1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    With HA and GoAK you can pretty much cover nearly 40 seconds of combat with a ~50% damage cooldown, and then have another 6 seconds of ShoR banked during GoAK to add to the total duration. Tag a Divine Protection to the end and you have a major amount of extra mitigation up for almost an ENTIRE MINUTE. (and then only a minute until HA is ready again )
    Yeah I remember the lulz playing about with it when it was the Ret ability, some of the stuff you can do is hilarious

  2. #1042
    Interesting change. I'm glad they didn't touch haste, though i'm curious as to what this will mean for reforging/gemming ect and whether this change - changes anything Which i don't think it will for those going the haste route.
    Last edited by Xucuroz; 2013-02-05 at 01:10 PM.
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  3. #1043
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    With HA and GoAK you can pretty much cover nearly 40 seconds of combat with a ~50% damage cooldown, and then have another 6 seconds of ShoR banked during GoAK to add to the total duration. Tag a Divine Protection to the end and you have a major amount of extra mitigation up for almost an ENTIRE MINUTE. (and then only a minute until HA is ready again )

    This makes add tanking at Grand Empress so much safer.
    Pretty much the same result with SW. Except that you get 20% increased healing taken and 44% increased self healing for 30 seconds aswell.

    It is hillarious with SW during bloodlust. Can use J-J-J rotation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xucuroz View Post
    Interesting change. I'm glad they didn't touch haste, though i'm curious as to what this will mean for reforging/gemming ect and whether this change - changes anything Which i don't think it will for those going the haste route.
    It doesn't change anything.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  4. #1044
    Epic! GenaiTN's Avatar
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    Oh hai guys. I'm back from a week long ban for saying zzz!

    Firstly, I'm excited to see Firefly33 is arguing with everyone as per usual (<3)

    Secondly, this Paladin change won't change anything... at all. It'll make dodge/parry gear just more desirable than crit/haste gear, which isn't even a fix.

    Lastly, no MerinPally's drunken outbursts make me go something something.

  5. #1045
    I am not argueing anything ( if you refer to my last pot ) haha. Just stating that SW and HA brings almost the same result, I think that they are both viable but with my gearing strategy, only SW is viable for me. However for others both are very much viable.

    SW brings sligthly less HoPo but makes up for it with the increased healing.

    Also, I mean, if someone states something, I love to counter argue sometimes. It is like business, you need competetion, having a monopoly is no good for development.

    So if someone says "X is awesome", I usually say "Y is also good what makes X better than Y", to get people thinking, and actually analyse their choice instead of blindly assuming that X is better than Y. ( This applies to pretty much everything from stats, talents, glyphs, gear, etc )

    I think it is very healthy in a discussion forum to have someone with opposing opinion, won't be much of a discussion otherwise!
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-05 at 01:28 PM.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #1046
    Epic! GenaiTN's Avatar
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    It was only playful banter

  7. #1047
    We like being playful here! Especially merin during weekends.

    Btw, I may sound hostile sometimes but I can assure you, strict smiles only policy here.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  8. #1048
    Epic! GenaiTN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    We like being playful here! Especially merin during weekends.

    Btw, I may sound hostile sometimes but I can assure you, strict smiles only policy here.
    Oh I can imagine. You're our Protection Paladins version of Anaxie. Full of joy and happiness and rainbows spew out from every sentence. :3

  9. #1049
    Bloodsail Admiral Splosion's Avatar
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    Seems like we've got a cap on mastery that's lower than 99% (Lol'd at why that's likely to be).

    Loving the Grand Crusader changes though.

  10. #1050
    Was actually thinking about the GC change... It actually makes haste even MORE valuable when offtanking on tight enrage timers to make up for the lack of procs. Maybe not the most common scenario, but still.

  11. #1051
    High Overlord Auk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    SW brings sligthly less HoPo but makes up for it with the increased healing.
    It's not slightly less, it's a lot less.

    Holy Avenger provides 0.132 HP/sec.
    Sanctified Wrath provides 0.037 HP/sec.

