1. #2261
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    So gem. socket bonus if it has stamina or 120+ str? (taking the nr. from my own recommended things for classes I play).

    Having a mastery socket bonus is bad? Dodge bonus is not that great then? And tbh I would keep (if it was my paladin), the stamina/haste gems as stamina is still good to have.

    I reforged using wowreforge (and yes, I input new gear values to upgraded gear) his gear where I replaced the str/haste gems with haste/exp gems and changed few orange gems to haste ones and got roughly 9632 haste, while him being hit/exp capped ^^.

    Prolly if the socket bonus from chest/gloves would be dropped, then it would be even more haste. Guess I will have to play around more with his gear and reforges to see what I can squeeze out.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-05-28 at 12:38 PM.
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  2. #2262
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Well. It really doesn't matter if he takes socket boni or not - as long as he focuses on geming haste.

    A 100 Haste Socket Bonus isn't worth it if you lose 160 Haste and gain 160 hit that you dont need. If it's a strong bonus like 175 Stam or Mastery or Str and I only have to give up 160 Haste, I usually take them. As long as the Hit/Exp I get is not wasted. If you can't use the Hit/EXP gained from it, don't get the Socket Boni.

    Never ever gem for Parry/Dodge Boni. Unless you just get it along the way (like only one yellow socket).

    I usually gem for it if the Bonus is 1xx with 2 gems or 6x with 1 gem. I don't mind the extra stam/mastery. I'm not _that_ focused on haste. I try to get it whereever I can, but I also like to keep an eye on my Mastery/Stam on the way there.

    You can also bruteforce it and only socket 320 Haste into everything. Works too. If you have too much hit/exp and you absolutely don't care about stamina or mastery, thats fine too.

  3. #2263
    Epic! rawhammer's Avatar
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    sockets bonuses are good...and a bonus! I always go for them as they look pretty, anyhoo.
    I feel that you may be focusing too much on gear being the issue when there are probably more important things that he can improve (going from what XXXX said about his cd usage and SS uptime on the previous page).
    Focus on the "rotation" and your problems will solve themselves im sure.
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  4. #2264
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    For some background, I'm a 520ilvl prot pally for a 25man guild, so I will generally be using at least 1 stamina trinket due to the harder hits allowing healers to react. My current haste is 11394 (26.81%).
    So, with 5.3 coming along and shifting stat weights slightly
    AskMrRobot:
    Stamina: 1.16 (Medium) / Haste (1.0) / Mastery (0.7), and dodge/parry (0.35).
    Now I picked up Ji'kun's Rising Winds a couple of weeks ago, and after one raid night, realised just how useless it was. Around the same time, I was looking at Colossus vs Dancing Steel, if you lowered the stat weight of Armor from (0.99) down to around (0.5), it lowered the weight of Ji'kun's Rising Winds and switched Colossus to Dancing Steel.
    With 5.3, Armor at 0.64 tells me to use Colossus, but 0.63 (and lower) to use Windsong. Do you think Windsong is now a valid contender to Colossus, or should I stick with Colossus?

  5. #2265
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    Not sure you'd notice collosus' absorb in 10 man, never mind 25 man. That being said none of the weapon enchants are mind-blowing: it's always been the case of comparing something "lackluster" with something "meh". Ofc the situation doesn't get better as we go through the expansion: their impact lessens as ilevels improve. WindSONG has always been a contender though.
    Last edited by rawhammer; 2013-05-28 at 01:36 PM.
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  6. #2266
    Colossus is not a valid contender to the other tank enchants. Windsong or Dancing Steel, take your pick.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-28 at 01:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    Windwalk has always been a contender though.
    What is the proc rate on Windwalk? Feels the movement speed is kinda meeeh, and the dodge is also very low on it.

    Cant remember if the movement speed stacks with other speed increases.
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  7. #2267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Colossus is not a valid contender to the other tank enchants. Windsong or Dancing Steel, take your pick.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-28 at 01:27 PM ----------



    What is the proc rate on Windwalk? Feels the movement speed is kinda meeeh, and the dodge is also very low on it.

    Cant remember if the movement speed stacks with other speed increases.
    oh shhhh

    i meant windsong obv :/

    Too much hot air round here
    Last edited by rawhammer; 2013-05-28 at 01:33 PM.
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  8. #2268
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    Thanks for both the responses... I figured a bunch of 8k damage shield procs wouldn't fair as well as the chance of 2.5% mastery (1500 mastery) and/or 3.5% haste (1500 haste), although both are fairly weak... and with the stat weight drop of parry and the way vengeance plays out with attack power... I didn't feel dancing steel was even something to think about anymore

  9. #2269
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    oh shhhh

    i meant windsong obv :/

    Too much hot air round here
    Haha shit! I was scratching my head over if windwalk actually worked at 90!
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #2270
    Epic! rawhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Haha shit! I was scratching my head over if windwalk actually worked at 90!
    we should all be using mongoose tbh
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  11. #2271
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    mongoose looks pretty, but 30 haste... vs 1500 haste/mastery/crit from windsong

  12. #2272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flunk View Post
    mongoose looks pretty, but 30 haste... vs 1500 haste/mastery/crit from windsong
    if it dont look good, it aint worth havin'
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  13. #2273
    Jeez, holiday weekend here in the US and I go away, so much to catch up on!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nurhlag View Post
    You might need speed on boots for heroic Ji-Kun because some of the nests you won't reach by just jumping off unless you have the enchant or you use a speed boost.

