1. #761
    Like hell it would be 40% per HP. They just spent nearly a year trying to eradicate any trace of CTC filling, and are going to reverse that with a second tier set bonus? I really doubt it.
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  2. #762
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    That was my initial thought but after reading it carefully the wording made me think twice. Gona stick with my first instinct of 5secs per charge but that's got to change or the % does because otherwise we'll be sitting in the gear from the raid, even with a haste build of at least 70-75% block with a very high uptime so the abolishment of CTC yet being close to it again is actually there still. Even for early PTR numbers they seem pretty high.

  3. #763
    Very high block chance, at the expense of about a third of our ShoR uptime (more would be lost if you have less haste), and ShoR reduces the damage taken by 45-50% instead of the 30% from blocking. I want to like it, but I can't see it being particularly nice to work out on the fly if it is worth using WoG despite not having much need for it just for the block chance and forgoing the reduction from ShoR for the next 5-6 seconds, or just using ShoR instead.
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  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    ShoR reduces the damage taken by 45-50% instead of the 30% from blocking
    The thing being left out here is that SotR is 3 seconds at the cost of 3 holy power per use, and the block buff is 5 seconds per 1. It's about the same mitigation overall or better with the benefit of better smoothing. (Depending on what exactly you're trying to mitigate. For instance, I'd suggest sticking with SotR on stuff with a bleed, or making sure you have the holy power to use SotR for other unblockable physical attacks.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Like hell it would be 40% per HP. They just spent nearly a year trying to eradicate any trace of CTC filling, and are going to reverse that with a second tier set bonus? I really doubt it.
    Hehe, yeah. It's tempting to blame the insomnia, but it's likely more just my own general incompetence of interpretation.
    Last edited by Elathi; 2013-01-10 at 02:28 PM.

  5. #765
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elathi View Post
    Hehe, yeah. It's tempting to blame the insomnia, but it's likely more just my own general incompetence of interpretation.
    Very difficult to interpret without either ingame testing or some proper maths which we could do by sitting here with pen and paper but we would need to do some partial differentiation to map how damage taken changes with respect to a certain variable, which is fine but then you'll have to run lots of tests with that variable and then have lots of variables and do it all again and blearghhh to really get close to what the correct values are.

    I believe that's what Theck does with matlab so I think we should just be lazy and either ingame test or wait on those numbers because most other numbers are going to be rather off the mark. Lazyness pays.

    Also I believe if you PM a mod and suck up somewhat they can change your little title based off your post count to a custom one, you should ask to have yours changed to "The Incompetent"

  6. #766
    If the bonus stays at it is, we wont be able to reach CTC coverage anyway. Which leads to a bit of a dilemma. The block from using a WoG would probably reduce more damage than a SotR on a patchwerk. However, since we are not CTC capped, there is still a pretty big chance that we won't block a single attack, while a SotR is guaranteed damage reduction, making the block, even though this sounds strange, being more of a damage reduction than smoothening. Yes, blocks generally smooths out the damage intake, but as we can't reach the ctc, or even remotely close, in comparison with SotR, it is spikier, and of course leaves the chance to reduce 0 damage with bad rng while SotR will always reduce damage than needed.

    Of course alot of fights have phases with physical damage attacks where SotR wins out as block won't help.

    Where this will shine is fights like will of the emperor. Using WoG a bit before leaving a combo, keeping up extra block for alot of auto attacks.
    Basically, when for a while, the boss does not hit you, though in a very predictable matter will the melee hits soon hurt alot.

    Guess it is good for tanks swaps aswell.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 04:55 PM ----------

    Bit of napkin math using my current values, taken uptimes from my last raid for uptimes.

