1. #2821
    Old God MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    Again, maybe I am doing something very wrong in my approach, feel free to give your insight, I'm eager to improve.
    You're going on the assumption that you're trading equal points of one for equal points of the other. If you're trading like 1% expertise for maybe 20 haste then it's obviously not worth it but if in your gear setup you could gain like 200 haste for maybe 100 expertise, maybe it's worth it. I had a situation in my gear the other day where I could drop 0.6% expertise and gain 0.3% haste. It's not always an equal trade and you've gota take that into account (can't remember actual stat numbers, only LFR though so the gear don't matter! Soon to be replaced)

    Even then there's a certain amount of personal preference, looking at some of the haste numbers people appear to have nowadays, they're approaching 50% which if I remember from ages ago was seen as some kinda point where it starts to lose value? I'm not 100% sure. Either way, only you can choose what you want and if your stats are that high anyway then the % of points that you're changing/losing is lower than otherwise so will have a smaller difference. Unless it involves some kind of cap, but if you weren't at or going to reach that anyway then it's just a curve rather than a complete flattening/drop off.

  2. #2822
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Well it does somehow reduce reliability if what you're aiming for is to have 2 ShoR back to back and on fights like Ra-dan you want those reliably and often.
    Judgment is 100% hit anyway (with 7.5% hit), if you need 2 back to back SotRs, just make sure you have 5 HoPo and judgment available, that is 100% guaranteed back to back SotR.


    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    If you can bank, yes. But that means the window between 2 "needed" SotR is long enough and you are reducing SotR uptime on autoattacks.
    Maybe I am really talking about some major picture I don't understand, but even if the probability of missing a SotR for a triple puncture/snapping bite is one in a million, I won't take the risk to cause a wipe. A matter of opinion and style maybe, call it what you want
    The chance to miss a tripple puncture / snapping bite / hard stare etc is 0 unless you misplay your holy power.

    I feel like you are mixing together banking HoPo and overcapping HoPo. Just because you wait a bit until using your SotR (i.e. not always using it at 3 HoPo) does not mean you can not use SotR for white hits aswell.

    If I know there is a spell that I need to have SotR for (puncture, talon rake etc), then of course I make sure to have 3 HoPo ready for that, preferably 6 HoPo for a back to back SotR. If I dont need it, then I just use SotR on 3 stacks.

    I have been running below expertise cap since 5.0 and I have never had a death because of it, never even a sligthest problem. Only once since 5.0 have I actually been negatively effected by a parry enough for me to actually notice me, that was one time when I played badly with my HoPo causing me to only have 2 HoPo after getting a parry, which forced me to use a smaller CD instead. Did not die, just had to 'waste' a CD. After that I started using my HoPo good since before that I was just randomly using it at 3 all the time. Never had a problem since.

    Also, while you say you would never risk that one in a million death. You do realise that going expertise is not only gain? You get slower SS ticks and SoI heals. How do you know that the points you put in expertise instead of haste, wont mean that a SS tick or SoI heal comes 0.01 seconds to late because you did not have enough haste. That extra haste actually saves your life too. Now not saying this is usual, but it needs to taken into consideration.

    While it is of course a matter of taste, and I understand the people that go for hardcap expertise, if I do not go for expertise hard cap over haste, I gain more dps, hps, aps and HoPo. I min-max my character more and get a bigger yield and a higher potential with my character from it. All it takes from me is just planning ahead knowing that a CS could get parried so if I got 3 HoPo and there is 6 seconds left to a tripple puncture, I probably should not use SotR just yet because I could get parried on a CS during the next cycle
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #2823
    I see both your points. I guess it just feels wrong to me not to hardcap even if arguments can be made it's not that vital, just different
    For me, reducing my expertise cap would only gain me mastery, not haste. But I have been amazingly lucky with coins.

    Didn't remember about the judgment thing, so there's that. I feel dumb forgetting some obvious things I used to know ^^

    Thanks for the food for thought

  4. #2824
    Brewmaster rawhammer's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Nillo;21680888]Why would you stand in beams with 24 other people to handle them °_°

    vengence
    Keeping it url since 1864.

  5. #2825
    [QUOTE=rawhammer;21682089]
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Why would you stand in beams with 24 other people to handle them °_°

    vengence
    On 25H you won't notice it, since you're going to be taking considerably more damage from the boss.



