So I just found out that Theck is apparently some kind of university mathematics professor. This is somehow not surprising.
Justice, Crusade, Protection.
---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 05:18 AM ----------
Holy, Light, Truth.
Calling it that http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/94938-5-2...-boss-8-loot-1 would be best in slot were it not for GC's incoming meddling.
I was thinking why they want to change haste for us. Maybe it scale too good and we will reach a point when sacred shield will be absorbing every second or every two seconds...which is OP...for example, now i absorb every 4.2 second(approx.) and at high vengeanse it does make a difference...
Just disappointed and trying to understand they reasoning.
I'm getting absolutely wasted tonight. I apologise in advance for any Merin-like rants.
Holy, Protection, Retribution.
---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 10:33 AM ----------
Help with this one too please. A blue read my forum post and moved it to Paladin forum which no one reads.
Last edited by rawhammer; 2013-01-25 at 03:49 PM.
WaRnInG - I'm going on a bar crawl vs Nottingham Trent tonight and there's no way I'm being outdrunk by some poly, so I'll be off my ass again hard tonight. If I make it back and decide to post... yeah.
Wisdom, Templar, Avenger.
Nothing suprising really. Pretty much the same conclusion we all did when they announced the bonuses.
---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 09:18 PM ----------
Faith in ghostcrawler lost.
- We knew haste would be attractive to Protection when we gave them Sanctity of Battle, which only Retribution had previously. That's why we gave them Sanctity of Battle. Even if you have a tanking set with no haste, there are haste buffs in the game. We wanted all the tanks to benefit somewhat from what were traditionally DPS stats, since part of the active mitigation design was to make tanks care more about hitting things with sword (and claws). It only gets to be a problem, as I said previously, if dodge and parry (which are going to be on some gear) are perceived as pointless. (They aren't pointless, but that's really beside the point at this stage.) We aren't going to reitemize every plate piece in the game to remove dodge and parry. We also don't want to nerf haste for paladins, because it is fun, and for the most part working as intended. We don't have a solution yet that we're willing to share, but that's the intent. I state all this, because I feel like this already long thread has become a bit too dominated by this one topic in the past few pages.
1. He says he want us to scale with haste buffs even in a tanking set without haste. Ehr, to bad the melee hast buff does not actually give melee haste, only weapon haste, so it does not even give us anything. If you want to buff the melee haste buff to give us melee haste, great! more haste for us!
Come to think of it, that could actually be a solution. Making the melee buff give melee haste, which would make us reach the 50% soft cap faster, so we would not want haste on every gear, just enough haste to reach the cap.
2. Dodge and parry - You made them useless by removing them from the combat table. Why did you do this again? Yes, so tanks would not have a boring stack to CTC cap playstyle. So by removing them from the block CTC table, aswell as the insane DR on dodge and parry, he actually made dodge and parry worthless. And yes, dodge and parry is worthless, no argument.
3. Haste is in a good spot right now, it is stronger than mastery, but not so much stronger that mastery is a "troll" build.
The problem once again is that dodge and parry is to weak, not that haste is to strong.
4. Partual part of the problem is the fact that Prot Paladins dps and threat is so horrible in comparison to the other tanks. We need the haste to be on-par with other tanks.
5. I do not see anything fixing this "issue" without completely reworking the entire dodge/parry system, inserting some passive that reduces our GCD and CDs on spells ( either passive or scaling with some other stat ), a complete rehaul off the damage output of protection paladins. This seems like a lot of work for nothing.
6. So tired of hearing this whole "tier set" discussion. The protection set is itemized with undesirable stats ( dodge and parry ). Obviously we will think twice before taking it. The real problem is dodge and parry. I feel like they are outdated and should just be removed as stats from the game.
7. Can't he see how much they succeeded in prot paladins? I have never heard so many prot paladins actually enjoy tanking as currently. Why do they feel the need to break that because they are "competing with gear". That is up to every single raid group to decide who gets gear and not. Also, coins... 80% of my loot come from coins. I really just cant comprehend why they are trying to break something they have actually done good for once.
