1. #3441
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    That change was only for Holy specced characters.
    Are you sure?

    Good in that case.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #3442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    That change was only for Holy specced characters.
    You sure? On the notes on the frontpage it's under general paladin rather than just holy, although there are some Holy-only changes.

    But yes our mana gain is 15%/2

  3. #3443
    Well, the official notes from July 29th say "Judgment for Holy Paladins now costs 12% of base mana to cast (up from 5% of base mana)".

    It could have changed since then, but I wouldn't see why they would up the mana cost for prot/ret. I wouldn't panic!

  4. #3444
    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    So we finally got around to doing Primordius tonight in semi-earnest (8/13 25 H) and I don't know what it is but I don't see to have a chance to get transformed. By the time my 2nd Horror is down, the third is about to spawn in like 2.8 seconds and I have to sprint to the boss asap. I try to look for pools while I'm tanking the adds but they're all being gobbled up by DPS. And really there aren't many to take to be frank.

    What do y'all do on this fight as a raid and as prot? Damage also seems pretty damn ridiculous..
    10M here, but we have a Boomkin who's only job for 80% of the fight is to kill Oozes. He does crazy DPS on multi-add fights so he kills oozes for healers and tanks (and slow DPS).

    Primo seems kinda RNG-y, because there are times when there are a lot of oozes towards the middle (where I tank the Horror) for me to kill myself, but other times it's full of purple death. We have our ranged swap to the Horror so I usually just taunt the Horror, smack it a few times and try to find pools to walk over/oozes to kill and then swap back to the Horror. Speed of Light was very helpful for this fight.

    Damage can get a bit high towards the end of the fight, which is why we have our healers get transformed quickly with the Boomkin's help.

  5. #3445
    just wanted to share a thought of mine... anyone else wishes that sanctity of battle will be removed from prot, we get baseline CD of 1.5 again on CS and judge and actually use tanking stats?

    i guess it never ever is gonna happen but yeah :s

  6. #3446
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    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    just wanted to share a thought of mine... anyone else wishes that sanctity of battle will be removed from prot, we get baseline CD of 1.5 again on CS and judge and actually use tanking stats?

    i guess it never ever is gonna happen but yeah :s
    I can't think of anyone who'd want that? Scaling with haste is the best change they've ever made to tanking. You can actually feel you get stronger the better geared you get. And you're in control of your own survival.

    You just need to change your mindset regarding tank stats. Haste is a tank stat now.

    Hopefully and rather likely it'll go the other way and D/P will be removed from gear and instead be merged with 'offensive' stats so that all tanks can scale properly.

  7. #3447
    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    just wanted to share a thought of mine... anyone else wishes that sanctity of battle will be removed from prot, we get baseline CD of 1.5 again on CS and judge and actually use tanking stats?

    i guess it never ever is gonna happen but yeah :s
    I hope this was a joke.... right?? o_O

  8. #3448
    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    just wanted to share a thought of mine... anyone else wishes that sanctity of battle will be removed from prot, we get baseline CD of 1.5 again on CS and judge and actually use tanking stats?

    i guess it never ever is gonna happen but yeah :s
    I think you are on your own with that.

    Although a 1.5 second cooldown on CS and J would get us 100% uptime on ShoR out of the box, making us the most robust tanks in the game.
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  9. #3449
    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    just wanted to share a thought of mine... anyone else wishes that sanctity of battle will be removed from prot, we get baseline CD of 1.5 again on CS and judge and actually use tanking stats?

    i guess it never ever is gonna happen but yeah :s
    I would stop playing paladin then. Imo paladin rotation is unplayable above 1.25s GCD, to be fair, I am not sure I would be able to play at above 1.15s GCD now.

    I see 0 actual benefit of going back into tanking stats, could you ellaborate what you think would be better going back to the "traditional" tanking stats?
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #3450
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    I think you are on your own with that.

    Although a 1.5 second cooldown on CS and J would get us 100% uptime on ShoR out of the box, making us the most robust tanks in the game.
    And we would have the most complex rotation!

    JJJJJJJJJ, maybe wave in some GC procs....

    PS: And mandatory Double Jeopardy Glyph!

  11. #3451
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I would stop playing paladin then. Imo paladin rotation is unplayable above 1.25s GCD, to be fair, I am not sure I would be able to play at above 1.15s GCD now.