  6. #2826
    TBH the only fight where i felt it was worth hard capping exp was dark animus where i wanted to have a guarantee that every single one of my HoP generators will result in a SotR.
    Haven't seen any other fight that was dangerous enough

  7. #2827
    on higher gear levels there's no really haste-expertise trade. I have haste on most of my gear, on any other piece one of the stats is reforged into haste. and still i can hard cap expertise and have extra hit, which i can't get rid of. now it becomes expertise-mastery trade, which i don't really care about.

    One's man terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

  8. #2828
    Quote Originally Posted by zloitima View Post
    on higher gear levels there's no really haste-expertise trade. I have haste on most of my gear, on any other piece one of the stats is reforged into haste. and still i can hard cap expertise and have extra hit, which i can't get rid of. now it becomes expertise-mastery trade, which i don't really care about.
    Also noticed that, esp with the legendary cloak.

  9. #2829
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    Guys, I am wondering something (Hopefully I am in the right thread, but I guess so).

    The trend is to achieve 90+% uptime on sacred shield and ~60ish+% uptime on shotr (well, it's not a trend, it's what you are supposed to do as a protadin). I think I can manage the Sacred shield uptime (with the help of Thecks Weak aura for that), but I'm still a bit lackluster with the Shotr uptime. I'll do my best, but I usually end up around 40% uptime, which is definitely ... "open for improvement". Since I know the theory and I have the gear (527, around 15k haste, hit/exp capped, although I might switch to hit->haste->exp again), I figured I must be pressing the wrong buttons. but... I guess it's not that I don't do what I'm supposed to do because I don't know any better, it might be because I have a screwed up interface, and especially, key bindings and where-the-hell-is-the-shit-placed-on-the-screen.

    http://i.imm.io/1bA4j.png

    soo... this is the bottom center of my screen. my chat is left of that, my raidframe is right of that and my debuff/buff trackers as well as theck's sacred shield weak aura is more or less above that. the casting bars are over their respective frames. in general I like it, because it is all pretty compact at the bottom, which leaves the room around my character free so I see what is going on in the fight.

    you can see the key bindings, at least at the upper row. I already have switched it a little bit... my HoW is now at the Middle mouse ("B3"), my Sacred Shield is at "^", and my lvl 90 talent is at "G". my sprint (lvl 15 talent) is a modifier at "B5" (currently pressed, w/o modifier it is word of glory there). The macro for hammer of wrath is a mouseover macro, mostly done for the spirits at council, so I need a keybind for that - and I can't use mousebuttons for that. the macros for the normal attacks are just macros who add a "/startattack" to ensure I'm always attacking.

    so the question is... how are you having your keys bound? do you have any tips what I could do better? maybe even rearranging the bars to somewhere else? I really have the feeling I could improve it to help me perform better, but I don't know where and how...
    The problem I have is... I cant use much of the buttons. I need Q and E for strafing (I am just used to it, I often tried to use those additionally, but... no, this habit won't go away). I need R for whisper replies. I need C for my charscreen and V for my nameplates, as well as X to sit down (although X is a very hard button to press for me anyways. B, H and 7+ are too far away, Z is already a compromize, because I don't press the hammer too often. So I'm pretty much limited to 1-6, TFGZY^ for buttons + my three mouse buttons (middle and two sides).

    (N0 on the very bottom right is my inspect button on Num0)

    Open for any tips. Or just show me what how you have organized your buttons, and I'll try to get some inspiration from it.
    -xeb

  10. #2830
    Quote Originally Posted by zloitima View Post
    on higher gear levels there's no really haste-expertise trade. I have haste on most of my gear, on any other piece one of the stats is reforged into haste. and still i can hard cap expertise and have extra hit, which i can't get rid of. now it becomes expertise-mastery trade, which i don't really care about.
    Yeah, this is the big part of why I sit at 15%; there's really no other haste to gain, and I don't value mastery above Exp til I'm at 15%, so it becomes a non-issue once the ilvl inflates. Forese it being even moreso next tier.

