1. #581
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elathi View Post
    As with many things regarding tanking, you can't really say that with absolute certainty (heroic Madness of Deathwing comes to mind as an exception to that rule). Additionally, I'm kind of a dummy and would normally forget to use my trinkets anyway unless it's something with a highly noticeable and specifically used effect like Mirror of Broken Images.
    We can say it's optimal because it can be mathematically proven. Heroic madness isn't an example of cd stacking being optimal, it's an example of how it can sometimes be necessary in the case of adverse circumstances.

    However unless you're really going for high end progress it shouldn't matter too much if you just need to jog your memory or whatever ^^
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    Oh shut the fuck up you spack cunt.

  2. #582
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    Trinkets like the DMC are all about output, you'll rarely see one used as a resort for saving your life and as such throughput with such trinkets should be preferable. I don't run any macros like that to ensure it's uptime as I have no issue using and maintaining it, but if you find yourself forgetting it you can macro it to CS and you'd be better off than missing ~4 minutes worth of uses.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 02:47 AM ----------

    For something like the Jade Warlord Figurine though, involving Mastery I'd say it requires more management because of the snap shot element, although that may just be the elitist in me talking.

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  3. #583
    Yeah not to be called out as a lazy paladin but...

    For the times when I double up using Figurine and Courage I macro both of them.

    I'm already juggling about 5 defensive cooldowns, so two 1 minute cooldown trinkets is just a lot of work for normal modes where I probably shouldn't be dying anyway.

    I keep on Sacred Shield and Consecrate so I can avoid popping them where I really have to (ie. when I'm not the active tank, like Feng, Garajal, Blade Lord) but otherwise I much prefer popping them twice as much instead of saving them for when nothing else is going on.

  4. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Heroic madness isn't an example of cd stacking being optimal, it's an example of how it can sometimes be necessary
    Didn't say it was optimal, said it was an exception to the rule.

    We can say it's optimal because it can be mathematically proven.
    There are two arguments that can be made against me as to why (regarding overlapping the two cooldowns I listed being bad), and one of them is correct. I honestly want to see if you get it right. :P
    Last edited by Elathi; 2012-12-03 at 07:34 AM.

  5. #585
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    So first you were wrong and now you act like you intentionally were wrong to test MerinPally? Just... no.

    And yep, what Choice said is completely right. If you want a bit less to monitor for a slight cost in damage reduction, go ahead and macro them to any abilities you wish. I know I can handle it, so I won't. :P

  6. #586
    No one's really been proven wrong yet. I'm perfectly fine with being wrong (especially as a pessimist :P). I'm well aware I likely play slightly suboptimally to make up for my shortcomings. But there were no counterarguments given to me, just the stating of "you're wrong". No harm in asking for more elaboration from the other person's point of view.

    Guess it's just that, even if one side is wrong, it doesn't automatically mean the other side is right. I just kinda want to see if it is.

    My statement also wasn't meant to revoke or change the meaning of the post before it, either.
    Last edited by Elathi; 2012-12-03 at 07:37 PM.

  7. #587
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Having read this back it's all a pile of shite anyway as the word "optimal" in my post shouldn't have been there as I misread and jumbled up the quote and the reply on the previous page, so it wasn't so much as a push and a challenge but more of a moment of complete retardation on my part

    There was a counterargument given to your macroing technique and that was the maths side of it which is the most important one. Another one would be not having such a large number of buttons to press to reduce things at certain times as you're combining them, or should something strange happen you're less equipped to deal with it (that one wasn't mentioned). However, as I mentioned and Choice mentioned, if for you it's easier to just macro it as you're not pushing for really high end stuff then it does not matter at all and you'll be fine doing whatever. It is slightly suboptimal compared to proper usage of all the extra buttons but then if otherwise you'd never press them, it's obviously far superior to macro them - something to practice maybe?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Oh shut the fuck up you spack cunt.

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    There was a counterargument given to your macroing technique and that was the maths side of it which is the most important one.
    I acknowledge that, and that's fine, but no math was actually put forth. "There's some out there somewhere" or "we can prove it but we aren't going to" I guess isn't terribly satisfying, admittedly. And somewhat understandable, I suppose, considering the rather low difference in theoretical yield between the different sides.