    I see 0 actual benefit of going back into tanking stats, could you ellaborate what you think would be better going back to the "traditional" tanking stats?
    Guessing its the bolded part thats crawling in me. traditional, lorewise. logic. if you consider what a tank is then you'd prefer to avoid damage as much as possible.

    the benefit? well, im guessing lootwise it could be benefitial. dont know how much d/p-mastery geared we disenchanted this expansion. but sure is alot, while slightly holding dps back since start of this tier for ex prot palas " atleast for us" almost got prio on dps items with haste on cuz we pushed out such dmg /heal that the tanks damage and healing actually helped progress more then the dps.

    I know it might sound bizarre in all but imao a tank should use tank stats, and no, saying "druids and monks dosnt need it", well there havent really been a leather item with dodge on since TBC. also they gain "tank stats" via agility same way we gain from str.

  12. #3452
    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    Guessing its the bolded part thats crawling in me. traditional, lorewise. logic. if you consider what a tank is then you'd prefer to avoid damage as much as possible.

    the benefit? well, im guessing lootwise it could be benefitial. dont know how much d/p-mastery geared we disenchanted this expansion. but sure is alot, while slightly holding dps back since start of this tier for ex prot palas " atleast for us" almost got prio on dps items with haste on cuz we pushed out such dmg /heal that the tanks damage and healing actually helped progress more then the dps.

    I know it might sound bizarre in all but imao a tank should use tank stats, and no, saying "druids and monks dosnt need it", well there havent really been a leather item with dodge on since TBC. also they gain "tank stats" via agility same way we gain from str.
    Tanks do use tank stats. Haste just happens to be a tank stat. Oh wait, did you mean tank only stats? Then I guess we should remove stam from non-tank gear, and str/agi from tank gear, and who knows about hit/exp, so that there's no overlap between tank stats and non-tank stats.

    Unless you're suggesting that all tanks should use the same stats, to which I'll say, druids and monks...and, homogenization.

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  13. #3453
    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    just wanted to share a thought of mine... anyone else wishes that sanctity of battle will be removed from prot, we get baseline CD of 1.5 again on CS and judge and actually use tanking stats?

    i guess it never ever is gonna happen but yeah :s
    Yeah....no. Not anyone wishes that except for some butthurt DPS on the PTR forums who whine about ERMAGERD TANK DEEPZZ.

    Really, really, REALLY hope it never ever happens. Ever.




    EVER.

    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    Guessing its the bolded part thats crawling in me. traditional, lorewise. logic. if you consider what a tank is then you'd prefer to avoid damage as much as possible.

    the benefit? well, im guessing lootwise it could be benefitial. dont know how much d/p-mastery geared we disenchanted this expansion. but sure is alot, while slightly holding dps back since start of this tier for ex prot palas " atleast for us" almost got prio on dps items with haste on cuz we pushed out such dmg /heal that the tanks damage and healing actually helped progress more then the dps.

    I know it might sound bizarre in all but imao a tank should use tank stats, and no, saying "druids and monks dosnt need it", well there havent really been a leather item with dodge on since TBC. also they gain "tank stats" via agility same way we gain from str.
    Tradition is a funny thing. It's like religion or customs or anything else that is a kind of unspoken, unproven, generally accepted by some/most "rule" of the way things should be. It's also usually very outdated and looks completely foolish to someone who wasn't raised/born in that same society.

    What I'm saying is that taking a giant leap back (and it would be a GIANT one), for no reason other than "lollore" is foolish. As a tank, we ALREADY are avoiding damage, we're just doing it BETTER than we could with the "traditional" gear. You can't plan around avoidance. You CAN plan AM. That's why we hate avoidance. That's why it's bad, and should feel bad. That's why we want it to go away.

    Now, once we get to the point where we are haste capped and have ShotR up ~90-100%, then sure, stack whatever you want. Extra dodge/parry is whatever. Personally, I'll still likely go for a mix of avoidance and throughput, but ONLY taking avoidance because of how it interacts with the new GC.

    There is NO benefit to what you're asking. None. Lootwise? Get real. Nobody wants it, and the devs are finally realizing that no matter how much glitter they sprinkle on that shit, it's still shit. Blue post from yesterday "confirms" that 6.0 D/P will be greatly changed/removed. I'm not sure how it holds back raid progression at all, RNG is RNG. There are some shitty loot tables, and t15 was one of them, but t16 looks strong.