    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    you can see the key bindings, at least at the upper row. I already have switched it a little bit... my HoW is now at the Middle mouse ("B3"), my Sacred Shield is at "^", and my lvl 90 talent is at "G". my sprint (lvl 15 talent) is a modifier at "B5" (currently pressed, w/o modifier it is word of glory there). The macro for hammer of wrath is a mouseover macro, mostly done for the spirits at council, so I need a keybind for that - and I can't use mousebuttons for that. the macros for the normal attacks are just macros who add a "/startattack" to ensure I'm always attacking.

    so the question is... how are you having your keys bound? do you have any tips what I could do better? maybe even rearranging the bars to somewhere else? I really have the feeling I could improve it to help me perform better, but I don't know where and how...
    The problem I have is... I cant use much of the buttons. I need Q and E for strafing (I am just used to it, I often tried to use those additionally, but... no, this habit won't go away). I need R for whisper replies. I need C for my charscreen and V for my nameplates, as well as X to sit down (although X is a very hard button to press for me anyways. B, H and 7+ are too far away, Z is already a compromize, because I don't press the hammer too often. So I'm pretty much limited to 1-6, TFGZY^ for buttons + my three mouse buttons (middle and two sides).

    (N0 on the very bottom right is my inspect button on Num0)

    Open for any tips. Or just show me what how you have organized your buttons, and I'll try to get some inspiration from it.
    -xeb
    Note that I don't think anyone will see massive improvements in uptimes/APM from a UI overhaul, especially not at first (given that changing keybinds means relearning muscle memory). You may get better responses from the UI thread, but I'll try and chime in.

    I use WASD for movement still (never liked ESDF) so most of my keys are bound to no further "east" than 5/t/g/b. Also use a Naga, so I have a lot bound on there.

    Bar1
    1 - Judge
    2 - CS
    3 - HotR
    4 - ShotR
    5 - HoW
    S1 - Varies (focus J, or HA if I'm using it)
    S2 - Cons
    S3 - AD
    S4 - GoAK
    S5 - FoL
    V - DivProt
    Bar2
    + - Mount
    ` - FoJ/HoJ
    SZ - Holy Wrath
    Z - Taunt
    C - Blind
    X - Wings
    R - Rebuke
    F - Freedom
    B - Bubble/cancelaura
    G - EMFH
    Y - LoH
    Bar3
    Mouse4 - AS
    Mouse5 - t90
    Mouse6 - Devo
    MW up - SS
    MW down - WOG

    Those 3 are stacked on each other in the bottom/middle of my screen with frames around each side (with focus, target/targettarget, etc) with castbars above and buffs/debuffs below. It gives nice symmetry (IMO) and keept things ordered and compact. I know it's largely personal preference, but your stuff is scattered all over in that screenshot.

    I have another bar thats at low opacity on the right, that I have things bound to on the mouse: BoP, Salv, Engi boots/cape, Speed of Light, HoPur, Turn Evil, and things like Battle Horn, Dagger, Rod of Ambershaping, and other engi stuff/toys. They're all on mouse binds 6-12/extra buttons, since theyre situational.

    Also bound Extra Action Button to Middle click.

    Just prioritize your binds (like, do you really need an inspect button?) and don't be afraid to change your "game" binds to favor your "spell" binds. Since B is bubble for me, Shift-B is backpack/bags. Since C is Blind, Shift-C is now character pane. R is Rebuke, so Shift-R is Whisper. Mousewheels are used for SS/WOG, so I use Shift-MW for camera changes, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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  11. #2831
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Yeah, this is the big part of why I sit at 15%; there's really no other haste to gain, and I don't value mastery above Exp til I'm at 15%, so it becomes a non-issue once the ilvl inflates. Forese it being even moreso next tier.
    Well again, nobody is advocating not to go for 15 exp. The only grey area is wether to go haste>15 exp or 15 exp > haste, if you can reach 15 exp without costing you any haste, well then it is a no-brainer.

    And yes, this is becoming a non-issue anymore, this was much larger issue in T14, and now in T16 it is most likely gonna be non-existant. I expect the threads popping up in T16 gonna be about mastery vs stam vs avoidance vs crit.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #2832
    I bound my ShotR on Naga-like Logitech, button 4. also Cons on mouse side too
    1-AS
    2-CS
    3-J
    4-HoR
    5-Holy Wrath
    6-Lvl 90

    What I found helpful is setting up OmniCC, so that it will show numbers for cooldowns less than 1 sec. On default it's 2 sec I believe.

    One's man terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

  13. #2833
    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    -snip-
    Like Nairobi I use WASD for movement and use a G600 so I have a few extra buttons on my mouse. (Convinced my co-tank to get one too!)
    I don't think my keybinds are optimal, but I try to keep them all within easy reach and don't go past 5 for any important binds. Important ones below.

