1. #2721
    Haste doesn't really start losing value until 50% (around 22k iirc). This is, of course, without the 10% raid buff since it's attack speed and not pure haste.

    Saying that, more mastery and stam is going to be entirely survivability based. If you feel you need that then sure, pile on some stam, otherwise I'd prefer to stick with haste and the other benefits it grants.

  2. #2722
    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    just out of curiousity. im currently on 15.5k haste buffed. i feel its a sweet number to sit at if watching sotr uptime. if i found a sweet spot,can i stay there and get more mastery/stam or will that be worse then getting more haste?
    It all depends what you need, if you're having issues with survivability from spike damage through ShotR, then Stamina would probably be the better option.
    Haste will probably be better than Mastery though, but it depends what you want, more Haste will be more DPS, Heals and Absorbs.

  3. #2723
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    It all depends what you need, if you're having issues with survivability from spike damage through ShotR, then Stamina would probably be the better option.
    Haste will probably be better than Mastery though, but it depends what you want, more Haste will be more DPS, Heals and Absorbs.
    I'd say that extra mastery will more likely help more with survival than extra stamina.

  4. #2724
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    I'd say that extra mastery will more likely help more with survival than extra stamina.
    On most fights I would second that. Mastery is very underrated and stamina very overrated.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-07-01 at 05:41 AM.
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  5. #2725
    Yup, if you think you've found a sweet spot with haste dump into more mastery/stam for survivability, otherwise crit/str if you want dps.

    However I'd still try to aim for the 50% mark tbh, going from 50% haste to 25% (roughly 15k haste) for a few ra-den attempts just made a whole world of difference rotation-wise, for those few brief attempts the rotation just felt so slow compared to what I was used to.

  6. #2726
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDreads View Post
    Yup, if you think you've found a sweet spot with haste dump into more mastery/stam for survivability, otherwise crit/str if you want dps.

    However I'd still try to aim for the 50% mark tbh, going from 50% haste to 25% (roughly 15k haste) for a few ra-den attempts just made a whole world of difference rotation-wise, for those few brief attempts the rotation just felt so slow compared to what I was used to.
    we're semi casual on 3/13 heroic so ra-den wont happen this tier we are aiming bit higher next tier, thats why im thinking that if i had a sweet spot i should go for more mastery/stam to eeaze things up during progress of next tier

  7. #2727
    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    we're semi casual on 3/13 heroic so ra-den wont happen this tier we are aiming bit higher next tier, thats why im thinking that if i had a sweet spot i should go for more mastery/stam to eeaze things up during progress of next tier
    I still think that haste is your best option hands down. The question between going crit, mastery or stamina after 50% haste is a harder one, but going for 50% haste first is kinda no-brainer in my opinion. Mastery stacking can be useful on some fights but that is the exception rather than the rule.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  8. #2728
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I still think that haste is your best option hands down. The question between going crit, mastery or stamina after 50% haste is a harder one, but going for 50% haste first is kinda no-brainer in my opinion. Mastery stacking can be useful on some fights but that is the exception rather than the rule.
    Well while mastery stacking isn't too obvious yet, as soon as we get to 50% haste, the more mastery we get, the stronger it gets. (inb4 primodius with sotr reducing physical dmg by 100%)
    In the same way the avoidance stats become stronger the more we get of them (which is why it might be fun to see max avoidance % in BIS gear by the end of this tier) mastery also might become a lot more useful now.
    Plus unlike stamina it actually does reduce damage, which basically brings it down to "more dps" vs "more dmg mitigation" which makes me feel like we're going to initially see mastery being predominant and possibly later in the tier some tanks switching for crit.
    (here comes QQ of "tanks shouldn't be doing dmg, go back to 2 button no veng rotations")

  9. #2729
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Well while mastery stacking isn't too obvious yet, as soon as we get to 50% haste, the more mastery we get, the stronger it gets. (inb4 primodius with sotr reducing physical dmg by 100%)
    Hmmm, on this note, I must admit that I've never looked at my ShotR % redux on that boss when I got mastery buffs. I usually just cursed that I didn't get haste/crit/anything else. Does Mastery not have diminishing returns for us? I never really thought about it, since (like we are discussing) I was shooting for 21250 before putting stock in Mastery. I'd imagine that it doesn't, since that'd be very counterintuitive, but it certainly could/would cause some verrry weird things to happen in BiS t16.

