1. #2621
    That makes sense, since DK/Warrior are getting an ability that increases their critical strike % whenever they dodge/parry. So they build the "traditional" D/P/M items and gain crit, while we continue to go H/M.



  2. #2622
    That is a bandaid fix however to try to prevent paladins/monks/druids dps scaling to well with gear. That change does not make dks/warriors prefer dps stats, it just makes their dps scale with defensive stats so they dont fall so far behind.
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  3. #2623
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    That is a bandaid fix however to try to prevent paladins/monks/druids dps scaling to well with gear. That change does not make dks/warriors prefer dps stats, it just makes their dps scale with defensive stats so they dont fall so far behind.
    Yeah but the fact that they put that in as a fix specifically, doing x defensive thing gives you crit, tells me that they've got DPS stats on their minds for tanks. In the past they would have messed with how their abilities scaled instead of a fix like this. Makes me hopeful for next expac.

  4. #2624
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    Yeah but the fact that they put that in as a fix specifically, doing x defensive thing gives you crit, tells me that they've got DPS stats on their minds for tanks. In the past they would have messed with how their abilities scaled instead of a fix like this. Makes me hopeful for next expac.
    What bothers me is that they chose the defensive stats -> offense route rather than the offensive stats -> defense route. It makes me question if they actually want warriors/dks/paladin to use offensive stats in the next expansion.
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  5. #2625
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    What bothers me is that they chose the defensive stats -> offense route rather than the offensive stats -> defense route. It makes me question if they actually want warriors/dks/paladin to use offensive stats in the next expansion.
    Guess that's just a bandaid fix for now... and well hopefully they decide to go all the way through with merging avoidance/dps stats for the next addon.
    Sadly it doesn't work for DKs at all and seems to be on the mehish side for warriors (although they get some cool crit scaling)
    Last edited by Nillo; 2013-06-25 at 11:53 PM.
    Armories:
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    Dk: Telare
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  6. #2626
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    Active mitigation is certainly here to stay. The actual mechanics of how it works will inevitably go through changes in the next expansion.

    That being said the way pally tanks interact with haste has been a resounding success (though I'm guessing more by luck then actual design -don't think they foresaw the haste stacking direction the community took when we started in MoP). It's never been as fun, which is surely a good direction to take.

    I think they need to bring the other tank class mechanics in line with pallies (and monks), more than changing us.
    Exactly...put them at our level, not vice versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    Do you think the current Haste/Control build will be dismantled come next expansion? It seems that the devs want us to choose dodge/parry over more "offensive" stats like haste (judging from the amount of D/P on our tier sets)...but that said, I don't understand why they introduced Sanctity of Battle for Prot. It seems like a huge oversight on their part not to expect Haste-focused builds by giving us said passive.
    I like SotR, and I like that it's not 100% coverage. That's skilless. 40-60%, somewhere in there, that feels about right. You're rewarded for having fast reflexes + keybinds (considerable uptime over say 20-30% from a clicker) but it's not so high that you're invincible. When's the last time you ever died when you had SotR up (in normal circumstances)? You also have to worry about timing it correctly, not just spam it mindlessly or as Theck points out macro it to every single ability you have. They've got to do something with Haste scaling and SoB, irrespective of the T16 4p.

    SotR is PERFECT for Blizzard's new model on tanking. Without it and other AM abilities they cannot have Snapping Bite or Triple Puncture. There aren't enough CDs available for it. So they can't dismantle SotR unless they want to bring us back to being no more than dumb meatshields. Lowering the time on its coverage to 1-2.5s will hurt everyone, yes, but it'll affect bad/average players the most.

  7. #2627
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    That makes sense, since DK/Warrior are getting an ability that increases their critical strike % whenever they dodge/parry. So they build the "traditional" D/P/M items and gain crit, while we continue to go H/M.
    I think the main reason they did this is because changing two specs gearing priorities just for the final tier would be a total kick in the nuts, and balancing them to work fine with both is far too difficult if they're just going to overhaul it in a few months anyway

  8. #2628
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    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    40-60%, somewhere in there, that feels about right. You're rewarded for having fast reflexes + keybinds (considerable uptime over say 20-30% from a clicker) but it's not so high that you're invincible.
    /sigh. I don't think I lose 20-30% uptime by clicking :/
    Sorry, pet peeve of mine!