    1 - Taunt
    2 - Judgement
    3 - Consecrate
    4 - Speed of Light
    5 - Bubble
    Shift 5 - Divine Protection
    E - Avenger's Shield
    R - Crusader Strike
    F - Shield of the Righteous
    Q - T90 talent
    T - Ardent Defender
    V- GoAK
    Ctrl Q - Devo Aura
    X (I should really change this) - HW
    Shift-X - HoW
    Mouse 4 - SS
    Scroll Wheel - AW + HA (when applicable) macro
    Mouse 3 - LoH
    Mouse 5 - Ironbark (Symbiosis)

    Shift/Ctrl Spacebar - Ground/Flying mount
    Shift 1-5 - Buffs + Hands
    ~ - Extra Action Button
    Mouse 6 - Macro button (ex. Heroic Tortos crystal macro)

    I track all my cooldowns right below my character using TellMeWhen and have a Weakaura set up to show me time remaining on SS and ShoR.
    Last edited by pld; 2013-07-08 at 03:02 PM.

  14. #2834
    Just going to say this. If a tank is more concerned with DPS and has a significantly lower survivability percent than most of his raid party he may need to reconsider his role. Not going to point fingers but I'm sick of seeing certain people spreading bad advice backed up by lies and exaggerations.

    Prot need to get back to their grass roots. We should be about making sure the raid doesn't take unnecessary damage and this includes us.

    "Leet" discussions should be separated from mainstream advice threads.

  15. #2835
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    Just going to say this. If a tank is more concerned with DPS and has a significantly lower survivability percent than most of his raid party he may need to reconsider his role. Not going to point fingers but I'm sick of seeing certain people spreading bad advice backed up by lies and exaggerations.

    Prot need to get back to their grass roots. We should be about making sure the raid doesn't take unnecessary damage and this includes us.

    "Leet" discussions should be separated from mainstream advice threads.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  16. #2836
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    Just going to say this. If a tank is more concerned with DPS and has a significantly lower survivability percent than most of his raid party he may need to reconsider his role. Not going to point fingers but I'm sick of seeing certain people spreading bad advice backed up by lies and exaggerations.

    Prot need to get back to their grass roots. We should be about making sure the raid doesn't take unnecessary damage and this includes us.

    "Leet" discussions should be separated from mainstream advice threads.
    To be honest, I haven't played prot prior to MoP, but tanking has evolved since previous expansions. We're no longer just here to soak damage and afk after building up some threat. Our damage is actually important now and we provide utility apart from being a meat shield.

    I agree that someone who sacrifices their own survivability for a chance at getting a WoL ranking is detrimental to their raid, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for us to be considerate of our DPS as well. Not sure which topics of discussion you're referring to, but the general consensus in this thread appears to be focused on helping our raid team.

  17. #2837
    Judging by his post history it looks to me like he was trying to respond to a post from like 2 and a half months ago >_>
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  18. #2838
    I apologize if I'm not totally relevant to the current topic of this thread. I just want to advise that some of the people providing advice may not be the most credible sources and actually are subject to the "scumbag tanking" mentality as described.

  19. #2839
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    I apologize if I'm not totally relevant to the current topic of this thread. I just want to advise that some of the people providing advice may not be the most credible sources and actually are subject to the "scumbag tanking" mentality as described.
    If by "scumbag tanking" you're referring to /sit-tanking and other DPS/Vengeance-oriented topics, the majority of the discussion I've seen about that are between people who have already cleared the content and are just looking for better numbers to spice up their farm nights.

    I first came into this thread a few months ago with no background in tanking and very limited knowledge, but the active posters have been extremely helpful in answering my questions and helping me improve my performance. This is probably the most helpful and knowledgable places for prot paladins I've found since I picked up tanking.

  20. #2840
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    I apologize if I'm not totally relevant to the current topic of this thread. I just want to advise that some of the people providing advice may not be the most credible sources and actually are subject to the "scumbag tanking" mentality as described.
    And by not stating who or what you are referring to specifically noone has any idea what you're on about.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    If by "scumbag tanking" you're referring to /sit-tanking and other DPS/Vengeance-oriented topics, the majority of the discussion I've seen about that are between people who have already cleared the content and are just looking for better numbers to spice up their farm nights.
    Sit tanking if done right is actually more than worth it in the long run not just dps wise but also due to the vengeance scaling of defensive abilities.
    Same as with many other forms in the art of vengeance cheesing. Eventually one has to find a balance between doing damage and taking damage that works best.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

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