8. Since so many fights are 1 tank fights and obviously you have more than 2 tanks in alot of raid groups, it is great being able to gear your MS and retri OS at the same time. So giving a prot paladin a loot it gets double usage, both for retri and prot.
9. Can't really see the issue still. 1 tank sharing loot with 3 dps specs. Just look at how healers share loot with casters, that should be 100x more issue.
Sadly I cannot post on US forums, but he is so clueless what he is talking about, it makes me sad he is calling the design shots on my class. If anyone is going to make a post on the US forums, feel free to bring up any of the points I just mentioned.
Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-01-25 at 08:26 PM.
I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.
I was expecting something worse. Middle of PTR testing so maybe my focus is lacking, but yeah.
EDIT: Yeah, you're absolutely right it's sad he doesn't know how haste buffs actually work. But the general feel of the post was better than i was expecting. That's all i wanted to say really.
Last edited by Teks; 2013-01-25 at 08:35 PM.
1. Haste elixir, bloodlust, windsong, trinkets, prof. I don't think he was referring exclusively to the 8 core raid buffs.
2. They aren't useless, they provide a chance to not take damage. They aren't ideal, but they are far from useless.
5./7. In an earlier post on the same thread (i believe) he said that they might approach the issue by changing some of our abilities like SotR. Who knows, we'll have to wait and see before making conclusions. It's safe to say that the devs do understand how much prot paladins enjoy haste playstyle. He says it in his posts. "We dont want to nerf haste... it is fun... most part working as intended...". They are not "trying to break something", I think they just don't like how much traditional tank stats have been pushed to the side.
Also, GC is not the ultimate voice in class design. He's the spokesperson. I imagine that the decision to adjust prot paladins was one that was reached by multiple devs.
I don't really understand his reasoning of "there's too much competition for haste plate". It has never been a problem for healers to compete with caster DPS for loot. Why not leave it up to each individual guild to decide who gets what? It's not like we'll pass up an item with dodge/parry/mastery on it, if it's an upgrade, just because it doesn't have haste.
As a 10-man raider, I really don't mind more people needing a specific type of loot, we already disenchant probably half the drops that we get. I suppose it's more of a problem for 25-man guilds.
From a control standpoint they are useless as they are random. We don't care about total damage taken because total damage taken is usually not the reason we die, it's spike damage. Both dodge and parry are far inferior to haste, mastery and stamina for those situations.2. They aren't useless, they provide a chance to not take damage. They aren't ideal, but they are far from useless.
Last edited by Auk; 2013-01-25 at 08:36 PM.
I didn't say dodge and parry is useless, I said they were worthless, big difference. They have no value in comparison to the other tanking stats. Simple as that. Problem with dodge and parry is, how effective are they?
When I recieve a dodge or parrry, the only thing that happens is that the hots on me and the incoming heals from the healers overheal. So while it reduce damage, the actual effect is that healers overheal instead.
Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-01-25 at 10:00 PM.
I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.
---------- Post added 2013-01-26 at 06:43 AM ----------
Also, that bar crawl was shit I was sober by the time I hit the club. Almost got in a fight cos some assholes were singing:
"<insert offensive song about Idi Amin here>"
And some people though it was us. Yeah, nice, a bunch of scrawny, bored, cold, looking white guys with a few girls looking in an equally sorry state were obviously singing a rousing tale about a dictator. Ended up coming home early but because of the snow or slush rather, none of the cabs would take us home so we had to walk for about an hour because the girl I was looking after was wearing lil open shoes with no tights so she could barely walk, no grip on shoes so slipping, and I was in the thinnest t shirt known to mankind. Surprised if I don't get hypothermia, she almost got fucking frostbite 2 random guys saw us and gave her some gloves thank god (Thank you Marcus and some guy from Bistro Live in Nottingham).
Not slept yet feeling so shit, gona go raid Greggs in about an hour and treat myself...
Hammer, Spirit, Sacrifice.
Last edited by MerinPally; 2013-01-31 at 05:32 PM.
I can see him just nerfing Sanctity of Battles haste component and just buffing how well we scale with mitigation stats. Annoying, I know. But it's Ghostcrawler, he never listens to the community after the WOTLK disaster.