[MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

[Deleted]

Askmrrobot works, it is just that their stat weigths are horrible and needs to be adjusted after personal prefference. Yet I never use those sites myself, so I am not an expert on them

[MerinPally]

I've always felt 10 million times more comfortable using my own head, calculator and pen to work these things out, but then I don't go that detailed in which case I'd use Matlab but I tend to stick to a lot of ingame testing rather than theoretical - I'd go mathematical on the numbers I obtained myself rather than crunching formulae. It's probably a factor of having too much spare time than anything else but oh how things have changed :<

[darkchief]

does anyone have macros i could use in 10 man raids? i use to use them n want to try some macros in MoP

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

does anyone have macros i could use in 10 man raids? i use to use them n want to try some macros in MoP

What kind of thing do you want those macros to do?

[darkchief]

give me some options i dont know any macros like what macros are people using??

[Deleted]

give me some options i dont know any macros like what macros are people using??

If you have no idea what you want to use macros for, there will most likely be no point in using macros for you.

[MerinPally]

give me some options i dont know any macros like what macros are people using??

You seem to be under the impression that macros make things better... they don't necessarily. They can make some things easier and more efficient IF THAT IS HOW YOU PRACTICE PLAYING. We can't just give someone a macro and say "use it, it'll make things easier" because it won't if you don't know how to use it or even why you want to use it.

Macros won't play the game for you, it's just a way of binding 2+ useful functions together in a way that you find things easier to play with. For example, I've always had Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous in a modifier macro, ever since the cataclysm patch came at the end of WOTLK. This allowed me to press 2 to hit Crusader Strike, or alt-2 to use Hammer of the Righteous. I found this more beneficial for me and my style, whereas I know plenty of people who find it easier to use 2 seperate buttons.

Another example is that for my immunity bubble, I have the cancelaura effect bound into the same button so that 1 press activates it and another cancels it. This works for me because for that particular spell I know that when I hit it, I will be able to calmly hit it ONCE as opposed to mashing it like I do instinctively with pretty every other button >.> However I know lots of others who would be mashing bubble to a ridiculous extent when they use it, so my macro would be shit for them as they'd auto cancel it - I know I won't cock it up but those guys would.

Macros are a personal thing, we can list our macros if you really want but it'd be a pointless endeavour as you could try them all but whether they'd sink in is a different matter. The best advice I can give you is to think what you reckon you could streamline, or have 2 buttons that are similar (such as things I've mentioned, cancel aura macros and the like) and see if you would find it easier to combine them rather than having seperate buttons with very different binds. This way you can have similar binds or maybe the same one just with a modifier! Also saves toolbar space, letting you shrink them allowing more screenspace

[Elathi]

give me some options i dont know any macros like what macros are people using??

Here are some I use...

Aforementioned macro to use Divine Shield and cancel it when/if needed with one button:

/cancelaura Divine Shield
/cast Divine Shield

Make sure the cancelaura command is the first one. This macro is mostly used to have Divine Shield clear a debuff on you, but immediately remove the shield so you can keep tanking. But don't mash it if you want to keep the shield up.

Mouseover macros for relevant things:

/cast [@mouseover]Word of Glory

Just to save you a click, but you have to hover the cursor over a person or that person's monitor (target/focus frame, Grid, or other implementation of showing party members). Replace Word of Glory with Flash of Light, Lay on Hands, Hand of Protection/Sacrifice/Salvation/Purity/Freedom, and Cleanse for other macros if desired.

Addition to the above that I use for Sacred Shield:

/cast [@mouseover,exists,noharm][@player]Sacred Shield

Allows you to not have to hover over yourself each time you want to refresh Sacred Shield, and still allows you to cast it on others if desired.

Another variation of the above, for the relevant talents in the sixth tier:

/cast [@mouseover,exists,noharm][@target]Execution Sentence

Replace Execution Sentence with Holy Prism if desired. This'll cast it on any friendly target you have your cursor over, or on your target if you're not moused over someone.

Probably not worth much, but macros on abilities that don't initiate autoattack themselves:

/startattack
/cast Holy Wrath

Replace Holy Wrath with Hammer of Wrath, Consecration, or Avenger's Shield for other macros if desired.

Have one that clears a couple hands:

/cancelaura Hand of Salvation
/cancelaura Hand of Protection

Especially now that Hand of Salvation can be used to completely wipe threat for its duration again. Any other buffs you deem worthy could be added in the same manner.