    I'd also argue that the healing taken increase is negligible if you have a Disc Priest in your raid comp. On many solo tank fights I can achieve as high as 35% of overall healing done on myself with Sacred Shield. Add in other healer's absorbs and that can be as high as 50%. Sacred Shield doesn't benefit at all from the healing increase and i'm assuming other healer's absorbs don't either.

    I must admit, I find it a little odd that in a discussion a few pages back you stated that you never get spiked below 70% health yet you advocate a healing increase rather than straight up damage prevention. Surely in situations where tank damage is no issue, a healing increase cooldown (which you would be using for DPS anyways) will probably lead to an increase in overhealing?

    As for DPS, I believe that Holy Avenger is actually stronger in single target situations. That may differ if you choose to only soft-cap expertise however.
    Last edited by Auk; 2013-02-05 at 07:44 PM.

  12. #1052
    Quote Originally Posted by Auk View Post
    It's not slightly less, it's a lot less.

    Holy Avenger provides 0.132 HPG.
    Sanctified Wrath provides 0.037 HPG.

    I'd also argue that the healing taken increase is negligible if you have a Disc Priest in your raid comp. On many solo tank fights I can achieve as high as 35% of overall healing done on myself with Sacred Shield. Add in other healer's absorbs and that can be as high as 50%. Sacred Shield doesn't benefit at all from the healing increase and i'm assuming other healer's absorbs don't either.

    I must admit, I find it a little odd that in a discussion a few pages back you stated that you never get spiked below 70% health yet you advocate a healing increase rather than straight up damage prevention. Surely in situations where tank damage is no issue, a healing increase cooldown (which you would be using for DPS anyways) will probably lead to an increase in overhealing?

    As for DPS, I believe that Holy Avenger is actually stronger in single target situations. That may differ if you choose to only soft-cap expertise however.
    I didn't say that I never get spiked down below 70% health. I gave an example, thats all. It happens, but never just from boss auto attacks (boss melee swings in 10 is...) That said. I feel like you cannot differ how to theorycraft for static damage in-take, and how to theorycraft for burstier damage in take. ( Say, Empress adds, Emperor normal titan gas, etc, windlord last phase etc ), basically situations where you take more damage ( and predictably know before that you will take more damage ).

    You say that you can achieve as high as 35% overall healing done on yourself with sacred shield. And other healers absorb etc.
    That does not matter. You do not use your CDs overall, you use them when you need them. Granted, that you actually will need them.
    You use your CDs when you know that your own absorbs and healers absorbs and heals will not be enough. When you know you will take alot of damage.

    Now lets back up a bit and look at the actual HP gain from each spell.

    For model I am going to use a character with 25% haste.

    During an ideal situation ( You starting HA with both CS and J off cooldown )
    You will get off 5 CS and 4 judgments during HA. This leads to gain of 27 HoPo disregarding GC procs. During the HA. Not sure if we should disregard GC procs or not. Hmm, lets say we have the old system still.
    5 cs, 20% chance, that is 1 GC proc in average. Another 3 HoPo.

    So we are up to 30 HoPo during the duration of the HA. However, we need to consider the fact that SW lasts for 30 seconds.

    During the next 12 seconds after the HA. You would get off 2 judgements and 4 CS.
    That is another 6.8 HoPo, leading to a total off 36.8 HoPo during the 30 seconds.

    The SW is easier to check.

    13 judgements
    6 cs

    An average of 20.2 HoPo

    So that is a trade off from 16.6 HoPo vs taking 20% increased healing taken and doing 44% more self healing for 30 seconds.
    Nowhere near the extreme difference that you mentioned.

    So now we are talking a legitimate trade off. Which by extension means that any figth that is 100% physical damage will be pretty much neck and neck. ( Depends on your current mastery levels and how much self healing you do ).
    Ofc as you said, if you got healers with alot of absorbs, that scales better with HA than SW. Though, disc priests Spirit Shell scales with increased healing taken as far as I am aware. Not 100% sure though.