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 07:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    I think the main reason they did this is because changing two specs gearing priorities just for the final tier would be a total kick in the nuts, and balancing them to work fine with both is far too difficult if they're just going to overhaul it in a few months anyway
    Yup, totally agree with this. They are not going to change any classes mechanics now, a big revamp will ofc come next exp.

    One area I think they do need to tweek pallies though is with wog. In its current form it is not really used at all, they've tried to make it more appealing through set bonuses, but that's not really worked out due to shitty gear itemisation on tier this exp.

  9. #2629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    The only thing I can think of is them massively nerfing base mastery and increasing the value of mastery to compensate - this way you'll have to invest into some mastery rather than going all haste.
    I don't see how they ever can fix a problem (in that case: haste. which is no problem to begin with, though) with changing something else (mastery).
    IF ANYTHING, I could see them making haste effected by DR, just as they did with mastery so you can't reach "unhittable" anymore...

    but let's not talk about worst case scenarios here....

  10. #2630
    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    I don't see how they ever can fix a problem (in that case: haste. which is no problem to begin with, though) with changing something else (mastery).
    IF ANYTHING, I could see them making haste effected by DR, just as they did with mastery so you can't reach "unhittable" anymore...

    but let's not talk about worst case scenarios here....
    The problem here is that the problem is not with haste, it is how tanking is designed in this expansion. As long as tank survivability is not a problem (which it isnt atleast in 10 man), dps becomes the priority. Shifting weight out from haste would just cause a lot of tanks to pick up crit instead.
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  11. #2631
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    basically what I said. if there is a problem, then it is with haste. but then again, why do people take haste? and then it's what you said. active mitigation. I never understood why they changed it to active mitigation and then they put bosses with FOUR DROPS which are dodge/parry in there. dodge/parry items are pretty much the one thing that is furthest away from "active" and "mitigation".

    but yes. due to the system, haste is the best thing that can be done to a prot paladin. IF they are gonna change anything but haste, nothing will change. if they change haste, people will just move over to the next thing. and that won't be dodge or parry.

  12. #2632
    What I enjoy the most about the 4p is that if it sticks, it removes all reason to use HA. I heavily dislike HA and has never used it this expansion since I feel it is very weak compared to both alternatives. If this 4p goes live, it basically kills the only niche use HA has. Havent done the math on SW yet, but possible we will see the return of SW to be the primary defensive T5 talent and DP being the offensive one.
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  13. #2633
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    What bothers me is that they chose the defensive stats -> offense route rather than the offensive stats -> defense route. It makes me question if they actually want warriors/dks/paladin to use offensive stats in the next expansion.
    I'm hoping/assuming that they DO, in fact, want to revisit the stats in the game at some point fast approaching, but that it is one of those things "best left for an expansion".

    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    I think the main reason they did this is because changing two specs gearing priorities just for the final tier would be a total kick in the nuts, and balancing them to work fine with both is far too difficult if they're just going to overhaul it in a few months anyway
    We've heard over and over how they are happy with the paladin paradigm, and think it is in a good place, which makes me think the REAL solution would be to ...

    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    Exactly...put them at our level, not vice versa.
    Here's hoping, anyway.

    I like SotR, and I like that it's not 100% coverage. That's skilless. 40-60%, somewhere in there, that feels about right. You're rewarded for having fast reflexes + keybinds (considerable uptime over say 20-30% from a clicker) but it's not so high that you're invincible. When's the last time you ever died when you had SotR up (in normal circumstances)? You also have to worry about timing it correctly, not just spam it mindlessly or as Theck points out macro it to every single ability you have. They've got to do something with Haste scaling and SoB, irrespective of the T16 4p.

