1. #5121
    Paladin tank dps is by far the lowest until you stack crit with amplification trinkets. If you are using crit with amplification trinkets and possible dps cloak/gem aswell it can for sure be competitive with other tank classes. However as you said it sounds like you do not go for any crit, in which case the warrior should kick your ass.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #5122
    You're making a fallacy from the get go by comparing yourself to him. At the very, very least you'd want to compare him to his peers on raidbots (all parses, not top 100), not to other classes. And that by itself is imperfect for various reasons.

    80k on Malk is so low that I'm going to assume it is an aberration; you said yourself that usually you're much closer on the meters.

    Unless his low dps is holding your raid team back, which I very doubt doing 25s (and possibly NMs), I wouldn't bring it up. If you were to make an issue out of it, which I don't recommend, you'd have a better time putting logs here for us to see.
    Last edited by trystero; 2014-04-25 at 01:02 AM.

  3. #5123
    Thank you for the quick response. It is not hurting the raid team at all, I was just looking for what was said. Where do paladin tanks as a whole compare to other tanks, specifically warriors like myself. With that information I won't both looking at our logs more closely or anything because it isn't detrimental and I will just have to check my min/max obsession.

  4. #5124
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You died to /sit? :O
    That was like once out of uhm hundreds of Lei Shen attempts and right after the pull ~
    Last edited by Nillo; 2014-04-25 at 02:25 PM.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  5. #5125
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazel View Post
    I never died to sit, but that first melee swing after soaking Decapitate with ardent defender... sigh...
    There there
    /pat

    and hmmm, trying to figure out, how i can take a heroic BBoY for myself w/o our casters leading a mutiny.

  6. #5126
    The 10 man I am in finally made it to heroic Thok with plenty of time to get some pulls on it tonight, and we have kind of hit a wall phase 1 goes off without a hitch most of the time. We are using 3 healers. I am using 4 piece, double amp, crit build, and the DPS cloak. In addition, my talents are clemency for double bop, DP(thinking about switching to HA), and LH for the heals, and here is what I am doing for phase 1:
    I take the first 4 stacks.
    LH into the group around 10 when my vengeance is at its peak.
    1st bop at 12
    2nd bop at 15
    DA at 20.
    We only got about 5 pulls on it last night before we called it but this strategy had us consistently pushing 28-30 stacks and had him around 60% health. Phase 2 with the bats seems to kill us because they don't go down fast enough. I was letting the other tank, a druid, get 1 stack and take the bats while I held the boss, but when everyone should start stacking up and trying to push phase 2 around 10 accelerations the bats just start destroying people. In y'alls experience do y'all tank the boss or the bats in phase 2? Also, if you have any other advice for the encounter it would be greatly appreciated.

  7. #5127
    Herald of the Titans PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zanzbar View Post
    The 10 man I am in finally made it to heroic Thok with plenty of time to get some pulls on it tonight, and we have kind of hit a wall phase 1 goes off without a hitch most of the time. We are using 3 healers. I am using 4 piece, double amp, crit build, and the DPS cloak. In addition, my talents are clemency for double bop, DP(thinking about switching to HA), and LH for the heals, and here is what I am doing for phase 1:
    I take the first 4 stacks.
    LH into the group around 10 when my vengeance is at its peak.
    1st bop at 12
    2nd bop at 15
    DA at 20.
    We only got about 5 pulls on it last night before we called it but this strategy had us consistently pushing 28-30 stacks and had him around 60% health. Phase 2 with the bats seems to kill us because they don't go down fast enough. I was letting the other tank, a druid, get 1 stack and take the bats while I held the boss, but when everyone should start stacking up and trying to push phase 2 around 10 accelerations the bats just start destroying people. In y'alls experience do y'all tank the boss or the bats in phase 2? Also, if you have any other advice for the encounter it would be greatly appreciated.
    The way you're doing it is the most efficient if you 2-tank - we have terrible snap AoE and the adds WILL kill someone before you get them all under control if you do not have a hunter that can MD to you. I wonder why you're dying to the bats, though, if you're comfortably making it to 28-30 stacks in P1 - you're either using every single CD you have in P1, and your healers' output outside of healer CDs is awful, or your healers are forgetting to dispel the debuff from the bats - we usually have our Shadow Priests mass dispel on CD in that phase.

    Also make sure that your DPS understand that the bats are their number 1 priority in that phase. They should switch to full-out AoE on them so you can end that phase quickly and do the Frost phase, which is essentially a repeat of P1.

  8. #5128
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    The way you're doing it is the most efficient if you 2-tank - we have terrible snap AoE and the adds WILL kill someone before you get them all under control if you do not have a hunter that can MD to you.
    I wouldn't say that; the bats come out in such a way that you can get them under control quickly, certainly before someone's killed. And my hunters are lazy SOBs and never MD to me. Initially three come out in a small pack, perfect for Avenger's Shield. After that it's a matter of paying attention to the subsequent pack and scooping it with self-targeted Holy Prism/Shield. So you're certainly capable of doing adds if you want OP; I do it whenever I tank the boss.

    Without logs it's hard to say definitively what is going wrong, but at this point I wouldn't worry about it. Your healers are probably learning to manage the damage intake. Five pulls is nothing, and it's good that you made it to P2 after so few pulls. If bats remain a problem, then you can save pots/CDs and maybe even lust for them (that is what we did at first). You can also BoP a healer when bats come out provided you're not the lone paladin.

