1. #2421
    If your math is correct (and I assume it is), I can't imagine Blizzard would let this go live. We'll be seeing 80-90% ShoR uptimes....

  2. #2422
    Finally a tier when i'm going to use tank tier set
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  3. #2423
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    If your math is correct (and I assume it is), I can't imagine Blizzard would let this go live. We'll be seeing 80-90% ShoR uptimes....
    Actually more.

    Did some napkin maths. At 50% haste (which is probably reasonable in the next tier of gear). You can have 75% uptime on SotR without talents and GC procs. Checking a full weeks clear, GC procs was about 7% of the holy power I generated on bosses. Lets scale that down and say it is 5% of the holy power than you gain. That means that with GC you should be seeing uptimes of 79%. Still, this is without talents!

    Okay, so now lets look at how this change effects DP. Getting a proc on the first SotR in the SotR - WoG - SotR spam, is essentially a wasted proc. A procs during the WoG and the second SotR is likely to cause you to overcap HoPo aswell. So, this lowers the relative value of DP a bit.

    Before you had 5 proc opportunities in 15 HoPo. Now you got 5 in 16 HoPo, with one of them probably wating 1-2 HoPo.

    Before DP was basically a 1.33% increase in effective uptime, think it is pretty safe to say that it is about 1.3%.

    Which would put the uptime at 50% haste at about 102%. Now, there is another thing, about the DP procs that we have to remember. Each DP proc also generates 0.8 HoPo through WoG. Now this value is course lower as we mentioned earlier, some DP procs will cause all gained HoPo to be wasted. So lets say each DP proc gives 0.5-0.6 HoPo in average.

    During a 10 minute fight, you would have about 158 SotR and 31 WoG counting GC procs in, which would be about 62 GC procs, which would generate another 30-39 HoPo, which in turn would turn into 15-20 SotRs, or another 45-60. Concluding the total number of SotRs on that fight to between 235-240. Now this is in candy land where everything works in your favor. So lets say 210-260 SotRs in a 10 minute fight depending on luck This is still 105-130% uptime.

    With that 4p, 100% uptime will for sure be obtainable.
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  4. #2424
    They're going to have to make less items with haste attractive to us. I'm already pushing close to 18k, and the max I can figure I could achieve this tier would be almost 19k (43%) I would just need another 3k-ish to make 50%.

    The 2p is good, the 4p looks mediocre. A HOT when you use GoAK?



  5. #2425
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    Guys.
    Why do we take haste again? I think we take it for increasing uptime of SotR, right?
    If the 2pc bonus makes us able to achieve a way higher uptime of SotR - if we can play it correctly^^ - why the hell would we even need haste? if firefly is roughly correct with his math, I'm pretty sure there won't be a problem to drop a few k of haste. maybe starting with the 4 tier items for the bonus, plus replacing all haste gems with mastery or stamina.
    if doing this still qualifies for 100% uptime of sotr, mastery becomes even stronger. at least for physical damage. holy cow.

    edit:
    for the stats on the tier piece:

    chest - dodge parry
    hands - dodge expertise
    legs - parry hit
    head - expertise mastery
    shoulders - hit mastery

    so, offset chest it is, and if you are only going for 2 piece, you take head n shoulders.
    Last edited by xebtria; 2013-06-12 at 08:00 AM.

  6. #2426
    Haste still increases your SS, SoI and DPS.

    There is a fair amount of 10 man tanks that prefer critical strike over a lot of the other stats. Crit provides less dps than haste and less survivability increase even at 100% sotr uptime. The value of haste an offensive stat is still there and it still provides a non-trivial survivability increase. Even with above 100% uptime on SotR, I would still go for 50% haste.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #2427
    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    Guys.
    Why do we take haste again? I think we take it for increasing uptime of SotR, right?
    Because you're so OP that you don't really need to worry about survival, so you just stack dps stats. Haste gives better survival than crit, as a consolation prize, so you just favor that because why not?

    Grumble grumble grumble.

    But really, it is primarily for the dps. I think it's been shown pretty conclusively that other stats are better with smoothing and TDR, last I checked. Then again, 100% uptime on Shield Wall is pretty smooth...