    Scenario:
    Patchwerk fight.
    Each hit hits for 1000
    10000 hits

    Current:
    45% damage reduction on SotR
    45% uptime
    20% avoidance
    30% chance block

    10000*1000*0.8*0.7975*0.91 = 5805800

    With 2p keeping the block thing up:
    45% damage reduction
    22% uptime
    20% avoidance
    70% chance block

    10000*1000*0.8*0.911*0.79 = 5757520


    So really, with my current values the difference is non existant. Now, WoG also heals which you need to take into account, however the block is less predictable, so that is a trade off. SotR works as I said before on physical damage abilities aswell.
    Though, if the prot set is as badly itememized as the current set, this may cause using off set pieces is a better damage reduction than the 2p.
    I have a feeling that this will be a situational bonus to be honest, on some fights it will probably be good. We can't tell until raid is live. If it was the current tier, I could see myself using this on:

    Gara'Jal
    Elegon
    Will
    Empress
    Sha

    Though until we know how the fights look, we can't really tell how good it will be. This 2p would be a monster on Sha of Fear for obvious reasons. You could have both block and SotR on every thrash.



    Edit: Would like to say that I think that a mastery built paladin would favor not using the 2p other than for those situational fights.
    Look at the values I posted earlier.
    Basically, SotR spam scales better with mastery, as both the SotR and block scales very well with it.
    However, for the 2p, block has a natural cap damage reduction of 30% ( basically 100% block = 30% damage reduction, you can't get more )
    With my haste values, the damage reduction is already on 21% with block, that is very close to the cap.
    Also for a mastery paladin, the block buff would take away a larger % of the SotR uptime, and since mastery buffs SotR, well, thats just counter productive. It just feels as the block buff scales worse with gear. The more gear you have, the more SotR spam is going to pull ahead.

    So my conclusion would be: Unless they change the bonus. Once we are decked in the new tier gear, we are going to have enough stats to make SotR spam reduce more damage. Add that on top with SotR spam being alot more predictable damage intake. ( Hey, heard tanks like this ). I think it is safe to say that the 2p will be situational. How good it will be depends on how the fights are designed, fights where we naturally want to use WoG ( Elegon ), can predict an increased physical damage increase from the boss ( Will, Empress tanking 6 adds ), or just got predictable tank swaps, the 2p can be useful. However on most fights SotR is simply better.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-01-10 at 04:07 PM.
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  7. #767
    More questions, at 3hp we get a buff of 15 sec +40% chanse to block. So, 40% of amount that we have or a flat +40% addet to what we current have. The buff is stackable(15sec+15sec=30sec or it's refreshing, 15sec+15sec=still 15sec.

  8. #768
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    What I'm guessing is the 4T15 bonus would favor WoG in situations where you'll get hit a lot of times for moderate damage while ShotR would be favored for that one big hit every now and then (think Sha of Fear).

    One way I could see myself using it is WoG'ing right after a Will dance finishes, thus having the +40% block chance up until the next dance, give or take (and getting some ShotRs in as well).

    This, of course, reading it as 40% block for 5 sec * HP spent.

    That said and done, I'd like to bring an oldie one back: Should I use Colossus now?

  9. #769
    What are the chances with enough haste you can keep up the 40% block and SoTR?

  10. #770
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Not sure exactly but we could calculate it quite easily, how much haste you'd need. However I'm currently revising for my uni exams so I need to focus on that (although it is maths exams...) so I'll be sticking to that instead personally. Someone with more time than me can do it If you wanted to alternate you'd need to generate 6 HP in 15 seconds. with 0 haste I believe we're generating 5 every 12 seconds assuming a 1.5 second GCD if you execute the rotation correctly so I guess we'd be able to alternate and keep the buff up with 1 SHOTR in between anyway? I don't know really I've never bothered watching timings or the exact generation.


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  11. #771
    Would be 5.6 every 13.5 seconds. The .6 because CS/HotR have that 20% chance to proc GC, and 13.5 because there's still another gcd before you can use another ability after that last X. And it's only a full 5.6 if both your touch stats are capped.

    So with 0 haste (but max hit/exp) you could already weave in one SotR between almost every refresh, or better, procs willing. Though there'll be times when you don't need or care about having the extra block, or don't need it for another full 15 seconds.
    Last edited by Elathi; 2013-01-11 at 01:15 PM.