    Though any boss with magic damage heavy phase will favor SW.

    Also SW adds more dps (although negliable). Simply because during normal rotation, you push back J in favor of CS. In SW you push back CS in favor of J. J hits alot harder than CS causing SW to pull ahead.

    Which is an important point, since as I say so often, on how many figths do you even need the HA or SW for survivability purposes?
    I am not saying to never use HA, HA has some great uses. However a majority of the figths favor SW.
    Same that on some figths Eternal Flame is actually viable. And the current Tier 1 talent discussion between LAotL and SoL, they both have their uses on different figths. Not to mention the LH vs ES. Same goes for HA and SW, they have their own uses. Act accordingly.

    Bosses where I think HA is about equal to SW ( Read as, situational usage depending on your tactic for the fight )

    Dogs
    Spirit Kings

    Vizier
    Garalon ( ONLY if using Eternal Flames )
    Wind-Lord possibly, but still favor SW there.

    Fights where HA can actually be alot better than SW (also depending on tactic )

    Gara'Jal ( ONLY if you are tanking during enrage and healing is issue ) SW alot better for enrage purposes.
    Emperors
    Empress ( P2 only, if you can handle P2 with SW, SW pulls ahead )
    Sha of fear ( Pretty much same as above, HA is a nice CD to have, but if you can handle the figth without it, SW pulls ahead )

    Thing with HA is that it is situational on every fight that it is viable on, and SW hands down win out on the other fights.

    Also, one thing to remember with SW and HA for damage reduction purposes. The reason that HA wins out is because it continue to benefit you for longer than 30 seconds. On a lot of fights, the huge damage intake you take lasts shorter than 30 seconds.
    SW wins out if we are talking about a shorter duration. Say boss goes into a mini frenzy where he hits the tank alot for 10-15 seconds.
    I situation like that greatly benefits SW. Since SW will have 100% uptime on shorter durations, the same as HA, but will also provide increased healing.

    To illustrate with a picture using roughly 25% haste.

    More haste would:

    1. Make the HA line longer
    2. Make the initial SW line ( before the spikes ) longer. E.g. 50% haste would see the first drop at the 25s mark.
    3. Make the dips in the SW line shorter.

    Also yes, beautifully drawn paint graph because I am lazy. Does not need to be pretty get the point through

    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-05 at 10:19 PM.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #1053
    High Overlord Auk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You say that you can achieve as high as 35% overall healing done on yourself with sacred shield. And other healers absorb etc.
    That does not matter. You do not use your CDs overall, you use them when you need them. Granted, that you actually will need them.
    You use your CDs when you know that your own absorbs and healers absorbs and heals will not be enough. When you know you will take alot of damage.
    Well it's pretty easy to look at Sacred Shield healing done during burst periods.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4...#tab-healspell

    With a couple of PW:S thrown in that would easily be 30% healing done, negating an entire 30% of a healing cooldown. Overhealing is a little difficult to analyse but you can't just disregard the fact that you will have more overhealing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Now lets back up a bit and look at the actual HP gain from each spell.

    For model I am going to use a character with 25% haste.

    During an ideal situation ( You starting HA with both CS and J off cooldown )
    You will get off 5 CS and 4 judgments during HA. This leads to gain of 27 HoPo disregarding GC procs. During the HA. Not sure if we should disregard GC procs or not. Hmm, lets say we have the old system still.
    5 cs, 20% chance, that is 1 GC proc in average. Another 3 HoPo.

    So we are up to 30 HoPo during the duration of the HA. However, we need to consider the fact that SW lasts for 30 seconds.

    During the next 12 seconds after the HA. You would get off 2 judgements and 4 CS.
    That is another 6.8 HoPo, leading to a total off 36.8 HoPo during the 30 seconds.

    The SW is easier to check.