  8. #2428
    2pc t15 + 16 might be an interesting combo.
    Too bad it looks like they're going to keep putting lots and lots of dodge/parry on set items /:
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  9. #2429
    We don't want a 4p that allows us to get 100% uptime on SoTR to go live. IF this 4 piece makes it live blizzard will nerf SoTR. We've seen it time and time again throughout WoW's history, the root cause of the problem doesn't get nerfed, the effect it has does. I'll call it now, if this makes it live a couple weeks into the patch we'll have a SoTR nerf.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-12 at 06:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiqjaq View Post
    Because you're so OP that you don't really need to worry about survival, so you just stack dps stats. Haste gives better survival than crit, as a consolation prize, so you just favor that because why not?

    Grumble grumble grumble.

    But really, it is primarily for the dps. I think it's been shown pretty conclusively that other stats are better with smoothing and TDR, last I checked. Then again, 100% uptime on Shield Wall is pretty smooth...
    The other ones are better at reducing overall dmg and large spikes, haste is better for smoothing.

  10. #2430
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    The other ones are better at reducing overall dmg and large spikes, haste is better for smoothing.
    Haste is better at smoothening a static damage in-take (no boss ever). Stamina is better for smoothening an unpredictable dynamic damage in-take and dynamic magic damage in-take. Mastery is better as smoothening predictable dynamic melee damage in-take.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    We don't want a 4p that allows us to get 100% uptime on SoTR to go live. IF this 4 piece makes it live blizzard will nerf SoTR. We've seen it time and time again throughout WoW's history, the root cause of the problem doesn't get nerfed, the effect it has does. I'll call it now, if this makes it live a couple weeks into the patch we'll have a SoTR nerf.
    While this is possible, maintaining 100% uptime will still be very hard. Only the top 1-2% of raiding paladins will be able to do it. Those players that are now ranking consistantly in the top 100's. It is not a free 100% uptime exactly. Do not really think blizzard is gonna do some massive change to SotR mid 5.4
    Maybe a small nerf in 5.5 but we can live with that.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-12 at 09:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    2pc t15 + 16 might be an interesting combo.
    Too bad it looks like they're going to keep putting lots and lots of dodge/parry on set items /:
    Stats on T15 still sucks, so not even a question for me about preferring T16 off-set/ret pieces.
    I think the T10 2p is more interesting than the T15 2p.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #2431
    So long as you have ShoR active for the boss attacks, you can let it drop between them and still have 100% effective uptime, even if you don't have 100% absolute uptime.
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  12. #2432
    Still, anyone that is skilled enough to track boss swing timers and time SotR accordingly with 100% success is probably good enough to have 100% uptime on SotR aswell with T15 2p.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #2433
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Haste is better at smoothening a static damage in-take (no boss ever). Stamina is better for smoothening an unpredictable dynamic damage in-take and dynamic magic damage in-take. Mastery is better as smoothening predictable dynamic melee damage in-take.




    While this is possible, maintaining 100% uptime will still be very hard. Only the top 1-2% of raiding paladins will be able to do it. Those players that are now ranking consistantly in the top 100's. It is not a free 100% uptime exactly. Do not really think blizzard is gonna do some massive change to SotR mid 5.4
    Maybe a small nerf in 5.5 but we can live with that.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-12 at 09:32 AM ----------



    Stats on T15 still sucks, so not even a question for me about preferring T16 off-set/ret pieces.
    I think the T10 2p is more interesting than the T15 2p.
    If there is even a possibility of keeping 100% uptime, regardless of 2% of paladins being able to do it, blizzard won't let it happen. The masses will qq more about an "unhittable" tank than they ever did about our dps, battle healer healing and ability to immune mechanics/clear debuffs/solo tank easily. I know it won't be free uptime, and I know it requires better than average play to make full effect of the bonus as is, but I guarantee it will not stand if ANYONE is keeping 100% uptime on SoTR.