  12. #772
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Was purposely ignoring Grand Crusader procs so that you could absolutely rely on keeping the buffs up rather than hoping for a proc to push you over the edge as that will leave you with some "downtime" which you wouldn't want, if we're going by maintaining it

  13. #773
    Well, either way, we can never keep up both. Even if we had so much haste that we could use a cs-j-cs-j-cs-j rotation, we would still generate only 1hopo/second, which is just enough to give sotr 100% uptime. We could however use something like Divine Purpose and rely on getting procs to keep the shield up, so yeah, maybe with 225% haste we could. 4p retri pvp would help aswell.
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  14. #774
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    So, if I am right, we will be able to keep full uptime on both buffs at around 90,000 haste. Why are we even talking about this?

  15. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by Turvakapsu View Post
    So, if I am right, we will be able to keep full uptime on both buffs at around 90,000 haste. Why are we even talking about this?
    Was kinda my point. Given, there are some special situations like HA letting you keep both buffs up. However, you won't be able to keep both buffs up rotation wise, even with insane haste amounts and procs and what not. Basically everytime you apply the block, it is a trade off from SotR uptime.

    I think the point of this is to give some extra use to that WoG, when you actually use it so you don't lose to much on it.
    Also, for those times you can bank up holy power and prepare for incoming physical hits like an intense add phase, tank swaps or whatever, which will allow you to prebuff the block.
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  16. #776
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    We're not talking about this, someone posted it and I assumed he meant to use both so posted about it. If we can't hit anywhere near 100% uptime now why would it be easier when we have another spell to weave in? Hence I assumed he meant 100% uptime on the 2pc and then using SHOTR in between which is the only sensible thing I can pull out of his brief post

  17. #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turvakapsu View Post
    So, if I am right, we will be able to keep full uptime on both buffs at around 90,000 haste. Why are we even talking about this?
    better yet, with 100% uptime on SotR we have 100% physical reduction, why would we want block at that point?

  18. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I think the point of this is to give some extra use to that WoG, when you actually use it so you don't lose to much on it.
    Also, for those times you can bank up holy power and prepare for incoming physical hits like an intense add phase, tank swaps or whatever, which will allow you to prebuff the block.
    This. This is the whole point. It is a measure to make the use of WoG less detrimental, and to give some cover while you re-build bastion stacks. It is NOT supposed to be a replacement for ShotR or some brand new way to play prot. However, we can certainly use it intelligently in certain situations to augment our already strong defense repertoire.

    Most of us camp BoG stacksx5 for 2 reasons: 1) using a WOG means you're not using ShotR and 2) 5BoG WOG is an extremely potent oh-shit button, easily healing between 300-600k. Just because WOG and ShotR are mutually exclusive does not mean that the 2pc bonus and ShotR are. This 2pc SCREAMS tank swap/phase transition utility. ShotR lasts 3 sec of ~50% dmg redux, and currently the best method to perform tank swaps is to build up 5 HoPo, taunt, ShotR -> CS/J -> ShotR and you have 6 sec of uptime while heals get adjusted or whatever. With this new 2pc, you will be able to cast a WOG a few seconds before the swap for 15 sec of +40% block, rebuild your 5 HoPo and transition as usual. All this would cost you is one non-vengeance'd ShotR, which is pretty limp-wristed anyhow.

    Don't try to make this a gamebreaking thing; it's a (very) useful tool, but it won't change how we fundamentally gear or play. It's a huge increase to QoL in terms of reducing the dmg redux penalty when you DO have to WOG, which is great.

    My gut tells me 4pc is in much the same boat, however with Unbreakable Spirit putting DivProt on a ~35sec cooldown, we should see a decent influx of HoPo provided that the damage range required to proc it isn't something ridiculous.
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  19. #779
    I see this as either a way to buff the weight of mastery or to slightly increase protection DPS with using the alabaster shield glyph for periods of lower physical damage or on fights with more magic damage. With lower mastery, using the the 3HP on SoTR would probably still be better damage reduction.

  20. #780
    So, with this new set bonus, would haste building become even better? Would we start to see world top prot paladins going haste? My guild knocks my haste building at the moment because of the top guys (like the world first heroic kill guy who has a weird rotation). I already see haste becoming better as the expansion goes on, but what about with this set bonus? Needless to say, itll get nerfed by t16. Otherwise we would keep it.

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