1. #4041
    I've seen several Paladins mention the potential viability of the 4pc and the "Harsh Words" glyph? I find this a very interesting idea and a potentially overpowered one, anyone have any more insight on this?

  2. #4042
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renerock View Post
    I've seen several Paladins mention the potential viability of the 4pc and the "Harsh Words" glyph? I find this a very interesting idea and a potentially overpowered one, anyone have any more insight on this?
    I know it was fixed with something, I can't 100% remember what since I only heard about it, I think Harsh Words was using BoG stacks or something so WoG was giving you a hefty attack. It won't work anymore though.
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  3. #4043
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    It was overpowered. It was a 20%+ dps increase and as much as +30% increase in sotr uptime. It was fixed a few weeks back because it was OP and unintended (sadface)

  4. #4044
    At some point on the PTR, you could get the t16 4pc buff at 3+ BoG stacks, use harsh words (which consumed the tier buff, but not the BoG stacks), then SotR to get the tier buff back and harsh words again. You could repeat it over and over as long as you stayed at 3+ BoG stacks. It was rightly fixed though.

    Now Glyph of Word of Glory will be pretty nice when running t16 4pc, as is fishing for DP procs.

  5. #4045
    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    theck hasn't provided his weak aura strings for 5.4 by now, has he?
    since I'm using his "SS actual and estimated absorb value" string (or however you want to call it), it would be nice to see an update for it, as well as a similar string for the new EF.

    if anyone hears something about this, would be nice to post it here. at least on sacredduty I haven't found anything for now.
    Looking at his pastebin, he hasn't updated it recently (he has one from Aug 28th, but it doesn't contain the changes he recently said he was going to make, that will give some indication of current HoPo+BoG+Vengeance for EF vs currently ticking EF) but keep an eye out. I'd expect he'll also have a blog about it in the near future, but you never know (and even if he does, the pastebin will likely get updated first)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  6. #4046
    So i'm going to be hitting SoO with my guild tonight. After reading a few pages of this post I've started to implement the changes suggested for 5.4. However I have a few questions before tonight. Namely the value of the tanking meta and the nerf to the dps cloaks/meta procs. I've pretty much accepted that the dps stats on the legy cloak are the way to go. However with the meta being "buffed" and the dps one being hit with a 40% nerf, i'm almost considering switching to it (low cost, good for progression till farm).

    Oh and i almost forgot, before tier 16 4 set, what glyph are we generally accepting as the replacement for battle healer?

    Thoughts please?
    Last edited by Cheekun; 2013-09-10 at 09:59 PM.
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  7. #4047
    Yes, switch to the tank meta. Go back a few pages in this thread to see discussion on the glyphs.

  8. #4048
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Anyone remember in what page are the lengthy discussion over which cloak to take?

    I'm switching to tank meta gem but still not convinced about the cloak but I was told that there were some changes that made the tank one the best option?

    Anyway, don't want to cause repetition so if anyone could point me to about the right page, I'll be happy to go look.

    Been off a couple weeks and missed all the iterations.

    Also, has anyone made a BiS gear sheet somewhere?

    I feelz lazy.


  9. #4049
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Anyone remember in what page are the lengthy discussion over which cloak to take?

    I'm switching to tank meta gem but still not convinced about the cloak but I was told that there were some changes that made the tank one the best option?

    Anyway, don't want to cause repetition so if anyone could point me to about the right page, I'll be happy to go look.

    Been off a couple weeks and missed all the iterations.

    Also, has anyone made a BiS gear sheet somewhere?

    I feelz lazy.
    I don't know exactly what page this long discussion is on, but i can give you the TLDR version.

    The dps cloak is generally worth going for strictly based on stats.

    The tanking cloak is essentially an old designed Ardent Defender (it procs to save your life). But because of its long cooldown and the tanking cloak's horrible stats, the dps cloak is generally better.

    The real meat of the discussion is that the tanking cloak is only really worth taking if it cheeses the fight in such a way as to make it considerably easier. Furthermore, most tanks agree that the fights aren't really designed around needing the cloak in the first place (bosses aren't going to OHKO you without any warning) so a good paladin will always be able to buffer the damage INC (SoTR etc), making the proc effectively wasted.

    Dps stats help you all of the time, throughout the whole fight. The tanking cloak is only useful if you make a huge mistake (avoidable) so your essentially getting a cloak with two terrible stats and a realtively useless effect that only gets used once every two minutes (max uptime) assuming you make a critical error every two minutes (isn't going to happen).

    Maybe not so much TLDR but this is what i recall from that convo.
    Last edited by Cheekun; 2013-09-10 at 11:36 PM.
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  10. #4050
    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    I actually hate EF and will do what I can to avoid using it until 4P.
    After doing SoO a bit tonight..........I take this back.

  11. #4051
    Bloodsail Admiral Ninaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    SW is more advanced than I think he's capable of, and will yield even less results than DP. Have him stick with HA.
    This.. uh.. kinda sounds like HA is the inferior choice, but easier to manage.. I've been using HA all this time, because I don't really like random chances.. but is SW really much better so that it's worth switching?
    Mastery will fix it.