    SotR is PERFECT for Blizzard's new model on tanking. Without it and other AM abilities they cannot have Snapping Bite or Triple Puncture. There aren't enough CDs available for it. So they can't dismantle SotR unless they want to bring us back to being no more than dumb meatshields. Lowering the time on its coverage to 1-2.5s will hurt everyone, yes, but it'll affect bad/average players the most.
    While I do think that having 100% uptime on an AM ability is a bit ridiculous in ten entry/mid tiers, how is it going to be prevented in later tiers without making the scaling absolutely abysmal? You could have it high to start, then scale really poorly with X stat, which just makes people avoid X. Or you could have it low, but scale well with X, which makes people cram as much X in as possible. In a world based on math, it takes just a few hours tops each expansion to determine which is the best stat and which is "trash". Also, without 4pt16, we still won't see 100% uptime of ShotR in t16 without close to BIS gear. Is that REALLY that big of a deal? You have the best gear possible, so you're obviously going to be stronk. We see this with crit scaling in DPS classes all the time.

    Either way, I hope ShotR stays as is, since it's a powerful, short duration ability that allows for some very creative encounter design and playstyle.

    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    basically what I said. if there is a problem, then it is with haste. but then again, why do people take haste? and then it's what you said. active mitigation. I never understood why they changed it to active mitigation and then they put bosses with FOUR DROPS which are dodge/parry in there. dodge/parry items are pretty much the one thing that is furthest away from "active" and "mitigation".

    but yes. due to the system, haste is the best thing that can be done to a prot paladin. IF they are gonna change anything but haste, nothing will change. if they change haste, people will just move over to the next thing. and that won't be dodge or parry.
    I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. Haste is the problem, and the best thing that can be done? Apologies if there is a language barrier. Either way, the reason that we see so much haste stacking, particularly in 10m, is not for the AM uptime. It is for the increased throughput AND because of the fact that 10m damage intake is pretty laughable. What we are seeing now/will see soon is just the product of end tier scaling. People were not knocking on the door of 90%+ uptime in MSV, remember.

    Also, feel you on the f'king dodge/parry shit itemization. We got HC TF PARRY bracers last night. WOO! Also got like 8 capes across 13 bosses... WHY ARE THERE SO MANY CAPES?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    One area I think they do need to tweek pallies though is with wog. In its current form it is not really used at all, they've tried to make it more appealing through set bonuses, but that's not really worked out due to shitty gear itemisation on tier this exp.
    Totally agree. It's a catch-22: you want to save WOG for when you REALLY need it, else it will be weak. But, to get the most out of our set bonus(es), we need to use it often for the HoPo gains or Block %. It's just....clunky. I'm still running 2pc Ht15 because I like the "mini-CD" of WOG that I get, but I use it so infrequently I may just swap it back out now that I got the HC TF Animus helm and still am over hit cap (still no conq chest wtf!).

    I think it would actually be really cool to keep things how they are on PTR atm. Having SS (Holy Shield, now) baseline allows us to take EF, which we can/should cast far more frequently than base WOG. I guess it'd be OP, and would likely force us into EF, which doesn't really "fix" the whole mandatory talent thing, but just a thought.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 12:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    What I enjoy the most about the 4p is that if it sticks, it removes all reason to use HA. I heavily dislike HA and has never used it this expansion since I feel it is very weak compared to both alternatives. If this 4p goes live, it basically kills the only niche use HA has. Havent done the math on SW yet, but possible we will see the return of SW to be the primary defensive T5 talent and DP being the offensive one.
    Tank 3+ adds on HC DA and tell me HA is weak. Same with HC IQ last phase, when it was relevant.

    But yes, as our haste continues to go up, it's foothold is weakening commensurately. t16 4p could indeed be the deathknell.

    Still not sure what you see in SW (!) but if we can achieve 100% uptime with just tier and gear, then SW is basically 30 sec of free +heal, which FINALLY makes it worth SOMETHING, to me.
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  14. #2634
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Tank 3+ adds on HC DA and tell me HA is weak. Same with HC IQ last phase, when it was relevant.