  9. #5129
    You should have a big enough EF running at that point that they flock straight to you anyway.
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  10. #5130
    the way they wanted to do it was that I would tank the boss, and the other tank took care of the bats kind of like a mini version of tortos. We have 2 hunters MDing to the other tank so aggro is not the issue they just aren't dying fast enough so we are pushing too many instances of acceleration trying to get the bats down, and by the time they are down we are sitting around 12 so people just start getting blown up. I guess the other tank just gets overwhelmed and dies. I figure the druid would be a better aoe cleave type on the bats. Are y'all solo tanking this fight because it seems like the strat they want to go over with just leaves the off tank being a dps or healing loss.

  11. #5131
    Ya I've solo tanked it since like week 5 of heroics being out. Its quite easy all you need to do is Hammer of Righteous off boss as they fly through him and they all come to you. Worst case a healer has threat and I can see that on my frames before they even get near the boss and just salve them. Once you have them all have melee right after the 2nd breath run in front of boss aoe for 5 sec then go back to their spot. We were able to finish all the bats off around 7-8 stacks on boss.

    If you have a lot of ranged it shouldnt be an issue... on progression we had fury war, combat rogue, hance shaman, Sv hunter, aff lock and it wasnt really that bad I was like 15% of the dmg on them as well and I did not have avenger shield bounce i glyphed for single target, but I did use DPS cloak even on first kill mainly because Thok isn't really dangerous imo once Holy Avenger is up you just can't die on that and by the time it falls you phased it to a kite phase. If you solo tank you have so much veng that you really need to make it single target for the DPS just to kill the fight faster.

    Also, if you are getting him to 60% with 2 tanks on first door just single tank and do Frost first. With that DPS you should(if you can do 25-28 stacks in frost too) kill it during the kite phase after frost or open fire and he would be at sub 10%.

  12. #5132
    I am gonna chime in my Unpopular Opinion Puffin here and say that I feel like there is no benefit to solo tanking this fight on progression.
    I think having two tanks really help a lot with the reliability on this boss and the damage output is not changed that much if your tanks play well.

    The only way I see it could possibly be benefitial is if you can swap out a DK tank for a dps or healer with good raid cds. I would never have one of the tank go off-spec dps for progression on that fight.

    But hey, that is just me.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #5133
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazel View Post
    Yes, drop dps or healer when you can solo tank the fight (which basically adds another dps to fight) just to 2 tank the fight. Seems legit firefly :P
    We 2 tanked it on progression, simply because a) neither of the tanks had a good enough OS to go dps w/o it being detrimental b) you don't really need to heal tanks (unlike the dps) c) even as OT you can still stand in front and get debuff, so your veng will still be decently high for the majority of the fight.

    Granted i'd still 1 tank if i could pick up an extra healer/dps, but that's because i wouldn't be doing it in 550 ilvl -.-

  14. #5134
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazel View Post
    Yes, drop dps or healer when you can solo tank the fight (which basically adds another dps to fight) just to 2 tank the fight. Seems legit firefly :P
    We found it to really help the healers out. Having to heal 8 people instead of 9 makes a big difference (or 7 instead of 8, damn rogues new tanks).
    Overall it made the fight a lot and a lot smoother. At the gear levels we did it, 1 tanking was impossible, but I am rather sure we would have 2 tanked it even with more gear.

    The dps check is trivial, as long as people stay alive the boss dies. 2 tanks will help you a lot with that, especially if you have tanks that can help the raid out.
    We for example rolled with 2 paladin tanks, our warrior came on his paladin alt. Extra BoP, AM and LH completely trivialised the healing.

    Overall I think having 2 tanks just helps your healers out so much more that it will save you wipes while progressing.

    But yeah, unpopular opinion puffin as I said
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #5135
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazel View Post
    Was in a 2 day raiding guild back then. We 4 healed it, nuff said.
    Yeah, know some people 1 tanked 4 healed it. But that feels like you could just aswell have gone 2 tanks unless your second tank was a DK.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #5136
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazel View Post
    Was in a 2 day raiding guild back then. We 4 healed it, nuff said.
    We 2 healed, so adding +1 person to heal for healers would've been slightly difficult.

    @firefly
    fairly sure that warlocks also take +- no damage.

  17. #5137
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    @firefly
    fairly sure that warlocks also take +- no damage.
    Depends a lot on the scenario. Sometimes they do sometimes they dont.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #5138
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    At the gear levels we did it, 1 tanking was impossible,
    Confused @ this. Paragon 1 tanked it for the WF 10H kill. Sejta went cat, Jhazrun brought his shaman and they three healed w/ shaman-MWer-tree.
    But maybe you're just referring to your gear which was very bad.

    Anyways, no big deal now, sry for being the correction police, just wanted to note that it was always 1 tankable.
    Last edited by Kitmajere; 2014-04-27 at 02:37 AM.

  19. #5139
    Not to speak for him but FF did have a very low ilvl on H Siege progression, something like 545 on SC.

  20. #5140
    Yea, I remember him mentioning that several times. He just said "we" not "I". I'll edit my post though to reflect that.

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