  12. #4052
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninaran View Post
    This.. uh.. kinda sounds like HA is the inferior choice, but easier to manage.. I've been using HA all this time, because I don't really like random chances.. but is SW really much better so that it's worth switching?
    SW got nicely buffed in patch (2 HP for J instead of 1 while AW is up), so I can expect it to pull ahead of HA.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
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  13. #4053
    Stood in the Fire
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    Did anyone notice the vengeance nerf hitting us kind of hard?


    I didnt break over 150k vengeance until Galakras came down. Just felt weird compared to the giant jump in vengeance from t14 heroics to t15 normals

  14. #4054
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    SW got nicely buffed in patch (2 HP for J instead of 1 while AW is up), so I can expect it to pull ahead of HA.
    SW is a stronger CD, as it gives the extra 20% healing taken buff too, but it is less often up than HA. 3min (2.5 with trinket) vs 2min.
    It will depend mostly on encounter and player preference.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptJSparrow View Post
    Did anyone notice the vengeance nerf hitting us kind of hard?


    I didnt break over 150k vengeance until Galakras came down. Just felt weird compared to the giant jump in vengeance from t14 heroics to t15 normals
    Galakras is just a ****. You barely get Vengance while tanking the adds, because of:
    1) 1/n Vengance from multiple mobs
    2) No vengance from AOE damage.

  15. #4055
    I honestly dont understand the logic behind 1/n vengeance formula. Feels like it is way to steep for aoe tanking.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #4056
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    1/n vengeance basically forces tanks to pull and tank as less and as hard hitting mobs as possible.
    ... you are screwed when you simply HAVE to on a fight like galakras

  17. #4057
    eh with dps cloak + massive avenger shield spam a fight like galakras wasnt bad i was still doing 220k dps


  18. #4058
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheekun View Post
    Maybe not so much TLDR but this is what i recall from that convo.
    Yeah that was an accurate recap of the convo here. I don't want to re-open the discussion but do want to register some dissent. The idea that you can avoid dying so something that saves your life is not worth taking just seems bizarre. We are not machines - we make mistakes, especially on progression when gear matters (some top tanks say they make mistakes every 3 or so GCDs). I think the best advice is to get both cloaks and decide which one you want to wear depending on whether you want a bit more survivability or a bit more dps.

    Here's two posts from elsewhere that I found persuasive:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaidam
    For a player attempting to push progression, I'd advise the tanking cloak. For a player in a more casual raid, I'd advise using the tank cloak. For the player who only does LFR, I'd advise the tanking cloak.

    It's not even a matter of how hard bosses hit, it's just that when the tank dies in a stable situation, 90% of the time it's a tank derp, or some other massive damage mechanic. Bosses simply don't swing fast enough or have enough mechanics going on that it's likely you die from rapid little attacks. I raid in a spectrum of content, from a 10m that is barely 2/13 heroic right now to a 13/13 25m that killed ra-den over four months ago. I don't feel I die particularly less in the 10m normal raid, and when I do it's usually from some fairly hard hitting mechanic/derp. My deaths are usually related to unhealable burst = very high damage attacks. Snapping bite, talon rake, triple puncture, hard stare, massive slam, the random aggro pull -> fan of flames, taking a decap/fusion slash I wasn't supposed to, etc.

    DPS cloak boosts damage sure. If that's what you really care about, who am I to judge, right? However, I believe that the tank legendary is the stronger by far of the choices for speed of progression as in on your back the entire time from your first pull on Immerseus normal to the final pull of heroic Garrosh.

    Passive ardent defender made prot pallies overpowered for an entire expansion back in wrath, and they're freely handing a similar ability out to every tank who wants one ...
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22221900

    And more humorously:

    Quote Originally Posted by Meloree
    Assertion: The proc on the tank cloak is hilariously overpowered. So overpowered, in fact, that I contend that it's worth more DPS than the DPS cloak's stats and procs, even with the subpar itemization, in addition to being worth more survival than, roughly, anything that's ever been in the game before, barring 3.2 era Ardent Defender.

    How is it worth DPS, you might ask? I contend that it is so hilariously good for raw survival that you could happily start reforging your stats into crit and come out ahead on survival AND dps over any other option.

    Proof of assertion is left as an exercise for the reader. Because that is WAY easier on me.
    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...33397&start=30

  19. #4059
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptJSparrow View Post
    Did anyone notice the vengeance nerf hitting us kind of hard?


    I didnt break over 150k vengeance until Galakras came down. Just felt weird compared to the giant jump in vengeance from t14 heroics to t15 normals
    Yea, honestly feels like they nerfed it by much more than the 1.8% to 1.5%

  20. #4060
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Yea, honestly feels like they nerfed it by much more than the 1.8% to 1.5%
    It's the nerf to multiple adds you're feeling. Was one of my concerns earlier in the ptr cycle that it was too much (and I'm not talking dps wise, cause who cares about that really). Since we scale so much with vengeance in regards to survival. When suddenly we starts taking damage that previously would give us 200k+ vengeance and we only get 100k we're gonna be lacking in the survival department.

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