Enhancing a cooldown with a trinket:

/use 13
/cast Holy Avenger

The use 13 means it activates your first trinket's secondary ability if it has one, mine at the moment being Lao-Chin's Liquid Courage, gives HA a bit more of a mitigation percentage in addition to the full uptime on SotR. Replace 13 with 14 if you want to use your second trinket instead, or replace Holy Avenger with Avenging Wrath if specced into Sanctified Wrath if desired.

[Deleted]

Enhancing a cooldown with a trinket:

/use 13
/cast Holy Avenger

The use 13 means it activates your first trinket's secondary ability if it has one, mine at the moment being Lao-Chin's Liquid Courage, gives HA a bit more of a mitigation percentage in addition to the full uptime on SotR. Replace 13 with 14 if you want to use your second trinket instead, or replace Holy Avenger with Avenging Wrath if specced into Sanctified Wrath if desired.

Stacking defensive cooldowns isn't optimal.

[Elathi]

As with many things regarding tanking, you can't really say that with absolute certainty (heroic Madness of Deathwing comes to mind as an exception to that rule). Additionally, I'm kind of a dummy and would normally forget to use my trinkets anyway unless it's something with a highly noticeable and specifically used effect like Mirror of Broken Images.

[Deleted]

As with many things regarding tanking, you can't really say that with absolute certainty (heroic Madness of Deathwing comes to mind as an exception to that rule). Additionally, I'm kind of a dummy and would normally forget to use my trinkets anyway unless it's something with a highly noticeable and specifically used effect like Mirror of Broken Images.

In that case it is better for you, but again, not at all optimal.

[MerinPally]

As with many things regarding tanking, you can't really say that with absolute certainty (heroic Madness of Deathwing comes to mind as an exception to that rule). Additionally, I'm kind of a dummy and would normally forget to use my trinkets anyway unless it's something with a highly noticeable and specifically used effect like Mirror of Broken Images.

We can say it's optimal because it can be mathematically proven. Heroic madness isn't an example of cd stacking being optimal, it's an example of how it can sometimes be necessary in the case of adverse circumstances.

However unless you're really going for high end progress it shouldn't matter too much if you just need to jog your memory or whatever ^^

[Kanadei]

Yeah not to be called out as a lazy paladin but...

For the times when I double up using Figurine and Courage I macro both of them.

I'm already juggling about 5 defensive cooldowns, so two 1 minute cooldown trinkets is just a lot of work for normal modes where I probably shouldn't be dying anyway.

I keep on Sacred Shield and Consecrate so I can avoid popping them where I really have to (ie. when I'm not the active tank, like Feng, Garajal, Blade Lord) but otherwise I much prefer popping them twice as much instead of saving them for when nothing else is going on.

[Elathi]

Heroic madness isn't an example of cd stacking being optimal, it's an example of how it can sometimes be necessary

Didn't say it was optimal, said it was an exception to the rule.

We can say it's optimal because it can be mathematically proven.

There are two arguments that can be made against me as to why (regarding overlapping the two cooldowns I listed being bad), and one of them is correct. I honestly want to see if you get it right. :P

[Deleted]

So first you were wrong and now you act like you intentionally were wrong to test MerinPally? Just... no.

And yep, what Choice said is completely right. If you want a bit less to monitor for a slight cost in damage reduction, go ahead and macro them to any abilities you wish. I know I can handle it, so I won't. :P

[Elathi]

No one's really been proven wrong yet. I'm perfectly fine with being wrong (especially as a pessimist :P). I'm well aware I likely play slightly suboptimally to make up for my shortcomings. But there were no counterarguments given to me, just the stating of "you're wrong". No harm in asking for more elaboration from the other person's point of view.

Guess it's just that, even if one side is wrong, it doesn't automatically mean the other side is right. I just kinda want to see if it is.

My statement also wasn't meant to revoke or change the meaning of the post before it, either.