  14. #2434
    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    Guys.
    Why do we take haste again? I think we take it for increasing uptime of SotR, right?
    If the 2pc bonus makes us able to achieve a way higher uptime of SotR - if we can play it correctly^^ - why the hell would we even need haste? if firefly is roughly correct with his math, I'm pretty sure there won't be a problem to drop a few k of haste. maybe starting with the 4 tier items for the bonus, plus replacing all haste gems with mastery or stamina.
    if doing this still qualifies for 100% uptime of sotr, mastery becomes even stronger. at least for physical damage. holy cow.

    edit:
    for the stats on the tier piece:

    chest - dodge parry
    hands - dodge expertise
    legs - parry hit
    head - expertise mastery
    shoulders - hit mastery

    so, offset chest it is, and if you are only going for 2 piece, you take head n shoulders.
    Yeah....no. That's not at all "the reason" we take haste. Haste boosts our SS and SOI power (meaning our self heals/absorbs), reduces our ability CD and GCDs, increases attack speed, AND increases SHotR uptime. Dropping 3-4k of haste for any reason is pretty foolish, and shooting yourself in the foot before you attempt to run the race. The 4 tier items (as you linked, though they appear to be placeholder replicas of this tier) are utterly crap itemized. Head/Shoulders are passable, but with how underwhelming the 4pc is versus how much haste/accuracy you lose, there is no reason to take more than 2pcs as currently listed.

    Also, Mastery is a great stat for reducing physical damage, but thus far in this expansion, Phys damage has never been threatening to any tank (if mechanics are followed). Stacking Mastery, unless you're over 50% haste already, is just reducing your smoothing and throughput. Replacing haste gems with stam gems is also a poor way to get stamina in; you're better off swapping trinkets around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiqjaq View Post
    Because you're so OP that you don't really need to worry about survival, so you just stack dps stats. Haste gives better survival than crit, as a consolation prize, so you just favor that because why not?

    Grumble grumble grumble.

    But really, it is primarily for the dps. I think it's been shown pretty conclusively that other stats are better with smoothing and TDR, last I checked. Then again, 100% uptime on Shield Wall is pretty smooth...
    Lol, made me chuckle. To be fair though, it is a pretty easy "gearing strategy" though...about on par with BDK (lulmastery). As above, the DPS is indeed a huge portion, but it's also our best "overall" smoothing stat, in terms of phys redux via ShotR uptime AND static heal/absorb boosts from SOI/SS. Also, TDR is nonimportant, but even if it was, avoidance will win that contest every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    2pc t15 + 16 might be an interesting combo.
    Too bad it looks like they're going to keep putting lots and lots of dodge/parry on set items /:
    Holding judgement til we see real t16 stats, BUT I thought the exact same thing. We'd just have to hope that the t16 chest/hands/legs don't blow ass again, else I fear we'll be hard pressed to reach 50% haste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Still, anyone that is skilled enough to track boss swing timers and time SotR accordingly with 100% success is probably good enough to have 100% uptime on SotR aswell with T15 2p.
    This. This is important. Not every Joe-Blow will be able to even think about HOW to abuse the set bonii to end up with 90%+ uptimes, and even of the ones that DO posit the idea, only a minority will be able to make it work in practice. Even though I think you meant t16 (not 15) 2pc bonus in terms of SHotR contributions. At any rate, this is all great discussion on what is possible, but I don't think most people should have any illusion of being able to micromanage these buffs/bonii to make this a common occurrence while simultaneously handling their actual tank duties. Either way, we still need to see what the actual tier stats will be (hint: this is me STILL hoping they don't go live as posted currently...) I'm reeeeeally hoping for less D/P crap so as not to be shoehorned into head&shoulders again...

    On that note, I got my shoulders for 2pc last night for shits-n-gigs, and am now 1%+ over hit cap Fking stuck with JinRohk chest, and Animus is being stingy! Oh well, ended up getting my cape and a HC TF LeiShen shield last night (looks badass! too bad it doesnt match the CM set...), so I guess it's not all bad.

    edit: OH! AND I broke 20k Achiv pts finally!
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-06-12 at 12:39 PM.
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    20k and counting...

  15. #2435
    Grats on the 20k, geez. I don't think I even broke 10k yet. Also, now that I know you have the CM set, I'm beginning to harbor a little animosity towards you. Been trying to get a few buddies to tackle CMs, but our schedules never match up. I want to look like a blue bug too.


