1. #421
    Yes, that sounds about right. Which I guess would make 4540 rating a bit of a soft cap if your using windsong and always reapply SS when your windsong procs.

    On some second looks here, It seemed my initital thoughts of the sacred shield break points is a bit off, they seem to happen slightly faster. From first look, it appeared that the amount ticks you get is how many amount of ticks you get in a 32 second window.
    Had a break point happen even earlier now by swapping out some gear, and noticed it break as early as 32.3 seconds
    The numbers I posted earlier are probably not entirely correct for breakpoints but should be close.

    Looks like the 7 ticks breakpoint is at 30% spell haste exactly ( I got it with 30.06%, it was as close as I could get with my gear )


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    Last edited by Firefly33; 2012-10-31 at 02:42 AM.

  2. #422
    OK, so time to find another 3500 haste rating from somewhere (or 2000 to hit that soft-cap) :/
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  3. #423
    Yeah, as I wrote above, it is slightly lower even. Not sure exactly where the break points happen, not an expert theorycrafter so to speak

    If above is true then 5336 rating should be enough with SoI and 5% spell haste.
    Which would put soft cap to 3836 only.

    And to be honest, difference between "soft" and "hard" cap is not the big difference if you put some addon to track Windsong Haste procs and just reapply when it is up.

    Edit: The 9 ticks breakpoint happens between 69.92% haste and 70.11% haste
    The 8 point break point happens between 49.96% and 50.10%

    So, it looks like the 7,8,9 breakpoints are at 30, 50, 70%

    Which would translate into


    7 ticks - 5543 rating - 4043 rating soft cap with windsong proc
    8 ticks - 12695 rating - 11195 rating soft cap with windsong proc
    9 ticks - 20055 rating - 19555 rating soft cap with windsong proc

    The 9 ticks one is probably unobtainable in current gear, however 8 ticks will be very much obtainable in HoF gear.

    Though lets also remember, that this is also assuming that you do not refresh your SS before it falls off. If that happens each point of haste is valuable. So if you refresh you SS the breakpoints will not matter as much.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2012-10-31 at 03:18 AM.

  4. #424
    Pandaren Monk rawhammer's Avatar
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    SS Spell Gear Haste
    Tics Haste Haste Rating
    5 1.0 0.0% 0
    6 1.2 3.9% 1,656
    7 1.4 21.2% 9,015
    8 1.6 38.5% 16,374
    9 1.8 55.8% 23,734

    This is the values of gear haste required that i calculated (assuming you have SoI 10% and Spell Haste buff 5%).

    Formula:
    Spell Haste required = SS Tics / (30/6)
    Gear Haste = ((Spell Haste / (1.1*1.05)) -1)*100
    Haste Rating = Gear Haste * 425
    EDIT: meh table really doesnt like copy paste from Excel.
    Last edited by rawhammer; 2012-10-31 at 01:24 PM.
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  5. #425
    If I may ask, are there some sort of breakpoints trying to be found? For something that's easily kept at 100% uptime, it seems a bit odd to measure SS in number of ticks over 30s rather than the frequency of them(especially when, at a certain skill level, it's strategically refreshed early). And measured with the latter, a breakpoint doesn't really exist except in very specific situations.
    Last edited by Elathi; 2012-10-31 at 01:18 PM.

  6. #426
    Pandaren Monk rawhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elathi View Post
    If I may ask, are there some sort of breakpoints trying to be found? For something that's easily kept at 100% uptime, it seems a bit odd to measure SS in number of ticks over 30s rather than the frequency of them(especially when, at a certain skill level, it's strategically refreshed early). And measured with the latter, a breakpoint doesn't really exist except in very specific situations.
    No not as such....what i think it does demonstrate is the effect haste has on the time between individual shields. One way to "measure" this is to note the number of shields that are created for for each individual application of the SS (30 sec) buff. Another would be to just show the cd between shields:

    Haste rating 0 2,125 4,250 6,375 8,500 10,625
    Gear Haste 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25%
    SS refresh 5.195 4.947 4.723 4.517 4.329 4.156

    There is no "breakpoint" imo, as haste just reduced the refresh time linearly, after all we will be keeping the SS (30 sec) buff up 100% of the time regardless.