    13 judgements
    6 cs

    An average of 20.2 HoPo

    So that is a trade off from 16.6 HoPo vs taking 20% increased healing taken and doing 44% more self healing for 30 seconds.
    Nowhere near the extreme difference that you mentioned.
    Why complicate it? Ignore Avenger's Shield for simplicity (should be roughly the same number of procs regardless). 20% haste means a 1.25 second GCD.

    If you're doing your rotation correctly it'll look like this when not under SW:
    CS - J - X
    CS - X - J
    CS - X - X

    Under SW:
    J - CS - J - X

    That results in:

    Holy Avenger, 16 "extra" holy power gained, 120s cooldown, 0.13 recurring HP/sec.
    Sanctified Wrath, 4 "extra" holy power gained, 180s cooldown, 0.02 recurring HP/sec.

    These are with the standard holy power gained subtracted. Remember that we are only concerned with any additional HP that will be gained during the cooldown. That's also assuming that we use both cooldowns as soon as they are available which is never the case. I find myself usually getting off 3 Holy Avengers compared to 2 Avenging Wraths on an average fight.

    Overall it's around ~5% less ShotR uptime when using SW over HA. The key points when making a decision will be how useful the healing increase is and whether or not you need the long period of 100% ShotR uptime that HA provides (Empress and Wind Lord are both fantastic fights as examples of this).

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Though any boss with magic damage heavy phase will favor SW.
    I will agree that SW is attractive on heavy magic damage fights. Lei Shi and heroic Protectors immediately spring to mind. HA is useless for survivability on the former and much less worthwhile on the latter as more than half of the damage that you take is magical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Also SW adds more dps (although negliable). Simply because during normal rotation, you push back J in favor of CS. In SW you push back CS in favor of J. J hits alot harder than CS causing SW to pull ahead.
    This is only partially true. With SW (especially under Bloodlust) you're pushing back all of your other abilities even more. CS and J are our weakest hitting abilities. Theck recently reran his sims in matlab to account for higher vengeance and HA is ahead regardless of vengeance when you are aiming for 15% expertise. If you don't want to cap expertise then SW will likely pull ahead, though remember that once you reach 50% melee haste, additional haste is actually a DPS loss. This will impact the DPS of SW during Bloodlust (a period where you will normally want to pop Avenging Wrath).

    You can find the results of those sims here: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...718671#p718671
    Last edited by Auk; 2013-02-05 at 10:36 PM.

  14. #1054
    So does it look like Haste is still going to be King (after Hit and Expertise) once 5.2 hits? Because I don't want to get a bunch of gear with Haste only to find out it's going to be bad for me once 5.2 hits and then all of a sudden having a bunch of pieces that I need to replace.

  15. #1055
    Quote Originally Posted by Auk View Post
    ]Sanctified Wrath, 4 "extra" holy power gained, 180s cooldown, 0.02 recurring HP/sec.
    One thing to remember is that SW is on 115s cooldown with 4p retri. ( Used to be 85 QQ, why did they have to nerf rets? )

    Yeah, I am not capped in expertise yet so probably thats why SW still grants me more dps. Though with the 4p ret I believe that SW pulls ahead no questions asked.

    Additional haste is also not a dps loss after 50%. You can still perform your rotation exactly the same way at 55% and 65% haste, only difference is that you will melee swing slightly faster giving you a really tiny tiny increase.


    I still like SW because it is alot stronger cooldown for shorter period off times. This reminds me of the whole haste vs mastery debate. HA reminds of haste, without the added benefit of a huge amount of dps increase.The dps increase/decrease between SW and HA is really negliable. Only if you have 4p ret SW pulls ahead alot, SW wins on AE over HA though by quite a bit. If you use battle healer glyph you will also see a bigger increase in hps with SW, something that theck did not model properly in his sims was that actually. You will ofc also see stronger SoI heals with SW aswell. The gear sets used in the simulation does not have very realistic stats either.

    HA provides longer smoother protection.
    SW provides a stronger smooth short (15-25s) term protection and then a near equal reduction yet a bit more uneven for the remainder of the duration.