    In the same way the avoidance stats become stronger the more we get of them (which is why it might be fun to see max avoidance % in BIS gear by the end of this tier) mastery also might become a lot more useful now.
    Plus unlike stamina it actually does reduce damage, which basically brings it down to "more dps" vs "more dmg mitigation" which makes me feel like we're going to initially see mastery being predominant and possibly later in the tier some tanks switching for crit.
    (here comes QQ of "tanks shouldn't be doing dmg, go back to 2 button no veng rotations")
    Yeah, I think we will see a "Mastery movement" once 21250 is attainable, which should be around starting/mid t16 HCs. I guess the question remains are we going to see predominantly Physical nukes, or more magic based damage? I was initially thinking that it'd be higher magic, to help reign in some of the "pala QQ" that we have this tier, but so far it seems pretty even. Personally, I hope they NEVER do another Lei Shi type fight (ever! god that fight sucked in so many ways), but if so, we'd obviously be better off with Stam. I guess we have to wait and see.

    And luckily, most of the folks in this thread are smart enough to not bring that terrible "tanks should be meatshields only!" crap up, but I am seeing it appear more often in the main pala forums. Ugh, bad information makes my head hurt.
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  10. #2730
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Yeah, I think we will see a "Mastery movement" once 21250 is attainable, which should be around starting/mid t16 HCs.
    It is attainable already. You just need to be close to weaing fully upgraded best-in-slot heroic tf gear.
    Lethora, 100 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
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  11. #2731
    SotR caps at 80% but as far as I know mastery doesn't diminish.

  12. #2732
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    It is attainable already. You just need to be close to weaing fully upgraded best-in-slot heroic tf gear.
    Going through the items, if I went for only 2pT15 (helm/shoulder, with ret tier chest, primo gloves/durumu pants) and stacked haste in everything unbuffed it'd be around 20,694. With haste pot it's 21,444. Still about 1,056 away from the 50% haste cap. Which is about 47.65% Still rather close.

    Remember, it's 450 haste = 1%, which is 22,500 for 50%.



  13. #2733
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    Going through the items, if I went for only 2pT15 (helm/shoulder, with ret tier chest, primo gloves/durumu pants) and stacked haste in everything unbuffed it'd be around 20,694. With haste pot it's 21,444. Still about 1,056 away from the 50% haste cap. Which is about 47.65% Still rather close.

    Remember, it's 450 haste = 1%, which is 22,500 for 50%.
    What about H TF Tortos shoulders and DA helm instead of tier?

    And I thought it was 21250? So confused...
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
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  14. #2734
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    Going through the items, if I went for only 2pT15 (helm/shoulder, with ret tier chest, primo gloves/durumu pants) and stacked haste in everything unbuffed it'd be around 20,694. With haste pot it's 21,444. Still about 1,056 away from the 50% haste cap. Which is about 47.65% Still rather close.

    Remember, it's 450 haste = 1%, which is 22,500 for 50%.
    Is it not 425 haste for 1%?
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #2735
    ...it is 21250, its 425 haste = 1%. And yes 50% haste is easily achievable this tier, sitting at 542ilvl with haste food/elixir I'm only 71 haste off a perfect 21250, however I till get a 3s CD on CS and a 4s CD on judge, the only two abilities that need the little extra haste are cons and HW (which are sitting at 6.1s CD).

  16. #2736
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    What about H TF Tortos shoulders and DA helm instead of tier?

    And I thought it was 21250? So confused...
    You could go for that I guess, but if it's 21250, then using the 2pT15 along with the Haste elixir is still better imo than using the other two items. Cause honestly, what consumables are you using... stamina flask? Personally, I've been using Haste/Armor elixirs for everything and will probably continue to do so unless I DESPERATELY need that extra 27k health?

    edit: I know for sure I corrected someone to 425 earlier in the thread. Might have had a brainfart this morning! My bad.