    Ignoring for a bit a use of a macro, and just debating on the original issue of why pairing Holy Avenger and Lao-Chin's Liquid Courage is bad:

    To simplify, the trinket's activation accounts for a theoretical slightly over 4% less physical damage taken overall for its duration. If used during Holy Avenger, the trinket's effectiveness goes to slightly over 7% for its duration, and 6% thereafter for however long you manage to keep the same SotR buff going.

    The amount of scenarios "something strange happening" can cover is pretty vast. I can't think of a time the use of this trinket, considering its suspected magnitude, could make enough of an impact to change the course of things, but I suppose a situation could still exist.

    Lao-Chin's has a one minute cooldown and HA has a two minute cooldown, so pairing them doesn't automatically mean the former couldn't ever be used elsewhere. Obviously, of course, there's still a risk of it not being available for this alleged time of when you need it.

    Edit - Choice's suggestion is fine, but it's also vulnerable to potentially having the trinket used when you're not tanking anything.
    Last edited by Elathi; 2012-12-04 at 05:48 AM.

  9. #589
    A random train of thought from me after reading this trinket discussion.

    The thing with tanking is that there is hard to prove something right and wrong. Different strategies in talents, gearing and CD usage works different in different occations for different players. What works best for a specific situation, or what generally works best in the most situations can however most often be logically concluded.

    Tanking breaks down into 4 main categories with some sub categories. Total damage reduction, damage smoothening, something in between both and on demand damage reduction.

    Effective health, should maybe also be included as a fifth of the major categories.

    Some of the more important sub categories include, threat, dps, hps. Tanking is all about finding a balance of what works for you, and the basics is that some things works better on different fights. Also very dependant on what raid group, raid size and playstyle you yourself have. Though also highly depends on your gear and skill. Generally spoken

    Most people do not realise which stat works for which categories, and for which fights they are good for. This could be the topic of an entire blog post to go in-depth in stats.

    Now, most tanking cooldowns falls into the categories of on demand damage reduction and total damage reduction and on some fights damage smoothening. Basically on any fight where there is a huge predictable spike incoming, cooldowns work for damage smoothening, on fights where the damage is more static, cooldowns work for total damage reduction and on demand damage reduction.

    Damage smoothening and on demand damage reduction can be very similar in a lot of cases. Since getting an on demand damage reduction naturally smooths out spikes if used properly, but still some things differ and they do not deserve to be joined under to same category.

    Now, lets take a look at HA and trinkets and see what they do.

    HA main purpose is to provide on-demand damage reduction. If the fight have a predictable physical damage spike every 2 or so minutes ( Hello will of the emperor ), it also provide great damage smoothening. Naturally as all cooldowns it provides total damage reduction, however this is not the main goal of this ability. As long as there is some point in a fight where you will take noticably more physical damage than the normal part of the fight, or for some reason you want to reduce the damage taken at a specific point, the TDR can almost be ignored as the other factors are more important.

    Now lets take a look at trinkets. Lets first look at a trinket like the DMC trinket that provides dodge on cooldown.
    First we need to place dodge into the categories it fits into. Does dodge provide on-demand damage reduction? No, none whatsoever. Dodge is completely RNG and it is very likely that the increased dodge gives you 0 dodges and it can also let you dodge 100% of the attacks for the duration.
    Does it provide damage smoothening? No. Same reasoning as above. Dodge do however provide a great deal of TDR, even though very possibly you will not dodge a single extra attack for the duration, you can still dodge several the next time you use it, and overall it will reduce damage taken.

    So we have concluded that the main use for the dodge trinket is TDR, purely throughput. So a dodge trinket should really be used on cooldown assuming you have something actually hitting you. There are some exceptions to this rule. Mainly when you have a lot of mobs hitting you at the same time, which reduces the RNG of dodge. Basically, if you have 1 mob hitting for 200k per attack or 20 mobs hitting for 10k per attack, dodge is alot more useful in the second situation.
    So if you are using a dodge trinket, there is no logic in macroing it together with HA, since HA effectively counter acts the TDR of the dodge trinket. ( You will me mitigating the damage either way so the dodges are less valuable ). Naturally, there are always exceptions to the rules, but this is more of a general conclusion, not an absolute one. Still some times it is worth stacking CDs like a dodge use and HA. Though very very very rare.

    Now, lets say that you got a mastery use trinket instead. What is the point of the mastery trinket. Okay, lets figure out what mastery gives us.
    First, lets break mastery into its components.