    EDIT: im guessing what the guys above are talking about is if you had a lovely vengence spike and activated SS (30 sec) how many uber shield tics youd get before the buff would wear off and you'd have to refresh. /shrug
    Last edited by rawhammer; 2012-10-31 at 01:36 PM.
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  7. #427
    The thing is that the addiontal tick does not come from when you get enough ticks into the 30 second window, it actually comes when you get enough ticks in a rough 32.2-32.3 second window.

    I physically tried this out in game yesterday and the breakpoints happened at 30, 50, 70% for 7,8,9 ticks. Which would be 5543, 11195, 19555 rating.

  8. #428
    Pandaren Monk rawhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The thing is that the addiontal tick does not come from when you get enough ticks into the 30 second window, it actually comes when you get enough ticks in a rough 32.2-32.3 second window.

    I physically tried this out in game yesterday and the breakpoints happened at 30, 50, 70% for 7,8,9 ticks. Which would be 5543, 11195, 19555 rating.
    hmmm odd that it would be at 32.2/3 secs. Updating my table for that time period gives:

    SS Spell Gear Haste
    Tics Haste Haste Rating
    5 0.929 -19.6% -8,324
    6 1.115 -3.5% -1,488
    7 1.300 12.6% 5,347
    8 1.486 28.7% 12,182
    9 1.672 44.7% 19,017


    About the same as yours. As in you dont need any haste from gear to get 6 tics.
    Anyhoo i think the only really important thing to look at is the time between SSs refreshing decreases with time as per my post above ^^. As Elathi mentioned, there's no real benefit in trying to reach a threshold to get "additional" tics from a single SS (30 sec) cast as it is up 100% of the time.
    Last edited by rawhammer; 2012-10-31 at 02:51 PM.
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  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    About the same as yours. As in you dont need any haste from gear to get 6 tics.
    Anyhoo i think the only really important thing to look at is the time between SSs refreshing decreases with time as per my post above ^^. As Elathi mentioned, there's no real benefit in trying to reach a threshold to get "additional" tics from a single SS (30 sec) cast as it is up 100% of the time.
    Yeah, the only benefit is if you do not constantly keep refreshing it. Otherwise, every point of haste helps.

    I think it scales like that the standard duration is 30 seconds, but due to haste scaling, it choses the least deviating path. So lets say when it gets down to 3.99 seconds.

    Either you get 7 ticks on a 27.93s ss, or 8 ticks on a 31.92s ss

    27.93 is further away from 30s than 31.92s is, therefore you get 8 ticks on 31.92s duration insead.
    so the actualy breakpoint would be where the time beteen each SS tick 4s ( 50% ) or 1 rating above that ( depending if it scales up or down )

    Which is why it brakes on 32 sec for 8 ticks. But the main thing here is the increased duration. While the HPS is the same, you gotta refresh it less often. 1 haste rating differs between a 28s shield with 7 ticks or a 32s 8 tick one.

    Which is why the earlier break points is about when it reaches 32.2 for 7 ticks, and 32.4 for 6 ticks probably ( dont know exact numbers )
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2012-10-31 at 03:07 PM.

  10. #430
    So my estimate from mental napkin maths for the 7th tick wasn't too far off then
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  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    So my estimate from mental napkin maths for the 7th tick wasn't too far off then
    Your napkin math was entirely correct with the assumptions that were usen then, with that the new tick occurs when you can squeeze in an addiotional tick within 30 sec, while in reality it seems to chose the least deviating path.

    I think so more research has to be done on exactly when the breakpoints happen. But as said before, if your keeping SS up all the time, it does not really matter.