    Speaking of Heroic Ji-Kun, we've been progressing on him on heroic 10 man recently and I get hit like a truck! The other tank is a druid bear and he can soak pools while tanking the boss without dieing and hes in similar gear as me yet, I end up dieing or having really close calls without even trying to soak pools at the same time lol

    Anyone got any tips that might help? I only go onto two nests and we taunt off each other at two talons rake debuffs and I try to time it so I have SotR up for when talon rake hits and on the last pull of the night I gave Hand of Purity as try and that seemed to help but that may just be my imagination...
    The bear has a ton more innate avoidance than you do, so he will have (far) fewer stacks of Infected Talons. This is where most of my damage comes from on that fight, due to such low avoidance. Provided you can and do cover each Rake with a ShotR, I use HoPur and leave DivProt Unglyphed to help with the DOT and to soak pools. We swap at 2 stacks as usual, and I use no CDs for the 2nd hit outside of ShotR, unless I have like 6+ stacks of debuff.

    One last thing I also got Fabled Feather of Ji-Kun today on normal and I currently have a fully upgraded normal spark (obviously gunna keep that) and a Brutal Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault (not sure which is better), anyone have any idea which is better or if theres not a lot of difference between them? Im only going to the expertise soft cap so expertise isn't a huge problem
    Feather is tits, I use it and spark HC and love them both. Reforging hit to haste (obv) still leaves you a good hit bank, which means you can pick up Haste/Stam gems for socket bonuses (if you are so inclined).

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-28 at 02:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kethmil View Post
    @ Nairobi: Recently you posted your AMR stat weights in another post, but in cant find them anymore. Think it was on one of those posts Fhi blocked, prolly deleted now.

    Would you please post them again here? Would like to check how my enchanting/gemming would change with your weights instead of my current ones.

    Very apreciated
    Hmmm, you sure it was me? I don't use AMR, I just reforge manually with my own priority. Hit (7.5) > Exp (7.5-15) > Haste > Exp (to 15, if not) > Mastery >> Crit >>>...>> D/P.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    How do you pala's feel in this patch survivability vise? Our paladin, with haste build, who was easy to keep up/heal, got complaints from healers that after the patch he is harder to keep up. Raid type last night: 10-man normal up to Iron Qon.

    He said that he feels that he should take more of defensive stats now on, rather than DPS ones. If I understood correctly he needs more haste and instead of str. gems he should be using exp. haste ones? Well the expertise/haste gems would IDD allow him to reforge possible more haste.

    But what of his DPS, he is "bit" concerned about his...
    Been touched on, but no, nothing changed for us. Anything he "feels" differently is simply a flux in play more likely. 5% less dmg when ShotR is up is extremely hard to notice unless you are VERY perceptive and VERY familiar with the fight and damage profile.

    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    He'll get more dps benefits from haste then from strength (AP from vengence makes AP from strength a pretty poor distant cousin).

    Honestly though if he is having threat issues then it's more likely a rotational / clicking them buttons quicker issue then a gear problem.

    If he's struggling to hold aggro from the other tank after a switch then pallies already have some pretty awesome tools for sorting that out too.
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Looks like he needs new bracers and helm, his current ones are pretty awful. He needs to swap metas if he is concerned about dmg, the tanking one is pretty weak considering our AM is twice as strong and is controllable. Expertise gemming is superior to strength since it frees him up to reforge more into haste, also would suggest using only hit/haste in blue sockets instead of hit/stam. I'm not too up to date on weapon enchants for prot pally but elemental force seems to be an odd choice. Tier helm or helm off Lei Shen would be best for replacing his current one, I think helm off Lei Shen might be slightly better due to the 180 str socket bonus versus the 180 parry on the tier.
    Both of these are true. Some people avoid socket bonuses totally (@Choice), but others (like me) try to pick up STR/STA bonuses where possible. Even so, EXP gemming to be able to reforge more haste will always have a net benefit over STR.

    Also, DPS meta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riemu2k3 View Post
    Well. It really doesn't matter if he takes socket boni or not - as long as he focuses on geming haste.

    A 100 Haste Socket Bonus isn't worth it if you lose 160 Haste and gain 160 hit that you dont need. If it's a strong bonus like 175 Stam or Mastery or Str and I only have to give up 160 Haste, I usually take them. As long as the Hit/Exp I get is not wasted. If you can't use the Hit/EXP gained from it, don't get the Socket Boni.