    And the idea that leather tanks are somehow different than plate tanks is part of this same misconception of tradition. Druids (and monks) haven't been saddled with these shit stats, so they're somehow exempt from them because of tradition? No. They have a great way of working WITH innate "good" stats to affect their AM and actual avoidance (via SD/Shuffle) to make the act of avoiding things a more visceral experience, while not depending on utter shit RNG from stacking avoidnace secondaries. We FINALLY see a movement to this more intelligent, skillful and fun system for ALL tanks, and people lose their shit.

    I don't get it.

    This isn't directed at you, specifically (as I know you're smarter than this), but I really don't know which sounds more stupid: the people who lobby for why Dodge and Parry are fun/engaging/interesting stats that deserve to stick around and clutter up our loot table, or their reasoning on WHY.
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  14. #3454
    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    nice of you to go full ragemode from the start, clearly im talking about secondary stats, and hit /expertise is tank stats but u wouldnt take a hit/parry item as a dps now would you?
    That's the point.

    DPS don't want dodge/parry, as they don't serve any purpose.
    Tanks don't want dodge/parry, as they are inferior to all other options.

    So, rather than try to FORCE something that NOBODY wants, isn't it far simpler to just remove it? I'd say so (and have been saying so!), and it looks that we will be heading that way in 6.0.
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  15. #3455
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    .So, rather than try to FORCE something that NOBODY wants, isn't it far simpler to just remove it? I'd say so (and have been saying so!), and it looks that we will be heading that way in 6.0.
    Point taken. but at the point we are right NOW it do feel like a waste to DE every single "real" tank item so to speak when it comes to the general stats. dont get me wrong. me love dat haste, just feels like we got a change that maybe was in to early, SoB should of become available for us at the same time the redesign tanking overall as you say seem to happen in 6.0

    : blizz knew that in Mop paladins would stack haste with this change. just cant figure out why they didnt remove d/p then for everything instead of just making it for 1 tank class (out of the plateclasses)
    Last edited by Sunnydee; 2013-08-02 at 02:51 PM.

  16. #3456
    Wouldnt the far more logical solution to solving disenchanting d/p gear be removing dodge and parry from the gear all together? That would make the gear design much easier, loot tables smaller and easier to create, less items being disenchanted.

    If you really think about it, dodge and parry were never really tank stats, they were just the least shitty stats we had. We were forced into them. Stamina has always been the tank stat, the only other tank stat we really had was mastery in cataclysm. Okay, resistances were also good tanking stats.

    If you look at the gearing in the different expansion from wotlk to now.

    WotLK:

    -Get stamina
    -Get armor
    -Get resistance and block value gear for those fights it could be needed, I used resistance on Hodir, Anub heroic and Sindragosa heroic afaik.

    Cata:

    -Get CTC coverage at all costs
    -Stamina
    -Armor
    -Resistance items for wherever needed

    MoP:

    -Haste altering the entire speed of your rotation
    -Haste/Hit/Exp affecting your resource generation
    -Haste/Hit/Exp providing a real dps benefit for tanks, since tank dps now matters getting more gear on you also helps the raid with dps checks
    -Mastery as a defensive stat
    -Stamina
    -Armor
    -Crit viable to the point of sacrificing defensive stats in favor of dps

    Other than having more options than ever with how we gear, in previous expansions it was mostly get stat 1 as much as you can, then get stat 2 for everything else. Now we actually got several viable gearing strategies.

    Expertise hard cap>haste
    Expertise soft cap>haste
    mastery>all
    stamina>all
    crit>stam+mastery
    come 5.4 spell hit cap > avoidance > haste

    etc etc, there are just dozens of completely viable ways to gear. Never before did we have this many options to gear.

    Also, getting more gear has never been more fun. You actually see your character grow, since your dps is meaningful now, getting more gear you can see your dps go up, getting a new item is no longer "Yay, I got 500 more hp and 0.11% higher chance to dodge attacks!", now you can actually see your character grow far better.

    The interaction haste has with your character is far better aswell, as you get more gear, you can actually feel your rotation change, you feel your character evolve. Never before has any tank class had any gearing up mechanic as significant as this, it is imo the best designed mechanic any tank ever had.