    But yes, as our haste continues to go up, it's foothold is weakening commensurately. t16 4p could indeed be the deathknell.

    Still not sure what you see in SW (!) but if we can achieve 100% uptime with just tier and gear, then SW is basically 30 sec of free +heal, which FINALLY makes it worth SOMETHING, to me.
    Which is why I said it kills HAs niche uses, since it we are able to get 100% uptime on SotR regardless of T5 talent, HA just flat out becomes to weakest talent. HA got a place in paladin tanking in just those situations as just described, however the 4p will change that.
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  15. #2635
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Which is why I said it kills HAs niche uses, since it we are able to get 100% uptime on SotR regardless of T5 talent, HA just flat out becomes to weakest talent. HA got a place in paladin tanking in just those situations as just described, however the 4p will change that.
    Which is why I said I agreed with you (once t16 hits)!

    Was more arguing against the comment that it "has always been weak".
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  16. #2636
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Which is why I said I agreed with you (once t16 hits)!

    Was more arguing against the comment that it "has always been weak".
    Hmm... Should not have said weak... All T5 talents are strong. I just think HA drew the niche straw more often than the go-to straw.

    If we look at the tiers, we had T14, DP really draw the short straw here, this is simply due to how well DP scales with haste and we did not have so much of it in T14. SW drew the long straw here, since it fitted well into most fights, it is the least haste reliant T5 talent, it provided the highest dps increase aswell as the insane scaling with ret 4p if you had your hands on that. HA had its uses aswell here, on some fight it was great.

    In T15 SW drew the short straw, it fits awkwardly into most fights, no more ret 4p and our increased haste levels made DP far surpass SW. SW did no longer provide the highest dps increase aswell. The only fight where SW is actually great on is Durumu. Basically what happened in T15 was that SW and DP switched roles. DP become the go-to option with HA still being viable and better on some fights (as those you mentioned earlier) for those niche uses.

    T16 would look the same as T15 if it was not for the T16 4p. Since it allows 100% SotR uptime it makes HA pretty much useless compared to DP. Not only will HA feel very awkward to use with the 4p, it just simply provide no benefit at all over DP if both reach 100% uptime. However, since with DP you will be able to reach around 130-150%~ uptime, this creates an interesting choice between the other two. Basically SW catches up in the SotR uptime department. So what you get is an active choice. A 20% healing taken buff for 30 seconds ever 3 minutes vs more damage. A defensive CD vs more dps.
    I forsee DP being the go-to talent and SW being a niche for those fights you need that healing increase in T16 if nothing changes.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 12:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Also, without 4pt16, we still won't see 100% uptime of ShotR in t16 without close to BIS gear. Is that REALLY that big of a deal? You have the best gear possible, so you're obviously going to be stronk. We see this with crit scaling in DPS classes all the time..
    You will be able to reach 100% SotR with almost 0% haste if you are using DP instead of HA.

    Edit: Yeah, double checked using a 100 minute fight with low GC proc rate (gc providing a 5% HoPo increase). Theoretical max uptime at 0% haste and T15 4p was 112% uptime. Though, that is not considering that a lot of HoPo gets wasted when you get GC procs on the fifth sotr and the WoG, aswell as dp procs not being fully used if they proc on the fifth SotR as you wont gain any more BoG stacks on it. So around the 100% +-5% seems more reasonable. Though again, that was with a very low GC proc rate so with normal GC proc rate it would probably be a few % higher.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-06-26 at 12:58 PM.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #2637
    You will be able to reach 100% SotR with almost 0% haste if you are using DP instead of HA.
    Can I ask, how you are coming to this conclusion?
    It seems rather exaggerated.
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It's kinda amazing how many hands these guys have, anyway. Our tank pally can put his hands on 3 different people and still hold his weapon and shield and make unsavory gestures towards enemies.