    If we were talking about two passive skills here (ofc not as strong but with similar effect), HA would probably be better. But I feel like in the majority of cases. SW is stronger for defensive purposes aswell.
    CDs are CDs. Tanks don't use them to reduce TDR over the course of a figth, they use them because they know they are gonna have a problem surviving something and need instant help.

    Even though I am haste stacking, if I had to choose between a trinket that had on-use haste or on-use mastery, I would take the on-use mastery as it would be a stronger cd. I would rather take passive haste over passive mastery ofc.
    And the SW vs HA is a bit in the same boat, except not as simple.
    Arguments can be made for both ways, both are good on some fights, but it is my opinion that SW is stronger on more fights simply because it provides a stronger initial damage reduction which is what we really need most of the time.

    Another thing with SW, is that you do not always want survival. Sometimes you just want pure dps. Then you can actually drop CS to the back of the priority and use a J-Filler-J-Filler rotation using CS as the lowest filler. This will not hurt your HoPo gain that much but will grant you higher dps.

    Have used this on some figths like Gara'Jal when being off-tank during <20% and Elegon HC burn phase.

    SW just feels like a more versitile talent. HA is so straigth forward in comparison.



    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 11:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zerdus View Post
    So does it look like Haste is still going to be King (after Hit and Expertise) once 5.2 hits? Because I don't want to get a bunch of gear with Haste only to find out it's going to be bad for me once 5.2 hits and then all of a sudden having a bunch of pieces that I need to replace.
    The changes caused haste to pull ahead more from mastery. Though not even noticeable.

    TLDR: Nothing changed. If you look at it with a microscope, the change favors haste a tiny molecule more than it favors mastery. Dodge and parry? Well, they are still a pile of crap. They just sprayed a deoderant on it. Even though it smells better now, it is still crap.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-05 at 11:01 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #1056
    High Overlord Auk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    One thing to remember is that SW is on 115s cooldown with 4p retri. ( Used to be 85 QQ, why did they have to nerf rets? )

    Yeah, I am not capped in expertise yet so probably thats why SW still grants me more dps. Though with the 4p ret I believe that SW pulls ahead no questions asked.

    Additional haste is also not a dps loss after 50%. You can still perform your rotation exactly the same way at 55% and 65% haste, only difference is that you will melee swing slightly faster giving you a really tiny tiny increase.
    In order to gain any HPG from any haste past 50% it's a DPS loss. Of course you can just stop using the CS - X - X rotation but that kind of defeats the purpose of having so much haste. Faster melee swings are pretty much worthless, you'd rather have crit.

    Obviously this is currently only barely relevant during Bloodlust but I thought it worth mentioning as it does affect the value of SW slightly.

  17. #1057
    Quote Originally Posted by Auk View Post
    In order to gain any HPG from any haste past 50% it's a DPS loss. Of course you can just stop using the CS - X - X rotation but that kind of defeats the purpose of having so much haste. Faster melee swings are pretty much worthless, you'd rather have crit.

    Obviously this is currently only barely relevant during Bloodlust but I thought it worth mentioning as it does affect the value of SW slightly.
    Doesnt really affect the value of SW.

    It gives you an active choice.

    I can keep my normal rotation
    or I can get more HoPo for a cost of dps.

    It is the same with HA aswell. Same trade off.

    So it affects HA in the same way.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-06 at 01:47 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #1058
    I might just be missing something but for the new Shield of the Righteous, is the 30%-80% damage reduction proc random, or is it linked to something else like mastery?

  19. #1059
    Over 9000! MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    I might just be missing something but for the new Shield of the Righteous, is the 30%-80% damage reduction proc random, or is it linked to something else like mastery?
    It's still linked to mastery, it's just to prevent mastery capping either in the future or at lower levels I assumed. To add a random chance on how much you'd prevent seems a step backwards considering they want to push active mitigation rather than a random nature.

  20. #1060
    So.... go-go gadget 5.2 mastery?

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