of time.
    That means you are recieving 150 hits. Your dodge+parry together may be around 30%, lets say 1/3 for ease giving you 50 dodges/parries~, which would result in another 4 procs. Now this is all being nice and all.

    So that would add up to 12 HoPo give or take a few. Which seems reasonable checking my own logs, got 6 HoPo from GC during a 3 min kill and 24 during a 9 minute kill where I was tanking multiple mobs 100% of the time.
    So that 12 HoPo would add another 4% uptime bumping you up to 54.66%. Now this is still presuming 100% perfect play.
    Basically, at 0% haste, it is mathematically impossible to get more than 50.66% uptime on SotR on a 5 minute fight with HA talented without counting GC procs. Even with extreme luck on procs, GC won't push you above 58%. About 54-55% uptime is reasonable with 100% perfect play, HA and 0 haste. Of course, different fight lenghts may provide different uptimes due to HA usage.
    60% is just impossible unless you get more than double the amount of GC procs you should have.

    And yes, what Butler said.

    Basically since you are prioritsing J below CS (or should for HoPo generation), every third cycle J will clash with CS. To demonstrate.

    CS-J-X
    CS-X-J
    CS-X-X
    - At this point both CS and Judgement off cooldown, however you use CS over J, effectively delaying every second judgement by 1.5 seconds, giving Judgement an effective cooldown of 6+1.5/2, or 6.75 seconds.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-05-13 at 11:16 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  20. #2120
    Oops, took a nap when I got home, but yes, what I mentioned (now almost a page ago) is what has been brought up by Butler and Firefly; you just can't exceed ~52-53% uptime without haste (or REALLY good luck with DivPurp).

    As for other topics, you really should 1) run as ret, 2) use ret rolls on worthwhile bosses, or 3) at least get Ret-ish gear where you can. You seem bright enough, and will go much further once you actually use the tools in the spec's kit (Sanctity of Battle) that give it some oomph. And then, once you get some moderate levels of haste, DivPurp will overtake other talent choices in terms of DPS and ShotR uptime, due to haste's interaction with the DivPurp mechanism. At current heroic gear levels, I've seen some parses with people in the 70-80% uptime ranges.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •