1. #3761
    Quote Originally Posted by Animma View Post
    DPS meta and cloak now have a 40% reduced chance to activate for tanks. Well the mantra of "We want to make the tanking stuff more attractive instead of nerfing the dps stuff" didn't last too long, now did it?
    Well that's just dandy.
    Considering that it also (meta) doesn't scale with haste anymore it'll probably go from ~10% dmg to about ... 4 % ?

  2. #3762
    Today I reached the highest SotR buff I have ever seen in current raid content, got a sotr buff that was over 1 minute (by my guess, about 65s is what I reached).
    Sadly, this was on trash... The trash before Horridon... I got 15, yes you read that right, 15 consecuive DP procs, I have never seen something like it, after which I didnt proc on one, then got 5 procs in a row again. Followed by the few odd procs here and there, it soon went up to 65seconds, honestly, dont know what to say. It was just crazy crazy luck. My previous DP proc record was something like 8 or 9 in a row, luckily that was on an actual boss, not trash.

    Going back to the topic of haste after 50%. I have been playing around a lot with haste at different levels today, ranging for 60% haste to 190% haste.
    What I can say for 5.4, is that I am definately going to keep a set in my inventory for haste stacking post 50%. I am likely to use a 50% haste set for usual fights, but for sure gonna have a higher haste set in my bags. Why you may ask. Well, the first thing I noticed playing around with the haste levels, is that the hps increase from SoI coupled with the absorbs from SS, or heals from EF if you are into that, was really not something you could ignore.

    The second thing brings me back to the previous example, of getting 15 GC procs in a row, while an extreme example, makes you overcap HoPo, as you cant dump it when you constantly get DP procs, I had this happen mutliple times during raid bosses that I miss out on 1 or 2 HoPo (well, generally I use fillers instead of the HoPo generator in these cases). This concerns me a lot with the new GC proc, when it is proably possible on some fight to do the GC abuse, spamming AS all the time, you would probably overcap often. What I realised is that SotR does not really have a GCD, just the cooldown that scales with haste. Had around 0.5 second CD with 190% haste which was quite funny watching those DP procs going away fast. Basically, it allows you to offload those SotRs faster causing a lower risk of overcapping. This is obviously very benefitial for your SotR uptime for anytime you are gonna get more HoPo than you can spend, often because of DP procs (I am looking at you guys using T15 4p).

    With that said, I am kinda scared at the gear sets we are looking at for 5.4

    I am going to want a standard hit>haste>exp>crit set, aswell as an spell hit>avoidance>haste, aswell as a spell hit>haste>avoidance set.
    And probably sometimes making a mix of those sets
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #3763
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Today I reached the highest SotR buff I have ever seen in current raid content, got a sotr buff that was over 1 minute (by my guess, about 65s is what I reached).
    Sadly, this was on trash... The trash before Horridon... I got 15, yes you read that right, 15 consecuive DP procs, I have never seen something like it, after which I didnt proc on one, then got 5 procs in a row again. Followed by the few odd procs here and there, it soon went up to 65seconds, honestly, dont know what to say. It was just crazy crazy luck. My previous DP proc record was something like 8 or 9 in a row, luckily that was on an actual boss, not trash.

    Going back to the topic of haste after 50%. I have been playing around a lot with haste at different levels today, ranging for 60% haste to 190% haste.
    What I can say for 5.4, is that I am definately going to keep a set in my inventory for haste stacking post 50%. I am likely to use a 50% haste set for usual fights, but for sure gonna have a higher haste set in my bags. Why you may ask. Well, the first thing I noticed playing around with the haste levels, is that the hps increase from SoI coupled with the absorbs from SS, or heals from EF if you are into that, was really not something you could ignore.

    The second thing brings me back to the previous example, of getting 15 GC procs in a row, while an extreme example, makes you overcap HoPo, as you cant dump it when you constantly get DP procs, I had this happen mutliple times during raid bosses that I miss out on 1 or 2 HoPo (well, generally I use fillers instead of the HoPo generator in these cases). This concerns me a lot with the new GC proc, when it is proably possible on some fight to do the GC abuse, spamming AS all the time, you would probably overcap often. What I realised is that SotR does not really have a GCD, just the cooldown that scales with haste. Had around 0.5 second CD with 190% haste which was quite funny watching those DP procs going away fast. Basically, it allows you to offload those SotRs faster causing a lower risk of overcapping. This is obviously very benefitial for your SotR uptime for anytime you are gonna get more HoPo than you can spend, often because of DP procs (I am looking at you guys using T15 4p).

    With that said, I am kinda scared at the gear sets we are looking at for 5.4

    I am going to want a standard hit>haste>exp>crit set, aswell as an spell hit>avoidance>haste, aswell as a spell hit>haste>avoidance set.
    And probably sometimes making a mix of those sets
    Do tell how you manage to get 190% haste

    Also i'd say it's something like spell hit > avoidance > haste/crit (for the worldofspamASalldaylong)

  4. #3764
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Do tell how you manage to get 190% haste

    Also i'd say it's something like spell hit > avoidance > haste/crit (for the worldofspamASalldaylong)
    The haste buff on isle of thunder

    Avoidance>haste on lower amounts of mobs, but if you get enough mobs on you, haste>avoidance. (As soon as you get enough mobs so you can guarantee GC procs all the time, any more avoidance wont help with the procs).

    Which is why both sets are probably adviseable.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #3765
    I haven't been following alot of the changes to cloaks since it was pretty much established that dps cloak stats>tank cloak proc. However, with the recent nerf to the cloak and meta should I switch?
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  6. #3766
    Might end up being on a fight to fight basis.
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  7. #3767
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheekun View Post
    I haven't been following alot of the changes to cloaks since it was pretty much established that dps cloak stats>tank cloak proc. However, with the recent nerf to the cloak and meta should I switch?
    From a 10 man PoV - Unless there is something I am intentionally going to cheese with the tank cloak (a.k.a. it allows me to solo tank an encounter), I will go with the dps cloak. It does not really matter how hard they nerf the dps legendaries for tanks, as long as survivability is a non-issue, dps is better.

    So yeah, as Nillo said, will be fight to fight basic with the dps version being the baseline and tank cloak being for, "Is there something I can cheese intentionally?"
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  8. #3768
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Fucks sake guys... I just clicked on "Show first new post" and was 3 pages behind... wtf!! And, I'm showing like 50 posts per page in my settings... WTF!!! Seriously guys!

    But I guess - as long as Enrage isn't an issue - Tank Meta should seem more of a choice now in 10man for progression, especially in the beginning when you need to 2-heal stuff in order to beat the dps check. Solo Tanking DA HC with about 750k-500k Vengeance for most of the fight, my Meta Damage was 11 Million. As solo tanking is out of the question in SoO (havent found a single bubbleable debuff for tankswitches on PTR), vengeance should stay quite low. My Lei Shen Meta Damage was about 3.4 Million Damage.

    Anybody got some information as to "how much" they nerfed the procc chance? If they halfed it I don't think 2 Million Damage (which is like 0.3-.5% of total HP from a SoO Boss) would outway the reduced damage you get from the Meta. Especially since they buffed it to ALL Damage (including magic).

    Farmcontent and Fights where Survival/Mana isn't an issue the Damage Meta should still be goodish. Cause it's as FF says, when survival isn't an issue, all DPS wins no matter how small.

    I feel with the Nerf to SS and the Nerf to Battle Healer, it's gonna change heal dynamics quite abit for SoO progression. I mean, that's like 5-10 Million more Healing the healers need to do (depending on how much of it truely was / would have been overheal). So, across the board we will take more damage and heal less damage. Sure after a while things will even out when we get more gear but first 2-3 weeks of SoO things will be quite hard.

    Whats your take on it?
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  9. #3769
    Quote Originally Posted by Riemu2k3 View Post
    But I guess - as long as Enrage isn't an issue - Tank Meta should seem more of a choice now in 10man for progression, especially in the beginning when you need to 2-heal stuff in order to beat the dps check. Solo Tanking DA HC with about 750k-500k Vengeance for most of the fight, my Meta Damage was 11 Million. As solo tanking is out of the question in SoO (havent found a single bubbleable debuff for tankswitches on PTR), vengeance should stay quite low. My Lei Shen Meta Damage was about 3.4 Million Damage.
    When T14 was on ptr, people said it was not solo tankable.
    When T15 was on ptr, people said it was not solo tankable, unlike T14
    Now T16 is on ptr, people say it is not solo tankable, unlike T15.

    Trust me, we will solo tank several fights this tier.

    Just look back at T15

    Jin - Solo tankable without bubble
    Horridon - Okay, quite hard to solo tank without bubble.
    Council - Solo tankable without bubble
    Tortos - Solo tankable without bubble
    Megaera - Solo tankable without bubble
    Ji-Kun - Solo tankable without bubble, requires a quick kill though.
    Durumu - Probably not solo tankable without bubble
    Primordius - Solo tankable in normal without bubble, heroic 2 tanks
    DA - Solo tankable in nuke strat without bubble, but in real strats you need more tanks
    Iron Qon - Solo tankable without bubble, but hard
    Twins - Solo tankable without bubble
    Lei-Shen - Solo tankable without bubble
    Ra-den - solo tankable without bubble
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #3770
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Jin - Solo tankable without bubble
    Horridon - Okay, quite hard to solo tank without bubble.
    Council - Solo tankable without bubble
    Tortos - Solo tankable without bubble
    Megaera - Solo tankable without bubble
    Ji-Kun - Solo tankable without bubble, requires a quick kill though.
    Durumu - Probably not solo tankable without bubble
    Primordius - Solo tankable in normal without bubble, heroic 2 tanks
    DA - Solo tankable in nuke strat without bubble, but in real strats you need more tanks
    Iron Qon - Solo tankable without bubble, but hard
    Twins - Solo tankable without bubble
    Lei-Shen - Solo tankable without bubble
    Ra-den - solo tankable without bubble
    You forgot to say "in 10man". Because you can't solo tank in 25man without bubble. Well, maybe Ra-den, but I'm not there yet.
    And you can't solo tank Lei Shen heroic on 10man, I'm pretty sure about that.
    Also, you still need taunts from DPS on most of the bosses to avoid certain stuff.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
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  11. #3771
    So i'm guessing the tank meta may actually be worth it next patch, the nerf to the dps meta proc chance for tanks, coupled with the tank meta working for all damage and the higher proc chance. The dps cloak still seems better personally, even with the reduced proc chance. I'm still a bit iffy..
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  12. #3772
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    And you can't solo tank Lei Shen heroic on 10man, I'm pretty sure about that.
    You can .

  13. #3773
    I'm not worried about the DPS cloak nerf, as it was scaling with AP rather well.
    It would have easily reached the point where it would have given more of a DPS boost to tanks than to the DPSs. (Ala DPS-meta.)
    But the Tank-meta looks better and better.

    The fact that I can swap 2 cloaks out rather easily depending on the fight is nice too.

  14. #3774
    Cross-posting a bit, but I CBA to re-type. Tanking meta will be useful (especially now that it's 20% to ALL damage) with its uptime of ~65%+. Will still be able to swap to Cap meta for ranking, or for tight enrages, but on early HC-progression I'll be using the tank meta. Cap meta is ~8% of damage in a 10HC clear now, but keep in mind that V levels will be a tad lower with the changes, and 40% fewer procs will put it ~5%. Not bad, but outshined by having an extra DivProt up 65% of the time.

    Add to that, with new UbS changes (and CDR trinket) you can have ACTUAL DivProt up ~45% of the time too...

    Cloak wise, I'll probably get both, but will likely use the DPS one more than AD one (10H POV, again). If the AD cape was still 1min CD then MAYBE it'd be a tougher call, but currently I just don't see how you'd be better off using it in most cases. Seems more of an "oops-eraser" than a legendary, and I don't really want to gear around planning how to recover from mistakes, personally. May change in week 1 of HC content though.

    The cloak proc WAS shaping up to be insane with high-V tho...around 1.2mil dmg PER TARGET per proc. We'll still hit that hard, just ~0.95 PPM instead of ~1.55 (or whatever it was).

    I don't like that they're renegging on the "we're not going to nerf DPS stuff, just make tanking better instead!" by 1) nerfing DPS stuff and 2) not making tank stuff (cape) better....but whatever. It will perhaps be refreshing (lore/tradition-wise) to be using Stam trinkets (Norushen trink) and "real" tank things again. If for no other reason than that MAYBE NOW THE BUTTHURT DPS WILL STFU ABOUT US TAKING HASTE LOOT.
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  15. #3775
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Jin - Solo tankable without bubble
    Horridon - Okay, quite hard to solo tank without bubble.
    Council - Solo tankable without bubble
    Tortos - Solo tankable without bubble
    Megaera - Solo tankable without bubble
    Ji-Kun - Solo tankable without bubble, requires a quick kill though.
    Durumu - Probably not solo tankable without bubble
    Primordius - Solo tankable in normal without bubble, heroic 2 tanks
    DA - Solo tankable in nuke strat without bubble, but in real strats you need more tanks
    Iron Qon - Solo tankable without bubble, but hard
    Twins - Solo tankable without bubble
    Lei-Shen - Solo tankable without bubble
    Ra-den - solo tankable without bubble
    I really don't think you understand that blizzard specifically doesn't want us to solo tank fights in T16. They want multiple tanks in fights, and designed the fights with a lot of hard tank swaps with debuffs you can not remove with bubble. I'm not sure if you've done any PTR testing yet, but I haven't been able to solo tank anything on there, and I know many other paladins who have tried.