  17. #2737
    I'm still missing a few pieces to make it doable (and still using 2pc as well, just 'cause), so it doesn't really affect me. The joys of 10m loot, where TF isn't real, and conq tokens don't exist.

    Honestly, I usually use a STR flask or the 500 stats "flask" tbh.
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    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
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  18. #2738
    Do you guys tank on any other characters at raid-level? I've played them at 85 (bear, DK, warrior) but not at all this expansion, so my knowledge is limited.

    I was trying to convince my friend to not stack avoidance (for prot paladin) and the argument I used was damage presentation. As part of the argument I showed him my logs, where it'd read something like,

    Horridon hits Trystero for 62411
    Seal of Insight heals Trystero for 34114
    Beacon of Light heals Trystero for 30011

    My point was that avoiding attacks doesn't matter much if you're mitigating them instead - and this was on 25H, the hardest hitting content in the game. For us it should be rare to take a full swing, what with SotR, SS, and external/internal CDs, and from just random heals we'll be back to full in no time.

    Anyway, it got me looking into other classes, and what I saw was that they were often taking big damage. I looked at a warrior, whose game I respect, and I saw him taking 250-300k melee swings constantly. The same for a DK. Haven't looked at druids or monks yet.

    Here's my question:

    Is this a L2P issue or are paladins just built to take considerably smoother damage than other classes? As I don't play any of these classes at raid-level, I don't know if the problem is that my fellow tanks are doing a poor job mitigating damage or if their classes don't allow them the same level of mitigation which we have -in which case, their class must offer them some tools to compensate. The one I can think of straight away is a DK's bloated health pool. Are these tools enough, or is SotR actually OP?

  19. #2739
    A well played paladin is markedly smoother than pretty much anything else. ShotR IS that good, and only helped by haste and SS/SOI. Add in debuff clearing, and it's even more apparent.

    I tank on my DK for alt raid, and am pretty capable on him. He's only ~515ish (we raid maybe once a month on alts) but I can say that it is FAR more spiky most of the time. Things like Talon Rake/Trip Punc hit for full damage every time (as in, not mitigated 50% off the top). If I don't have a meaty shield to chew through, it's a pretty massive hit. Unlike the paladin, there is no short term massive redux to put up, outside of a shield. You can game the shields (and time them intelligently) but it's nothing like a ShotR+SS mitigated hit.

    DK's have a decent personal toolkit, with VB/sac, pact, and tap. Worms are meh, as they never seem to happen when needed, and border on 90%+ overheal. No raid cooldown at all minus a VERY gimp AMZ (at the cost of Purg!), unless you cound AotD for add stuffs. They're also stellar for cheesing debuffs with AMS, but Paladin's win that war. They're also very good at tank swaps, with a built up shield on taunt, I have ~1.6mil HP. What sucks, is that our mastery is penalized by the MS effects, so things like Durumu which reduces healing also reduce our shield size

    I've also got my monk, druid and warrior at cap and play them in 5mans and stuff, but CBA to gear them all up. Though, honestly, I may just focus on the monk going forward, as they playstyle is amazing, they feel very "paladin-ish" in terms of "rotation", stat priority, self/raid buffing and overall utility. They're the only class atm that really gives a paladin a good run in terms of "OP tank".

    Can't really comment on warrior/druid; they've got decent AM, but I don't really like the way rage-tanks play this expansion. Since that's a personal feeling and anecdotal, I won't pass it off as a thing, just throwing it out there.
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    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  20. #2740
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    They're also stellar for cheesing debuffs with AMS, but Paladin's win that war.
    Except for Animus HC - AMS is easily the best reset here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    What sucks, is that our mastery is penalized by the MS effects, so things like Durumu which reduces healing also reduce our shield size
    Not true. Blood Shield is not affected by healing taken buffs or debuffs (except for Scent of Blood)
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