1. #461
    Still backing the mastery build over the haste build at the moment.

    (Rexal - Lightbringer EU)

    I find that it is not worth going haste for me, even though my guild needs the damage (Elegon, I'm looking @ you...) I find myself unable to maintain a perfect rotation AND assist in leading the raid, as well as focusing on other general things that tanks have to do such as avoiding boss abilities and generating threat (Not that that is much of an issue).

    And because I am often assisting in leading raids, I don't have my eyes glued to my rotation and I easily make mistakes (several times I've found myself using my HP generating abilities at 5 HP for e.g, or not using SotR for an extended period of time, losing SS and not rebuffing it for awhile).

    My point being that, even if the numbers say something is better than another thing, unless there is a huge difference then go for what suits YOUR playstyle and YOUR needs more than what the theorycrafters say is "better".

    My example being that I am a social raider, not a hardcore raider, my guild is very middle of the pack (Killed 8/8 Hc DS 5 weeks before MoP finished for e.g, in the weeks leading up to MoP we managed to get another 12 people the title and get most of the same people the Meta too for 22 saviour of azeroths and riders of Twilight Harbingers ), We do not intent to be hardcore and don't expect players to know the ins and outs of their class like how to spell their name, therefore while I do try to do my best, I know I can not perform the haste build properly and will hold my guild back if I was to go that route.

    To all the players who think Haste is the be-all end-all of specs, be mindful of other peoples playstyles and the likes, to the others who are confused over which is better. Think about what you want to achieve, what your guild is capable of, what content you are doing and what suits yourself the most, at the moment there is no 100% clear winner between Haste and Mastery, If you are confident that you can pull of the haste build then go ahead, if you are hesistant/know you aren't that awesome/prot tanking is your off spec. then stick with Mastery for now.

  2. #462
    One thing that is often overlooked however is that mastery also requires you to land your rotation very well.
    Whilst I agree haste requires even more on the rotation part, most people make is sound like you hit 1 spell wrong in haste build your dead and if you just faceroll with mastery build your fine. The real truth is that they are very close in terms on screw ups, whilst haste is a bit less forgiving, do not believe that mastery is forgiving either.

    If you are not that tight with your rotation, the best route is probably stamina with a nice mix of doge/parry/mastery
    Hit and exp lose alot of value if you dont click the buttons correct.

    Stamina, dodge and parry is the only stats that are completely independant of your rotation.

  3. #463
    Mastery should still be better than an avoidance route even if you go afk, you're gaining amounts of damage smoothing from passive block far beyond the small amounts of parry/dodge you'll get, thats why people make it out the way they do

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Mastery should still be better than an avoidance route even if you go afk, you're gaining amounts of damage smoothing from passive block far beyond the small amounts of parry/dodge you'll get, thats why people make it out the way they do
    Yup, while that is true. I still believe stamina > mastery if you cannot maintain a rotation. And definately dodge/parry > hit/exp
    ofc, given your rotation is messed up

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yup, while that is true. I still believe stamina > mastery if you cannot maintain a rotation. And definately dodge/parry > hit/exp
    ofc, given your rotation is messed up
    If your rotation is messed up, surely it would be better to learn to not mess it up than use a sub-optimal setup as a band-aid?
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  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    If your rotation is messed up, surely it would be better to learn to not mess it up than use a sub-optimal setup as a band-aid?
    Following this vein of thought... exactly how badly could you be messing up your rotation that you would need to change your entire gearset to compensate? Is our rotation far more difficult than I initially believed?

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Luciferiuz View Post
    Is our rotation far more difficult than I initially believed?
    Probably not, but, something else people often overlook is that your rotation is (hopefully) not the only thing you're paying attention to during a given fight.

  8. #468
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    One thing that is often overlooked however is that mastery also requires you to land your rotation very well... do not believe that mastery is forgiving either.
    Thinking in terms of how much fucking up you could concieveably do even if you find yourself drooling on the keyboard occasionally, the mastery build will suffer less from your... lack of interest.

    Don't think I've seen anyone claim that you can really fuck it up, of course the mastery build requires a half decent rotation, but for your rotation to be THAT bad where avoidance > mastery in terms of damage smoothing, you really must be sitting at your desk whilst your computer is busy in Afghanistan. Within reasonable levels of rotational mishaps, Mastery > Haste but if you can get it perfect then you have the choice between the 2 builds as they are equal, just depends what extra perk you want.
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    Oh shut the fuck up you spack cunt.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Thinking in terms of how much fucking up you could concieveably do even if you find yourself drooling on the keyboard occasionally, the mastery build will suffer less from your... lack of interest.

    Don't think I've seen anyone claim that you can really fuck it up, of course the mastery build requires a half decent rotation, but for your rotation to be THAT bad where avoidance > mastery in terms of damage smoothing, you really must be sitting at your desk whilst your computer is busy in Afghanistan. Within reasonable levels of rotational mishaps, Mastery > Haste but if you can get it perfect then you have the choice between the 2 builds as they are equal, just depends what extra perk you want.
    TL;DR: Start with Mastery, then make your choice after that

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Thinking in terms of how much fucking up you could concieveably do even if you find yourself drooling on the keyboard occasionally, the mastery build will suffer less from your... lack of interest.