    I am sorry, but I just see absolutely 0 benefit in any aspect from the previous gearing ways, other than nostalgia
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #3457
    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    Guessing its the bolded part thats crawling in me. traditional, lorewise. logic. if you consider what a tank is then you'd prefer to avoid damage as much as possible.

    the benefit? well, im guessing lootwise it could be benefitial. dont know how much d/p-mastery geared we disenchanted this expansion. but sure is alot, while slightly holding dps back since start of this tier for ex prot palas " atleast for us" almost got prio on dps items with haste on cuz we pushed out such dmg /heal that the tanks damage and healing actually helped progress more then the dps.

    I know it might sound bizarre in all but imao a tank should use tank stats, and no, saying "druids and monks dosnt need it", well there havent really been a leather item with dodge on since TBC. also they gain "tank stats" via agility same way we gain from str.
    Monk tier has dodge on it. And if they get "tank stats" from agility like we get them from strength, why not do away with d+p on gear? They don't need it. Why should we? Druids get dodge chance from agility, paladins get parry chance. Druids stack crit for their thing, we stack haste for ours.

    In Wrath we stacked armor and stamina. Fun times - not.
    In Cata we stacked mastery and stamina. Fun times - not. The only difference in our stats as we geared up was that we could shift more and more mastery gems into stamina.
    Last edited by Butler Log; 2013-08-02 at 02:51 PM.
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  18. #3458
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Monk tier has dodge on it. And if they get "tank stats" from agility like we get them from strength, why not do away with d+p on gear? They don't need it. Why should we? Druids get dodge chance from agility, paladins get parry chance. Druids stack crit for their thing, we stack haste for ours.
    And monks stack crit + haste (to a point where their energy regain is comfortable)
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #3459
    FWIW, the Paladin AM system is probably the only reason I enjoyed tanking T15. I didn't know much about tanking apart from the misconception that tank = meat shield as I swapped over from Holy to Prot. However, as I started to get more acquainted with the class, I realized we brought so much more than being a moving punching bag.

    My opinion may not have much weight since I didn't tank previous expansions, but from what I gather, it was basically reaching specific defensive caps and then afking until you had to move out of the fire. The current system rewards good play (jump into an LFR and completely demolish another paladin at the same IL wearing full parry/stam gear in threat/dps/hps/et al) and makes it pretty obvious who understands the class and who doesn't.

    I was never one for lore, but I think the current AM system makes much more sense from a lore perspective as well. When I envision a tank, I don't imagine someone who necessarily avoids attacks (with monks being an exception), but someone who can take the full brunt of an attack head on. Regardless of how powerful someone may be, it seems silly to think that you can just step to the side and avoid a major attack (dodge). Makes sense to time your block with an attack to mitigate the damage it would cause.

  20. #3460
    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    Point taken. but at the point we are right NOW it do feel like a waste to DE every single "real" tank item so to speak when it comes to the general stats. dont get me wrong. me love dat haste, just feels like we got a change that maybe was in to early, SoB should of become available for us at the same time the redesign tanking overall as you say seem to happen in 6.0

    : blizz knew that in Mop paladins would stack haste with this change. just cant figure out why they didnt remove d/p then for everything instead of just making it for 1 tank class (out of the plateclasses)
    It's only a waste because the gear is still around, cluttering up loot tables and ruining bonus rolls

    SoB paved the way for the "great stat sweep of 6.0", which also seems to potentially include accuracy stats, based on recent tweets/posts. I in no way wish that it was delayed, as it is likely to thank for most of the forward progression of AM and tanking in general.

    I am interested to see how they "fix" DK/War tanks with the new stats, though. If history shows anything, it's that the pioneers are superb in their era, then greatly show their flaws when the new iterations are introduced. Case in point: DKs.

    BDK in LK, and moreso in Cata were the "AM hipsters", the pioneers of the system that favors timing and skill over "stand there and get hit". However, in the NEW age of AM for all, DS + Blood shield are some of the worst performers out of all the AM tools. They were great in their day, and helped pave the way for the rest of us, but now are archaic and have some serious flaws.

    What does this mean for us, since WE are the BDK's of the AM revolution 2.0?
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