[MerinPally]

Having read this back it's all a pile of shite anyway as the word "optimal" in my post shouldn't have been there as I misread and jumbled up the quote and the reply on the previous page, so it wasn't so much as a push and a challenge but more of a moment of complete retardation on my part

There was a counterargument given to your macroing technique and that was the maths side of it which is the most important one. Another one would be not having such a large number of buttons to press to reduce things at certain times as you're combining them, or should something strange happen you're less equipped to deal with it (that one wasn't mentioned). However, as I mentioned and Choice mentioned, if for you it's easier to just macro it as you're not pushing for really high end stuff then it does not matter at all and you'll be fine doing whatever. It is slightly suboptimal compared to proper usage of all the extra buttons but then if otherwise you'd never press them, it's obviously far superior to macro them - something to practice maybe?

[Elathi]

There was a counterargument given to your macroing technique and that was the maths side of it which is the most important one.

I acknowledge that, and that's fine, but no math was actually put forth. "There's some out there somewhere" or "we can prove it but we aren't going to" I guess isn't terribly satisfying, admittedly. And somewhat understandable, I suppose, considering the rather low difference in theoretical yield between the different sides.

Ignoring for a bit a use of a macro, and just debating on the original issue of why pairing Holy Avenger and Lao-Chin's Liquid Courage is bad:

To simplify, the trinket's activation accounts for a theoretical slightly over 4% less physical damage taken overall for its duration. If used during Holy Avenger, the trinket's effectiveness goes to slightly over 7% for its duration, and 6% thereafter for however long you manage to keep the same SotR buff going.

The amount of scenarios "something strange happening" can cover is pretty vast. I can't think of a time the use of this trinket, considering its suspected magnitude, could make enough of an impact to change the course of things, but I suppose a situation could still exist.

Lao-Chin's has a one minute cooldown and HA has a two minute cooldown, so pairing them doesn't automatically mean the former couldn't ever be used elsewhere. Obviously, of course, there's still a risk of it not being available for this alleged time of when you need it.

Edit - Choice's suggestion is fine, but it's also vulnerable to potentially having the trinket used when you're not tanking anything.

[Deleted]

A random train of thought from me after reading this trinket discussion.

The thing with tanking is that there is hard to prove something right and wrong. Different strategies in talents, gearing and CD usage works different in different occations for different players. What works best for a specific situation, or what generally works best in the most situations can however most often be logically concluded.

Tanking breaks down into 4 main categories with some sub categories. Total damage reduction, damage smoothening, something in between both and on demand damage reduction.

Effective health, should maybe also be included as a fifth of the major categories.

Some of the more important sub categories include, threat, dps, hps. Tanking is all about finding a balance of what works for you, and the basics is that some things works better on different fights. Also very dependant on what raid group, raid size and playstyle you yourself have. Though also highly depends on your gear and skill. Generally spoken

Most people do not realise which stat works for which categories, and for which fights they are good for. This could be the topic of an entire blog post to go in-depth in stats.

Now, most tanking cooldowns falls into the categories of on demand damage reduction and total damage reduction and on some fights damage smoothening. Basically on any fight where there is a huge predictable spike incoming, cooldowns work for damage smoothening, on fights where the damage is more static, cooldowns work for total damage reduction and on demand damage reduction.

Damage smoothening and on demand damage reduction can be very similar in a lot of cases. Since getting an on demand damage reduction naturally smooths out spikes if used properly, but still some things differ and they do not deserve to be joined under to same category.

Now, lets take a look at HA and trinkets and see what they do.

HA main purpose is to provide on-demand damage reduction. If the fight have a predictable physical damage spike every 2 or so minutes ( Hello will of the emperor ), it also provide great damage smoothening. Naturally as all cooldowns it provides total damage reduction, however this is not the main goal of this ability. As long as there is some point in a fight where you will take noticably more physical damage than the normal part of the fight, or for some reason you want to reduce the damage taken at a specific point, the TDR can almost be ignored as the other factors are more important.

Now lets take a look at trinkets. Lets first look at a trinket like the DMC trinket that provides dodge on cooldown.
First we need to place dodge into the categories it fits into. Does dodge provide on-demand damage reduction? No, none whatsoever. Dodge is completely RNG and it is very likely that the increased dodge gives you 0 dodges and it can also let you dodge 100% of the attacks for the duration.
Does it provide damage smoothening? No. Same reasoning as above. Dodge do however provide a great deal of TDR, even though very possibly you will not dodge a single extra attack for the duration, you can still dodge several the next time you use it, and overall it will reduce damage taken.