    I noticed that I broke 40% haste raid buffed last night, and I'm only seeing 55% ShoR uptime. Granted, I really need to get better with my rotation (I have a bad habit of messing up my rotation when the fight gets all kerfuffled) but would 10% extra hate really help me bump up that ShoR uptime to ~70%?

    I'm trying to decide if I can even think about a potential 90-100% uptime next tier.

  16. #2436
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Yeah....no. That's not at all "the reason" we take haste. Haste boosts our SS and SOI power (meaning our self heals/absorbs)
    Pretty sure it does not boost SS directly, it just reduces the time between ticks, effectively introducing some sort of soft cap per tick (which I don't know where they are, tbh). so it only boosts it when you bypass each cap, and it effectively does nothing afterwards - until you reach the next one. Am I wrong here?
    and of SoI - yeah it increases the amount of ticks via
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    increases attack speed,
    which I am pretty sure is the only thing the increased attack speed does, isn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    reduces our ability CD and GCDs [...] AND increases SHotR uptime
    well basically the reduced ability and global CD actually IS what increases the SHotR uptime.

    so, from my understanding, haste has some soft caps for SS ticks and a hard cap for Global Cooldown.
    it increases ShoTR uptime by reducing ability and global CD.
    and it increases the amount of ticks of SoI (only question is - what is a melee attack? white hits? melee abilities (CS/Hammer)? all abilities? nevertheless, there are no caps, this increases in all possible understandings of "melee attacks" linear with every point of haste).

    IF I would have the T16 2 set bonus already and I'm skilled enough to easily get 100% uptime of ShoTR with it, and If I knew the soft caps for the SS ticks... I'd go max haste, and reach ... maybe ... 22k. so the next cap is 23k, and I have no chance to add another 1k haste, and the previous cap would be 20k. so I'd remove 2k haste (easily done via gems), and put them into mastery (or stamina). because I believe, that the extra stamina or mastery provides a bigger defensive benefit than the extra heals from SoI and the more DPS from more buttons being pushed would.

    Soo... if I am still reaching 100% uptime with T16-2pc and that 2k less haste, this part of the argument (more buttons, higher uptime) simply renders invalid. If I am NOT reaching 100% anymore with that less haste, then ofc haste is more important, so I hope you see my point.

    but then again, I get some upgrades, and now I AM able to reach the next cap, then haste here I come. the above only applies to go down the PREVIOUS cap IF I am not able to reach the NEXT cap.

    other than this, of course, haste smoothes damage more than mastery does, but IF I already HAVE 100% SHotR uptime, it can't be smoothed any further with more haste. it is as smooth as it can get. and mastery then reduces the damage taken even further. And if you don't like mastery for whatever reason, you still can put it into stamina simply to increase your EH.

    numbers, as always, are just made up to illustrate the PoV.
    Last edited by xebtria; 2013-06-12 at 01:48 PM.

  17. #2437
    There is no magical caps on ss, each point is worth just as much as the next, arguably when SS reaches 3/4.5 seconds are soft caps because of them becoming a multiplicant of boss swing timers. 22.5k haste is what you should shoot for, regardless of what.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #2438
    Dreadlord rawhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    Pretty sure it does not boost SS directly, it just reduces the time between ticks, effectively introducing some sort of soft cap per tick (which I don't know where they are, tbh). so it only boosts it when you bypass each cap, and it effectively does nothing afterwards - until you reach the next one. Am I wrong here?
    and of SoI - yeah it increases the amount of ticks via

    which I am pretty sure is the only thing the increased attack speed does, isn't it?

    well basically the reduced ability and global CD actually IS what increases the SHotR uptime.

    so, from my understanding, haste has some soft caps for SS ticks and a hard cap for Global Cooldown.
    it increases ShoTR uptime by reducing ability and global CD.
    and it increases the amount of ticks of SoI (only question is - what is a melee attack? white hits? melee abilities (CS/Hammer)? all abilities? nevertheless, there are no caps, this increases in all possible understandings of "melee attacks" linear with every point of haste).