    The BoG part naturally gives us healing on demand. This is a very situational use, and is very rarely used, however sometimes useful. Though, this is more important on passive mastery than trinket mastery. Not like you are going to pop a mastery trinket to get a higher heal with WoG.

    The block part. Provides a bit of damage smoothening and TDR. No on demand damage reduction as you can not choose when to block and not. However, since block still is RNG, it is hard to call it true damage smoothening as the damage reduction is not entirely static. One thing that again is my personal opinion is that the differs depending if it is static mastery or on-use / proc mastery. On static mastery the damage smoothening is much more valid than on-use/proc mastery. The biggest part of the block, especially on-use/proc is still the TDR.

    The last part, improved SotR. Does it give damage smoothening? No not at all, the damage is already being reduced, you are simply reducing it more. That is not smoothening, that is on-demand damage reduction and TDR. As said before though, on-demand damage reduction can still be damage smoothening, on fights where you take a predictable spike. This part does however work great with HA. Together with HA a mastery trinket/proc provides more on-demand damge reduction and more TDR. As you get to use more SotR during HA, you get more seconds of the increased damage reduction if used together with HA.

    So now we find ourselves in a pickle, as the different components work differently, we need to determine which is the most important one. Can we truely say which one is more important? No, we can not determine a true winner as it all depends on the boss fight. On a boss fight where you take static damage, TDR naturally wins out. However on a fight where the damage is predictable, a mastery trinket is very strong together with HA. As you will increase your on-demand damage reduction. Also, again my personal opinon, though most fights in this tier are found under the category where on-demand damage reduction is alot better than TDR.

    So, is macroing a mastery trinket together with HA wrong? Well yes, to use your trinket optimally it should not be macroed on some fights, however on a good chunk of the fights, the mastery trinket is used very well with HA. The trinket should still be used every 1 minute alone as HA is on 2 min CD and the trinket on 1 min. That trinket use would be more for TDR throughput.

    Still, the trinket does not really provide enough on-demand damage reduction to make it a great CD on its own and we got other cds to cover that. I believe that mastery trinkets are best used paired with HA simply because how they work together. Still, as with most cases there is no right and wrong for tanking. Just simply some things that works better on most boss fights and for most players. Some fights and players have different niches that works best for themselves. It is up to you to find your niche.

    This is more of a, what works for the average player on the average fights. Some players will disagree with this, and they can be entirely correct for their own situation. Kudos for you for realising that something that is out of the standard works better for you in your situation. This does not however mean that it works better for everyone else.

    Ideally for the mastery trinket.

    Used with HA - Damage smoothening >>> TDR
    1 min later used alone - TDR >>> Damage smoothening
    1 min later used with HA - Damage smoothening >>>TDR
    1 min later used alone - TDR >>> Damage smoothening

    Now of course, this is not entirely true as most fights wants to you save CDs for specific points of the fight, but you get the jest.

    I realised I derailed alot here. But I was kinda bored and wanted something to write so.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2012-12-04 at 05:25 AM.

  10. #590
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    I was kinda bored and wanted something to write so.
    Yeah that seems to be quite a common occurrence lately.

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  11. #591
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    The only thing there is to it is combining the trinket with HA is overkill (unless you're tanking something like Grand Empress's adds) and you won't notice a balls of a difference in your survivability (neither will your healers) if you use it with HA constantly on most of the fights.

    I fail to see how using it with HA goes for any "damage smoothening". HA itself smoothens damage intake so much that few percent won't do anything there. If you'd use it as a "candy cooldown" instead, popping it when tanking, when other cooldowns aren't available, you'd be smoothing your damage intake more than pairing it up with HA.

    Ehh.

  12. #592
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    Aye, the same logic that dictates CD usage with intent to smooth but not necessary optimise damage intake is the same regarding haste as a itemisation concept.

    You might mitigate more by stacking CD's that bounce off each other but then you create damage spikes due to leading periods of extremely low damage into periods of extremely high ones. If your healers had a shred of dignity this shouldn't be in itself an issue. But someone running haste (especially someone championing it) should be able to understand the concept of staggering CD's for the purposes of optimising smoothed intake.