    The difference comes in handy if you do not keep it up constantly / You do not have to recast it as often when you just reached a cap.

    If you have 28 or 32 sec duration you can wait almost 3 more globals to refresh

    As I wrote earlier, I did some quick testing with gear swapping etc to find the rough breakpoints.

    The 9 ticks breakpoint happens between 69.92% haste and 70.11% haste
    The 8 ticks breakpoint happens between 49.96% and 50.10%

    and with 30.06% I had the 7 tick breakpoint.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2012-10-31 at 03:14 PM.

  12. #432
    Yeah, I got 32% haste (~90% tolerance) for the 7th tick.
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  13. #433
    Pandaren Monk GenaiTN's Avatar
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    Merin, is River's Song really that good? I've been using Windsong and it's better in every aspect in my opinion.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Helai View Post
    Merin, is River's Song really that good? I've been using Windsong and it's better in every aspect in my opinion.
    I would agree with this.

  15. #435
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    Personally I'm still running colossus for the weapon enchant. Windsong stat wise seems to have an edge on it but I found proc based haste could throw your rotation into a spin with with the cool downs being modified like that. It's a personal preference and its seemed to have made a negligible difference.

    I'd be surprised if riversong sims anywhere close to either colossus or windsong, simply because of the harness of dodge dr. We all know the equations, but as a practical example I had my vial and dmc up together and I was rocking ~12k dodge/3.8k parry rating, yet percentage wise it was a 20%/18% split respectively. With that level of diminishiment I'd highly doubt riversong could pull ahead.

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  16. #436
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    Windsong is better, I thought that I had updated it aaaages ago but it appears not.
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  17. #437
    The Patient Leaftwig's Avatar
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    Hello!

    I was browsing through your guide (Good work, keep it up!) and I noticed that a gem that I like to use is missing.

    Keen Vermilion Onyx

    It might be a good addition to the red slot? I dunno, I just wanted to bring it up.
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  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Leaftwig View Post
    Hello!

    I was browsing through your guide (Good work, keep it up!) and I noticed that a gem that I like to use is missing.

    Keen Vermilion Onyx

    It might be a good addition to the red slot? I dunno, I just wanted to bring it up.
    Wicked Vermilion Onyx

    Would be a far better choice for red socket.

  19. #439
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Wicked Vermilion Onyx

    Would be a far better choice for red socket.
    Unless you're going for the mastery build in which case Keen is better.

    Please, look, if you read back over your posts on this thread you seem to be a major backer for the Haste build - cool. But the mastery build isn't inferior and it isn't wrong and if you look at the majority of hardmode raiding tanks especially the first ones, they all went mastery over haste. Now I'm not going to cite mastery is better but could you maybe just accept both are good? Rather than just stonewalling it for whatever reason you pick. I changed my point of view once I saw the evidence, hopefully others can do the same.

    Adding the Keen Onyx now.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nicus/advanced
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    Oh shut the fuck up you spack cunt.

  20. #440
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    Haste hipsters. If only you could xmog to Obey merchandise. ^_^

    But really, it is getting kind of ridiculous how the same 3-5 people bombard every thread asking for assistance with crucifying mastery and claiming haste is superior is every way. I'm all for theorycrafting and balanced opinions but when people visibly gang up on someone suggesting mastery it starts to get kind of creepy.

    So far the only advantage haste has over mastery that has been quantified and proven is the dps benefit. The numbers that exist as of right now show Haste takes significantly more damage for the mild benefit to damage smoothing. Every time this is hinted at the same people list the same two things, SoI/BH and SS ticks. Neither of which can be proven to make up the damage difference.

    Since these points cannot be proven to be superior people see these benefits and think 'oh that sounds really good' and either join the craze or follow mindlessly.

    People are fine to do as they will and run as they chose. If your raid needs the dps that badly than you're swagging. But at the point where the argument loses logic and becomes a fight for your honour, it losses credibility.

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