    Don't think I've seen anyone claim that you can really fuck it up, of course the mastery build requires a half decent rotation, but for your rotation to be THAT bad where avoidance > mastery in terms of damage smoothing, you really must be sitting at your desk whilst your computer is busy in Afghanistan. Within reasonable levels of rotational mishaps, Mastery > Haste but if you can get it perfect then you have the choice between the 2 builds as they are equal, just depends what extra perk you want.
    I think you pulled to much out of my post. I was referring to the hypothetical situation were a person is perrty much as you said, drooling on his keyboard and is virutally afk. Considering what I have seen from some players in MoP, this is not that uncommon. The problem is that the damge smoothening in mastery build is coming alot from SotR and not from the block. Mastery is a very active mitigation build, and to be completely honest, yes it would take alot to make dodge/parry superior to mastery, however it would not take much to make a stamina + dodge/parry build superior since that build is not really about damage smoothening, rather max TDR and having enough HP pool to survive the hits you take.

    Now given this is based on the basis that you have basically 0 clue what you are doing, but this is still I very real situation.
    If you are simply missing a few buttons here and there then yes, mastery could potentionally be better. However not to the extent that most people claim. It is still a very active mitigation build.

  11. #471
    The "mouth-breathing droolers" won't be reading a guide anyway, because they are either convinced they are the best player in the world, or they really couldn't care less about playing badly.
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  12. #472
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    I don't understand how the 'messing up the rotation' argument can be approached with any seriousness. Most players will pre-emptively mash their keys in order to achieve the best results for their rotation. While Kripp has lost his touch, he showed in Wrath that his SS was bind to both a well mashed key and to his scroll which he'd roll simultaneously. That is an extreme, but I really believe that there is nothing that changes in the rotation, even at ~30% haste. It's no worse than if heroism was up, where the base line haste is 44% through the buffs.

    So the priority is identical and any player above the 30% percentile will be queuing their spells to some degree. As I see it there should be no difference in knowledge required to use either set based on that.

    I'm sure players exist that struggle to the point where holding a priority of spells will just cause them to break down under any pressure. But if you want to cater to those people then recommend the dodge/parry set up for that audience.

    To me suggesting one set over another based on personal skill is inherently flawed. I once knew a player who, when realising that her dps was heavily lackluster, decided that rather than learn her class she was better to just change her character's race.

    Active mitigation will always revolve around skill and if you're going to have a discussion about how to help those players, concentrating on better ways to educate uninformed players will triumph over arguing over which set is better to shove in their faces in lure of letting them make a decision.

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  13. #473
    Banned rawhammer's Avatar
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    so we're all agreed that the spirit build is better? good

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    so we're all agreed that the spirit build is better? good
    Personally I believe spell pen is better as long as you can maintain a good rotation.

  15. #475
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    I believe that {◕ ◡ ◕}
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    Oh shut the fuck up you spack cunt.

  16. #476
    Follow-up on the spell haste and Sacred Shield discussion, quoted from my paladin tanking guide on TankSpot.com:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie@TankSpot
    Sacred Shield works like a HoT spell, in that Haste (or rather, Spell Haste) reduces the time between applications of the absorb shield. This means that we can get more absorbs out of a single cast of Sacred Shield, making it a very potent spell indeed. Because Sacred Shield scales with Spell Haste, it also scales with the 10% Spell Haste from Seal of Insight, and the 5% Spell Haste from Moonkin Aura, Darkness and Elemental Oath.

    Sacred Shield grants, when naked and without buffs, 5 shields of 6 second duration and has a standard duration of 30 seconds. It grants an extra shield at the following amounts of Spell Haste:

    10%
    30%
    50%
    70%
    90%
    and every 20% there-after.

    10% Haste is granted by Seal of Insight alone, so you will always get a 6th absorb out of Sacred Shield, even without a single point of haste rating on your gear. In essence, this means that if you get a short-term haste buff, be it a trinket use, bloodlust or an encounter buff, you should definitely think about refreshing Sacred Shield before that buff drops off. Likewise, if you get a negative haste effect, such as Curse of Tongues, you should aim to replace the Sacred Shield when it is convenient to, as this will make you lose ticks.

    You can find a link to the maths behind SS haste scaling (and thus any other over-time effect) linked here
    Credit for the maths goes to Theck, we had an exchange of private messages last night on the topic. The contents of the PM is linked at the end of the quote.
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  17. #477
    The Lightbringer TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivin View Post
    As far as I'm aware, both Holy Prism and Execution Sentence generate threat. The only reason Light's Hammer doesn't is because it's not actually you doing it--the spell summons a totem that generates the damage/healing effects, so all of the threat goes to the totem.
    Light's Hammer does generate threat from what I can recall of every time I've used it to pick up mobs, it generates threat the same way shaman totems do now which directs the threat at the owner rather than the actual totem.
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  18. #478
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    I'll read all this stuff later and act accordingly. I had a formal dinner last night, woke up this morning wearing a bow tie and nothing else. I need to put the pieces together and work out wtf happened and then go to a 4 hour labs session >.<
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    Oh shut the fuck up you spack cunt.

  19. #479
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Light's Hammer does generate threat from what I can recall of every time I've used it to pick up mobs, it generates threat the same way shaman totems do now which directs the threat at the owner rather than the actual totem.
    When did they change shaman totems to redirect threat to the shaman? Last time I played my shaman was 4.2, and they didn't redirect then. They do generate their own threat, but I've never heard that totems were given a threat redirect. o.O

  20. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivin View Post
    When did they change shaman totems to redirect threat to the shaman? Last time I played my shaman was 4.2, and they didn't redirect then. They do generate their own threat, but I've never heard that totems were given a threat redirect. o.O
    Guildmate just tested it out - ishe says it works slightly differently now. If you pull a whole group of mob (just pulling without attacking) and drop a totem, mobs will attack the shaman and ignore the totem. However, if a mob paths into a totem without aggroing into the shaman, they will attack the totem.

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