    Using it in the method you show undermines the purpose of buffing your SoTR properly to begin with, and HA as well. I can't name a fight where I use HA (or any CD really) mindless of CD for efficiency. You suffer the blow of not snap shotting SoTR by using Jade Warlord on CD, and you become shit by using HA off CD. I acknowledge that you bring up pooling CD's but realistically your argument has no grounds because there's no scenario where you should be rolling such valuable CD's.

    Should you be looking to use Jade properly you'd always want to wait until you at least have 3 HP to up your usages. In my case I have a 7.5s ramp up for SoTR for two usages (depending on latency, with my Aus shit I'd need to wait for 4 HP), so I increase the value of the trinket dramatically by giving it the additional ramp up for the third use. Haste wise, my ramp up is sim'd at 6.6 so you'd still only get two.

    HA and Jade do have strong synergy and work well together for high intake fights. HA's tie to Mastery has always been very benefiting that way. But your hypothetical dimension in which both are always stacked and have maxed uptime is a rather scary one.

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  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Turvakapsu View Post
    you won't notice a balls of a difference in your survivability (neither will your healers)
    Slight issue being that this logic works against you, too. The trinket popped by itself makes pretty close to no difference whatsoever (even when popped at three or more holy power).

    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    You might mitigate more by stacking CD's that bounce off each other but then you create damage spikes due to leading periods of extremely low damage into periods of extremely high ones.
    It's merely a mastery activated trinket. Its slight misuse isn't going to suddenly turn you down the path of heavy spiking.
    Last edited by Elathi; 2012-12-04 at 10:21 AM.

  14. #594
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elathi View Post
    It's merely a mastery activated trinket. Its slight misuse isn't going to suddenly turn you down the path of heavy spiking.
    Do you understand the concept of optimal a.k.a. the best way / everything matters? You're telling us it is optimal to blow both of them on cooldown, which makes very little sense for the reasons Choice listed above.

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by Turvakapsu View Post
    Do you understand the concept of optimal a.k.a. the best way / everything matters? You're telling us it is optimal to blow both of them on cooldown, which makes very little sense for the reasons Choice listed above.
    In a fight where the damage intake is 100% consistent, blowing them both on cooldown and together actually reduces more damage.
    Naturally blowing HA on cooldown is moronic on 95% of fights.

    I still feel like though the paladins cooldown arsenal is so strong right now. There are not many fighs where you resort to "oh my god I need a trinket cooldown". Feels like you always got some other cooldown to cover when you need it.

    @Choice it is hillarious to see that you never realise that most players are not 25 man raiders, aswell as most players are not in the top100 guilds pushing heroic modes. The gearing + cooldown usage varies alot from 25 to 10 and from end game heroic modes to early heroic modes / normal modes.

    Basically your calling an orange wrong for being orange instead of yellow like you bananas
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2012-12-04 at 02:42 PM.

  16. #596
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    And that's why we've talked about damage smoothening, and it being fine, although not optimal, to macro trinkets to other abilities.

    If people really want to, I can make a graph to demonstrate my point but I doubt it'll be needed.

  17. #597
    Macroing things to other things is never optimal as there are always exceptions to a rule where you want to use things together. At some point you will want to use some spells seperately no matter what they are for some special fight mechanic.

    And all brings back do the question, how do you define optimal? Is optimal max tdr, damage smoothening or on-demand damage reduction. And that is all dependant on fight, raid size and your raid group.

    Chaining HA+mastery trinket will cause max damage smoothening. Using them together will cause max TDR and max on-demand damage reduction.

    Both can be better in different situations.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2012-12-04 at 02:55 PM.

  18. #598
    Banned rawhammer's Avatar
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    my 2c: macroing a cd with another ability is never a good idea - you have just lost control of one of your defensive cds which could be much better used to (hopefully) prevent a death event. Tanking is (nowadays) all about controlling your damage intake.

    If you habitually forget to use a cd during fights then all i can suggest is practise more and play better.

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    my 2c: macroing a cd with another ability is never a good idea - you have just lost control of one of your defensive cds which could be much better used to (hopefully) prevent a death event. Tanking is (nowadays) all about controlling your damage intake.

    If you habitually forget to use a cd during fights then all i can suggest is practise more and play better.
    Not to be pedantic but it seems like the odds on a mastery on use trinket preventing your death would be astronomical.

  20. #600
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luciferiuz View Post
    Not to be pedantic but it seems like the odds on a mastery on use trinket preventing your death would be astronomical.
    Pedant! General principle though.

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