1. #301
    The Patient chris1554's Avatar
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    I feel like the 2% spell damage reduction Meta gem is much stronger then the 2% armor at the moment, you gain what 1000 armor? Thoughts?
    Last edited by chris1554; 2012-10-02 at 09:33 PM.
    Tankadin in Aurora. 6/6HC MSV 6/6HC HOF 3/4HC Terrace 3 days a week (25).

  2. #302
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris1554 View Post
    I feel like the 2% spell damage reduction Meta gem is much stronger then the 2% armor at the moment, you gain what 1000 armor? Thoughts?
    Quite possible. Armour is worth 4 times as much as any stat we have though. Dependent on spell damage really because it was the same case in Cata but we didn't choose the spell damage one even though we were even less equipped than now to deal with spell damage. It may be good for some fights but we'll just have to wait and see but I'm somewhat doubtful, especially seeing as we get a higher DP uptime due to Unbreakable Spirit.

  3. #303
    "One of our goals with our active mitigation tanking model is that you have opportunities to trade significant survivability for more damage when maximum survivability isn’t required. For example, a Warrior could opt to use their rage for Heroic Strike instead of Shield Block or Shield Barrier. This damage gain is intended to be relatively small, and not worth the loss in survivability when actively tanking.

    However, for Protection Paladins, this trade-off was much too lucrative. For maximum survivability, Protection Paladins are intended to use Seal of Insight, since it provides a buff to their self-healing, and also provides a significant self-heal on their melee in combination with Vengeance. Unfortunately, when using Seal of Insight, their damage was too low compared to the other tanks. When using Seal of Truth, their damage was too high. So, we've increased Protection Paladin damage in general to compensate for Seal of Insights relatively low output, while simultaneously reducing the damage of Seal of Truth to bring it into line.

    Holy Wrath now deals 100% more damage.
    Avenger's Shield now deals 50% more damage.
    Seal of Truth and Censure now deal 80% less damage for Protection Paladins only."


    Blizzard intents for Seal of Insight to be used for maximum survival? Personally... I have never used Seal of Insight, Because it heals for so little even with Vengeance, and 5% extra healing is not a lot anyhow.. would the SoT/Censure nerf not just push us towards using Seal of the Righteous as our base seal? The other buffs to Holy Wrath and Avengers Shield are always nice and well received though.
    Last edited by RexalLB; 2012-10-03 at 02:05 AM.

  4. #304
    I dunno, I'm sure I've seen SoI heal for over 15k in 5mans, and it appears to proc off HotR splash too (confirmation required though). Would heal for considerably more with high vengeance levels (i.e. over 50k). Using SoI would make certain glyphs rather more attractive too...
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  5. #305
    The 100% buff to holy wrath makes the glyph of final wrath more attractive. According to Theck's sims, it was already out 3rd best DPS glyph (after arbablester shield and focussed shield).

    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...718672#p718672

    I think the guide needs amending - the dps increase is not "tiny". Well, in gearing we do deal with small numbers but relatively speaking, I would not say it's a useless glyph. At least, I'm using it as it's a decent glyph for dps and the alternatives for the third slot (after arbalester shield and divine protection) are not compelling for me.

  6. #306
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by econ21 View Post
    I think the guide needs amending - the dps increase is not "tiny". Well, in gearing we do deal with small numbers but relatively speaking, I would not say it's a useless glyph. At least, I'm using it as it's a decent glyph for dps and the alternatives for the third slot (after arbalester shield and divine protection) are not compelling for me.
    It will be amended. The hotfix was only rolled out this morning and I was in a lecture so *shrug* no sooner chance. But prior to this even Theck said Final Wrath was useless, but I will obviously roll and change with the hotfixes. Will do it right now.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    But prior to this even Theck said Final Wrath was useless...
    You may be thinking of another glyph - we have so many wraths and righteous whatnots. This is what he wrote about the glyph in his guide in August:

    Quote Originally Posted by Theckhd
    Glyph of Final Wrath - 50% extra Holy Wrath damage in execute range. This is actually a reasonably large DPS increase, on the order of ~2% or so (during execute, ~0.4% overall) at L90. Probably about the same at L85.
    Damage during the execute phase can often be particularly important, as it shortens enrage periods and often synchronises with heroism/bloodlust.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    I dunno, I'm sure I've seen SoI heal for over 15k in 5mans, and it appears to proc off HotR splash too (confirmation required though). Would heal for considerably more with high vengeance levels (i.e. over 50k). Using SoI would make certain glyphs rather more attractive too...
    yeah, SoI procs off HotR splash. was fun to survive 5 mobs on me as ret using SoI.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  9. #309
    If we are supposed to use Seal of Insight now, glyph of battle healing is worth considering. Someone reported topping healing meters for a 5 man with it, so it may have a bigger impact than the typical glyph.