    Granted, some things changed for T15 from PTR to Live, but the fact that you could bubble debuffs on 5.2 PTR didn't change. I look forward to you trying to solo tank every fight and proving us wrong, but many of us will just do it the normal way and use 2 tanks.

    So i'm guessing the tank meta may actually be worth it next patch, the nerf to the dps meta proc chance for tanks, coupled with the tank meta working for all damage and the higher proc chance. The dps cloak still seems better personally, even with the reduced proc chance. I'm still a bit iffy..
    I mentioned the tank meta change pages back, this is the first "official" announcement of the change. Honestly, not surprised to see the dps cloak get nerfed. I guess they really do want us to just use our normal spec's legendary. This won't change anything for me, wouldn't be surprised to see 10 tanks taking the tank cloak though. Will honestly be surprised to see them take the dps one with this nerf though. 40% is a pretty decent damage difference.



  16. #3776
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I don't like that they're renegging on the "we're not going to nerf DPS stuff, just make tanking better instead!" by 1) nerfing DPS stuff and 2) not making tank stuff (cape) better....but whatever. It will perhaps be refreshing (lore/tradition-wise) to be using Stam trinkets (Norushen trink) and "real" tank things again. If for no other reason than that MAYBE NOW THE BUTTHURT DPS WILL STFU ABOUT US TAKING HASTE LOOT.
    Does Norushen drop a stam trink? I thought the Norushen trinket was the cleave/strength proc one. Malkorok drops the nice stam/CD reduce trinket IIRC.

    On a separate note, got a nice string of DP procs (not as nice as FF's though) and hit 75.6% uptime on Durumu. Record high

  17. #3777
    Norushen does drop the str/cleave one.



  18. #3778
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    I mentioned the tank meta change pages back, this is the first "official" announcement of the change. Honestly, not surprised to see the dps cloak get nerfed. I guess they really do want us to just use our normal spec's legendary. This won't change anything for me, wouldn't be surprised to see 10 tanks taking the tank cloak though. Will honestly be surprised to see them take the dps one with this nerf though. 40% is a pretty decent damage difference.
    Yeah I don't think people understand the magnitude of difference that 20% physical vs 20% ALL dmg redux makes. That, coupled with the huge boon to uptime, removes a lot of the suck from the tank LMG.

    As for capes in 10s, I guess we'll just have to see. I'll retain the DPS one until/unless something forces me to make use of the 2min AD. The biggest blow is that the proc CHANCE is reduced by 40%, not the proc DAMAGE. This means we'll likely see the cleave go out on the pull (low V), then once a minute after that. I can see this losing a lot of its potency since 60 sec intervals from the pull may not coincide with lot of adds/targets to cleave. Still, damage on the boss is nice, and if we don't make use of the AD cape, it's the clear choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    Does Norushen drop a stam trink? I thought the Norushen trinket was the cleave/strength proc one. Malkorok drops the nice stam/CD reduce trinket IIRC.
    Eh, maybe it was him. I was parousing tables yesterday and trying to make a list in my head. Didn't bother to write anything down, so you're probably right.
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    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
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  19. #3779
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    40% is a pretty decent damage difference.
    That's true, but if you don't need the tanking cloak/meta, there's no reason not to go with the dps version. What this'll mean, and what's going to be annoying as a result, is some of us will decide to keep 2 helms and cloaks, and switch on a fight by fight basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  20. #3780
    The DPS cloak looks to have a 1.05+haste RPPM trigger for tanks instead of 1.75+haste for dps at a 2/2 upgrade. Like I said before, if you have 150k vengeance and 40k ap you end up only doing 380k to a single target.



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