So we have concluded that the main use for the dodge trinket is TDR, purely throughput. So a dodge trinket should really be used on cooldown assuming you have something actually hitting you. There are some exceptions to this rule. Mainly when you have a lot of mobs hitting you at the same time, which reduces the RNG of dodge. Basically, if you have 1 mob hitting for 200k per attack or 20 mobs hitting for 10k per attack, dodge is alot more useful in the second situation.
So if you are using a dodge trinket, there is no logic in macroing it together with HA, since HA effectively counter acts the TDR of the dodge trinket. ( You will me mitigating the damage either way so the dodges are less valuable ). Naturally, there are always exceptions to the rules, but this is more of a general conclusion, not an absolute one. Still some times it is worth stacking CDs like a dodge use and HA. Though very very very rare.

Now, lets say that you got a mastery use trinket instead. What is the point of the mastery trinket. Okay, lets figure out what mastery gives us.
First, lets break mastery into its components.

The BoG part naturally gives us healing on demand. This is a very situational use, and is very rarely used, however sometimes useful. Though, this is more important on passive mastery than trinket mastery. Not like you are going to pop a mastery trinket to get a higher heal with WoG.

The block part. Provides a bit of damage smoothening and TDR. No on demand damage reduction as you can not choose when to block and not. However, since block still is RNG, it is hard to call it true damage smoothening as the damage reduction is not entirely static. One thing that again is my personal opinion is that the differs depending if it is static mastery or on-use / proc mastery. On static mastery the damage smoothening is much more valid than on-use/proc mastery. The biggest part of the block, especially on-use/proc is still the TDR.

The last part, improved SotR. Does it give damage smoothening? No not at all, the damage is already being reduced, you are simply reducing it more. That is not smoothening, that is on-demand damage reduction and TDR. As said before though, on-demand damage reduction can still be damage smoothening, on fights where you take a predictable spike. This part does however work great with HA. Together with HA a mastery trinket/proc provides more on-demand damge reduction and more TDR. As you get to use more SotR during HA, you get more seconds of the increased damage reduction if used together with HA.

So now we find ourselves in a pickle, as the different components work differently, we need to determine which is the most important one. Can we truely say which one is more important? No, we can not determine a true winner as it all depends on the boss fight. On a boss fight where you take static damage, TDR naturally wins out. However on a fight where the damage is predictable, a mastery trinket is very strong together with HA. As you will increase your on-demand damage reduction. Also, again my personal opinon, though most fights in this tier are found under the category where on-demand damage reduction is alot better than TDR.

So, is macroing a mastery trinket together with HA wrong? Well yes, to use your trinket optimally it should not be macroed on some fights, however on a good chunk of the fights, the mastery trinket is used very well with HA. The trinket should still be used every 1 minute alone as HA is on 2 min CD and the trinket on 1 min. That trinket use would be more for TDR throughput.

Still, the trinket does not really provide enough on-demand damage reduction to make it a great CD on its own and we got other cds to cover that. I believe that mastery trinkets are best used paired with HA simply because how they work together. Still, as with most cases there is no right and wrong for tanking. Just simply some things that works better on most boss fights and for most players. Some fights and players have different niches that works best for themselves. It is up to you to find your niche.

This is more of a, what works for the average player on the average fights. Some players will disagree with this, and they can be entirely correct for their own situation. Kudos for you for realising that something that is out of the standard works better for you in your situation. This does not however mean that it works better for everyone else.

Ideally for the mastery trinket.

Used with HA - Damage smoothening >>> TDR
1 min later used alone - TDR >>> Damage smoothening
1 min later used with HA - Damage smoothening >>>TDR
1 min later used alone - TDR >>> Damage smoothening

Now of course, this is not entirely true as most fights wants to you save CDs for specific points of the fight, but you get the jest.

I realised I derailed alot here. But I was kinda bored and wanted something to write so.

[Deleted]

The only thing there is to it is combining the trinket with HA is overkill (unless you're tanking something like Grand Empress's adds) and you won't notice a balls of a difference in your survivability (neither will your healers) if you use it with HA constantly on most of the fights.

I fail to see how using it with HA goes for any "damage smoothening". HA itself smoothens damage intake so much that few percent won't do anything there. If you'd use it as a "candy cooldown" instead, popping it when tanking, when other cooldowns aren't available, you'd be smoothing your damage intake more than pairing it up with HA.

Ehh.