  10. #310
    Brewmaster rawhammer's Avatar
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    changes changes changes....

    So with the recent tank changes im now thinking of using SoI as default seal and taking the following glyphs: Alabaster / Final Wrath / Battle Healer.

    Stat priority: hit to 7.5% > Mastery > exp to 7.5% > haste = parry > dodge

    Talents: HA and LH for extra cd loveliness.

    Will be raiding for first time tonight and will report back results. Anyone care to critique?

  11. #311
    Mechagnome ayashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris1554 View Post
    I feel like the 2% spell damage reduction Meta gem is much stronger then the 2% armor at the moment, you gain what 1000 armor? Thoughts?
    We take more physical damage than magical overall, so even if the armor meta lowers physical damage less than the spell damage reduction does to magical damage, it still is a bigger reduction of damage taken overall. The reason why bosses deal little magical damage is that tanks aren't balanced. See Yorsahj as a fine exemple : huge overall magical damage ? Blood DK tanks were pretty much mandatory

    That obviously leaves the magical spike issue, but even then the magical spell is hardly deadly on it's own. It's the combo melee hit + magic skill + melee hit that's deadly. And we have cooldowns to take care of those.

    Overall, yes magic meta can be useful but unless you are willing to go around with two helms, one with magic and one with armor meta, then you'll get more use out of the armor meta in the long run.

    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    changes changes changes....

    So with the recent tank changes im now thinking of using SoI as default seal and taking the following glyphs: Alabaster / Final Wrath / Battle Healer.

    Stat priority: hit to 7.5% > Mastery > exp to 7.5% > haste = parry > dodge

    Talents: HA and LH for extra cd loveliness.

    Will be raiding for first time tonight and will report back results. Anyone care to critique?
    I could see myself use your glyphs and swap final warth for any other needed ( divine protection and Holy wrath come to mind)

    No point in exp soft cap. It doesn't consern us tanks anymore. At all. If exp is better than haste then stack it up to hardcap (15%) as it'll prety much keeps the same value all the way up there.

    Theck's last post on damage smoothing pretty much nails the coffin over the issue. Set #8 (heavy mastery with hit cap and hard exp cap) is pretty much the best hands down.
    With set #7(trading exp for haste) arguably useful, once you start to overgear the content or for other DPS issues ( ...enrage).
    (I think that past the point where you can trade #7 survivability for moar dps you are pretty much at the point were it doesn't matter anymore, just put pure DPS gear on )
    Last edited by ayashi; 2012-10-05 at 01:36 PM.

  12. #312

  13. #313
    Is there any logic to having haste so low on your priorities while all theory crafting suggests that haste is on-par if not even better than mastery for hardcore raiding? It just seems like you are not willing to adapt and look at the facts. The fact that you even have on your guide an "Avoidance stat priority" seems to me quite odd. Its basically the most useless gearing right now. And as stated before, you do not even have a Haste Stat Priority.

    Also why are you not even prioritising Glyph of Battle Healer even as a "good" glyph, it is just insane.

    In my opinion Long Arm of the Law is far better option than the pursuit of justice on most fights as very few fights require consistant moving and the LAotL allows me to move alot faster when I actually need to move. 45% speed vs 15-30% speed depending on stacks is a clear choice for me.

    I really disagree with your use of lights prism, for me that just seems incredibly stupid. Lights Hammer just works so much better for raiding and dungeons. The spell is just so much more versitile and useful.

    All in all, your guide as a nice structure, but it is really really outdated and needs to be overlooked before it misguides fresh protection paladins. You should try to look at paladins with a fresh eye instead of being to conservative.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2012-10-07 at 01:51 PM.

  14. #314
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    All in all, your guide as a nice structure, but it is really really outdated and needs to be overlooked before it misguides fresh protection paladins. You should try to look at paladins with a fresh eye instead of being to conservative.
    I'm going off the information provided to me as I am currently not able to play. Someone says to me "Do this" so I then ask further about it and get no reply, it is somewhat hard to amend things when that sort of situation is a constant thing. As stated time and time again, I am more than happy to adapt it and I know the maths says haste is like that, but in practice people are sticking with mastery so I will/am reading Thecks info and will go off it but if you read the past 2 pages of this thread its "y u do this, do haste" with very little extra info added to it, it's somewhat hard to update this very quickly considering I'm currently juggling lectures ad my first few weeks at university.