    Never ever gem for Parry/Dodge Boni. Unless you just get it along the way (like only one yellow socket).

    I usually gem for it if the Bonus is 1xx with 2 gems or 6x with 1 gem. I don't mind the extra stam/mastery. I'm not _that_ focused on haste. I try to get it whereever I can, but I also like to keep an eye on my Mastery/Stam on the way there.
    Most of our gear (if you get the "good pieces" is going to have STR bonuses anyhow. Some people ignore these, which is fine, but if you can use the color to get some tweak room for caps (like Exp/Haste in reds), you'll get free STR. Sure, it's not much, but it's increased AP (esp when not tanking, if you ever don't) and minor free parry. I wouldn't sweat it over 60 Str, but 120 isn't bad. Obviously avoid avoidance bonuses unless you just get them (even though I felt dirty picking up the parry bonus on the tier helm lol). Also, remember that Stam is blue and Haste/Stam is a good choice in those sockets if you're already hit capped (hi2u Feather).

    You can also bruteforce it and only socket 320 Haste into everything. Works too. If you have too much hit/exp and you absolutely don't care about stamina or mastery, thats fine too.
    This is of course viable, but mostly only at heroic gear levels. Below 522ish, you'll have a hard time meeting caps with this method.

    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    sockets bonuses are good...and a bonus! I always go for them as they look pretty, anyhoo.
    I feel that you may be focusing too much on gear being the issue when there are probably more important things that he can improve (going from what XXXX said about his cd usage and SS uptime on the previous page).
    Focus on the "rotation" and your problems will solve themselves im sure.
    This. Sounds more like EBKAC, given that youre doing his reforges for him, if we're honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flunk View Post
    mongoose looks pretty, but 30 haste... vs 1500 haste/mastery/crit from windsong
    Windsong is OK I guess, but Y U NO Dancing Steel? 50% uptime, even if it IS just STR, is still pretty damn good. I just find windsong underwhelming now, given that the crit is pretty meh, mastery is pretty meh, and the haste is decent but never guaranteed. And, yes, Colossus in 25m is just a waste now, sadly
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-05-28 at 03:16 PM.
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    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
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  14. #2274
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Hmmm, you sure it was me? I don't use AMR, I just reforge manually with my own priority. Hit (7.5) > Exp (7.5-15) > Haste > Exp (to 15, if not) > Mastery >> Crit >>>...>> D/P.
    May have been me. Know I posted some crude weights in a thread.

    On an unrelated note. Just saw a prot paladin in LFR that reforged haste -> parry on a haste trinket.

    Faith in humanity lost. He had reforged all his gear to parry.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-05-28 at 03:11 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #2275
    Yeah, this is why they need to get rid of the stat(s). They're a trap! Not that haste is incredibly intuitive for most new tanks either, but that's another issue too.

    Though, I hope they keep the AGI=Dodge, STR=Parry rule. It got us our first HC Dark Animus kill when our Monk wandered into an orb at ~10% and then dodged the next 8 attacks (trololol). Then I cleared him and saved the day, but that was a tight butthole moment for sure. It's def saved my ass on HC Twins past enrage, and on a few HC Lei Shen moments too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  16. #2276
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    May have been me. Know I posted some crude weights in a thread.

    On an unrelated note. Just saw a prot paladin in LFR that reforged haste -> parry on a haste trinket.

    Faith in humanity lost. He had reforged all his gear to parry.
    I was in an LFR where the pally tank was gemming straight parry. Whispered him, told him about the haste build, and pointed him towards this class forum.

    I only ever healed before MoP, was Parry ever a desirable stat for prot paladins?

  17. #2277
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    I was in an LFR where the pally tank was gemming straight parry. Whispered him, told him about the haste build, and pointed him towards this class forum.

    I only ever healed before MoP, was Parry ever a desirable stat for prot paladins?
    In Cata you wanted it, along with dodge, though mastery > all then. I can't speak of earlier since my pally didn't hit max level until the pre-Cata patch (at which point the gearing strategy for the bulk of Wrath was pretty much obsolete).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  18. #2278
    In cata it was semi desirable. You wanted to reach the CTC cap which was 97.4% parry+dodge+block added together. Yet the most efficient way to reach this was still by getting mastery and once you had that cap it was almost useless. So it was like Mastery >>>>> dodge=parry back then.

    WotLK was Stamina>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #2279
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    In cata it was semi desirable. You wanted to reach the CTC cap which was 97.4% parry+dodge+block added together. Yet the most efficient way to reach this was still by getting mastery and once you had that cap it was almost useless. So it was like Mastery >>>>> dodge=parry back then.

    WotLK was Stamina>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all
    Except for certain fights were you geared for block IIRC...right? (Wrath ofc)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  20. #2280
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    Except for certain fights were you geared for block IIRC...right? (Wrath ofc)
    Block value, and that was for very few fights. I.e. anub'arak HC add tank.

    Think it was some boss in t7/T8 or so aswell, cant remember.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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