    IF I would have the T16 2 set bonus already and I'm skilled enough to easily get 100% uptime of ShoTR with it, and If I knew the soft caps for the SS ticks... I'd go max haste, and reach ... maybe ... 22k. so the next cap is 23k, and I have no chance to add another 1k haste, and the previous cap would be 20k. so I'd remove 2k haste (easily done via gems), and put them into mastery (or stamina). because I believe, that the extra stamina or mastery provides a bigger defensive benefit than the extra heals from SoI and the more DPS from more buttons being pushed would.

    Soo... if I am still reaching 100% uptime with T16-2pc and that 2k less haste, this part of the argument (more buttons, higher uptime) simply renders invalid. If I am NOT reaching 100% anymore with that less haste, then ofc haste is more important, so I hope you see my point.

    but then again, I get some upgrades, and now I AM able to reach the next cap, then haste here I come. the above only applies to go down the PREVIOUS cap IF I am not able to reach the NEXT cap.

    other than this, of course, haste smoothes damage more than mastery does, but IF I already HAVE 100% SHotR uptime, it can't be smoothed any further with more haste. it is as smooth as it can get. and mastery then reduces the damage taken even further. And if you don't like mastery for whatever reason, you still can put it into stamina simply to increase your EH.

    numbers, as always, are just made up to illustrate the PoV.
    Whilst you're right about SS having a theoritcal cap to it's usefulness, the amount of damage we take in content that matters (hc raid boss encounters) the SS will easily get absorbed with every melee hit which occurs (normall) every 1.5 secs, never mind all the other magic attacks/dots/shit on floor etc we take damage from, and as such in practise this "cap" is irrelevent.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-12 at 02:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    There is no magical caps on ss, each point is worth just as much as the next, arguably when SS reaches 3/4.5 seconds are soft caps because of them becoming a multiplicant of boss swing timers. 22.5k haste is what you should shoot for, regardless of what.
    I think what he was getting at is if your SS tics are short enough then you wont be taking enough damage between tics to fully use the shield before it gets reapplied. i think that's what he meant.

    EDIT: actually re-reading what Xebtria said, he saying that the haste benefit to SS only comes in after hitting certain thresholds (which is wrong - extra "tics" only happen if you let SS expire before refreshing). so if you like you can ignore this post.
    Last edited by rawhammer; 2013-06-12 at 01:55 PM.
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  19. #2439
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    so what does haste to SS?

    it does NOT reduce the (big) buff's duration, this is 30 seconds, right?
    so with 0 haste, you get 5 shields out of that 30 seconds (it procs every 6), and that duration is also 6 seconds, meaning, when the big buff wears off, you get the last proc (the first is after 6 seconds).
    now you have some haste and the duration is 5.5 secs and the proc span is 5.5, making the 6th proc being made at the mark of 30.25 seconds. too bad this is 0.25 seconds too late. so add a little more, so that both are at 5.47, so the 6th proc is at the 29.9209 mark, right before the big one wears off. sooo... question being....

    if you say, that every point of haste is worth as much as the next regarding sacred shield - where is the fallacy on my side here? because I don't see the reason why there should not be some sort of soft cap.

    if you are right (and I have the feeling that you are, and will show me where I'm thinking the wrong way), this totally bursts my bubble of hast being able to be ... measured out, if one has the T16 2 pc and achieves 100% ShotR uptime with that.

    also editing my part here: I guess I see that point I am wrong - letting run out SS. But I don't see the SS buff last like 40 seconds, so just taking a random guess from way back in my memory here - Using my theory of the "soft caps", I need to refresh SS after the theoretical last proc before the big buff runs out, correct?

    edit: If I am - is there a possible trigger for a weak aura here?
    * check - depending on the haste amount - if the next tick of SS would occur after the "Big" buff runs out
    show icon 1 (e.g: normal SS icon)
    * and if the big buff is missing completely
    show icon 2 (e.g. a red SS icon, showing that I failed hard and let SS run out)

    that would be nice. depending that my random guess from above is correct.
    Last edited by xebtria; 2013-06-12 at 02:06 PM.

  20. #2440
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    edit: OH! AND I broke 20k Achiv pts finally!
    Time to change that signature!

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