  18. #2638
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    Can I ask, how you are coming to this conclusion?
    It seems rather exaggerated.
    100 minute fight. 6000 seconds. 1333 CS/HotR, 889 J (presuming you start the fight with a J on pull), presume 5% increase from GC, or 112 procs (now, on average you would get 160 procs from CS alone disregarding dogde/parry procs so this is very very very low).
    That is 2334 HoPo to work with from the start. Remove 16 to complete the first "cycle", since you wont start the fight with 5 BoG stacks. Lets also round down in favor of lower uptime that you dont get any DP procs from the first cycle. 2328 HoPo left. On each cycle you will on average get 2 DP procs. Lowering the amount of Hopo you need to reg to complete a cycle to 5. 2328/5 = 465.6 cycles. Add in the first cycle and round down so we got 464 cycles.
    That is 464x5 SotRs or 2330 SotRs, 6720 seconds of SotR, 112% uptime.

    The problem with this is, as I mentioned in the last post, that it is a fairy tale world where you would only get procs DP procs on the first 4 SotRs. So in reality this would cause some HoPo overcapping lowering the uptime a bit, however you would also regain a lot more HoPo from GC than in this example so 100% or above seems fairly reasonable.

    The problem is, people have not yet understood how insane the synergy between DP and the 4p is.
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  19. #2639
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Stuff about previous tiers and DP vs SW vs HA...
    I forsee DP being the go-to talent and SW being a niche for those fights you need that healing increase in T16 if nothing changes.
    Yep, pretty much what I came to as well, underlined the big caveat though.

    You will be able to reach 100% SotR with almost 0% haste if you are using DP instead of HA.
    Note that my comment stated that without 4pt16, we won't see 100% uptime without BIS (IE high haste off-set) gear.

    Edit: Yeah, double checked using a 100 minute fight with low GC proc rate (gc providing a 5% HoPo increase). Theoretical max uptime at 0% haste and T15 4p was 112% uptime. Though, that is not considering that a lot of HoPo gets wasted when you get GC procs on the fifth sotr and the WoG, aswell as dp procs not being fully used if they proc on the fifth SotR as you wont gain any more BoG stacks on it. So around the 100% +-5% seems more reasonable. Though again, that was with a very low GC proc rate so with normal GC proc rate it would probably be a few % higher.
    Assuming you meant t16 here, but anyway...Still want to make sure we're modeling this properly. Are you absoultely certain that with ZERO native haste and JUST the 4pc bonus (and DP), you're going to meet and exceed 100% uptime? I just...don't see how. With 20k+ haste, sure, of course. With zero? I need to see some actual math/testing.

    Edit - saw your post above, and I can't find flaws with the math on that. Obviously it's stochastic, but it's also heavily favored against haste, so ANY haste values would only further push us to/above 100%. I just...it just....doesn't make sense.
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-06-26 at 01:24 PM.
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  20. #2640
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Assuming you meant t16 here, but anyway...Still want to make sure we're modeling this properly. Are you absoultely certain that with ZERO native haste and JUST the 4pc bonus (and DP), you're going to meet and exceed 100% uptime? I just...don't see how. With 20k+ haste, sure, of course. With zero? I need to see some actual math/testing.

    Edit - saw your post above, and I can't find flaws with the math on that. Obviously it's stochastic, but it's also heavily favored against haste, so ANY haste values would only further push us to/above 100%. I just...it just....doesn't make sense.
    Actually, there is a flaw in it, just noticed it, working on correcting it now. Used a template I made when I was tired after being up for 24 hours straigth. The fixed version should probably have about 90% uptime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Note that my comment stated that without 4pt16, we won't see 100% uptime without BIS (IE high haste off-set) gear.
    Well, you wont see 100% uptime even in BiS gear if you dont have the 4p.


    Edit: okay so fixed my model, 84% uptime at 0% haste and low GC procs. For reference, if we assume the average amount of GC procs (disregarding dodge/parry procs), that becomes 86% uptime. So around 80-90% ish with 0% haste and DP when you consider luck/badluck. Pushing that to 100% does not require that much haste though.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-06-26 at 01:38 PM.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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