  15. #315
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    About to do a bunch of updates once I pull my stuff out of the washing machine - I'll add in the haste build, shorten the avoidance section and add an extra bit about Lights Hammer. Reason being that I have to do some larger updating anyway because the expertise hardcap is the way to go now as well by the looks of things. Will also add a paragraph about seals, considering that SoI is now a very used (possibly more so than truth? Need clarification from someone who is doing so) ability, and therefore Glyph of the Battle Healer is great.

  16. #316
    Brewmaster rawhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    About to do a bunch of updates once I pull my stuff out of the washing machine - I'll add in the haste build, shorten the avoidance section and add an extra bit about Lights Hammer. Reason being that I have to do some larger updating anyway because the expertise hardcap is the way to go now as well by the looks of things. Will also add a paragraph about seals, considering that SoI is now a very used (possibly more so than truth? Need clarification from someone who is doing so) ability, and therefore Glyph of the Battle Healer is great.
    For progression raiding SoI and Battle Healer Glyph is the go to set up (with Light's Hammer) - helps the raid healing no end, and with minimal loss to tank dps compared to the heavily nerfed SoT. My experience with 4/16 bosses down last reset.
    Keeping it real since 1864.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    About to do a bunch of updates once I pull my stuff out of the washing machine - I'll add in the haste build, shorten the avoidance section and add an extra bit about Lights Hammer. Reason being that I have to do some larger updating anyway because the expertise hardcap is the way to go now as well by the looks of things. Will also add a paragraph about seals, considering that SoI is now a very used (possibly more so than truth? Need clarification from someone who is doing so) ability, and therefore Glyph of the Battle Healer is great.
    Basically with the nerfs to SoT its not even a question anymore. If they didn't nerf it was more of a fight to fight basis. Now with the nerfs you are basically trading a minor damage seal vs a huge healing seal.

  18. #318
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Thanks for the clarification you 2 About to do the updates now, had to educate an Australian of all people, in beer adverts. Due to that minor inconvenience, my washing was delayed but I'm now done so I'll go edit.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    About to do a bunch of updates once I pull my stuff out of the washing machine - I'll add in the haste build, shorten the avoidance section and add an extra bit about Lights Hammer. Reason being that I have to do some larger updating anyway because the expertise hardcap is the way to go now as well by the looks of things. Will also add a paragraph about seals, considering that SoI is now a very used (possibly more so than truth? Need clarification from someone who is doing so) ability, and therefore Glyph of the Battle Healer is great.
    I think the problem here is that this is becoming less and less of a definitive guide and more and more a copy/paste list of misconceptions, because pally tank gearing methodology has gotten very heterogeneous, and there is no clear-cut correct idea in all circumstances.

    This reality is not conducive to guides as we know it, because the typical WoW forum guide culture is based entirely on lifting information uncritically from sources that are considered definitive (for example, pretty much the entirety of Icy Veins is like that). While that's perfectly fine for playing at a very low level being first introduced to something, there is so much nuance and subtlety to playing at a really high level and the demands placed on you situationally in those scenarios, that I'm just afraid protection paladin is a spec that is not conducive to this kind of treatment anymore.

  20. #320
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by underdogba View Post
    I think the problem here is that this is becoming less and less of a definitive guide and more and more a copy/paste list of misconceptions, because pally tank gearing methodology has gotten very heterogeneous, and there is no clear-cut correct idea in all circumstances.
    Unfortunately, there's not an awful lot we can do about that. By "Edit" what I really mean is delete the whole lot and rewrite it because I can keep my train of thought better. It's a lot more difficult to do this now than it used to be because there isn't a hard and fast rule so to write it as a list of Do's and Don'ts is very difficult because there are a lot of correct answers and methods, so the best that can be done is to present them all and give an idea about which might be good/used in what situations.

    Aside from that, I don't really know what else to do other than to just highlight all the available options. We could just abandon the thread but that seems somewhat counter productive as we'd get lots of little threads here and there. The misinformation is only classed as that because things change and things are going to change, like a lot, so the best I can do is to edit them out and bring the new and correct answer in as soon as I have the time and it becomes apparent.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-10 at 06:05 PM ----------

    Gah I got distracted, will try and update now quickly before food.

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