1. #1161
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    This whole "dps piece" and "tank piece" needs to be forgotten about. Stick to the stat priority and then judge based on what stats are on the gear. As much as Firefly disagrees with me on this, I'd rather a Mastery/Dodge than a Mastery/Crit - so which you go for could be either but it's to do with what stats are on it there is no threshold, just get hit and exp capped then pile on the haste with mastery as the second best stat. If you could get all haste/mastery pieces you're rocking but as a temporary upgrade or something, a dodge(parry)/mastery or crit/mastery isn't going to hurt but be a benefit. There's no limit to pass other than get hit and exp cap and then you're away.

    Think there is a high haste value when we no longer want haste but you won't be reaching it yet, so don't worry about it.

    I just simply think that in a vast majority of the cases, a crit will benefit me and the raid group more than a dodge.
    A crit is always useful, a dodge is very rarely useful.

    For the current state of dodge/parry to work good.
    The damage in-take per attack round needs to be very low compared to your HP, so that healers can have you wobbling around 70%~ life with mana effective heals.
    Or you need to be attacked by a big number of attacks each round making it less RNG if you will get a dodge/parry that round or not.

    The first is just simply false in every scenario in mop except perhaps LFR and 5HCs. The second is false on every fight except Wind-Lord maybe, it is borderline the number of adds required imo. Not enough adds on empress. Possibly Elegon adds but wouldn't even consider that.

    Feel like the second combat table for avoidance really screwed them over, lost so much of the value right there.
    Not to mention the insane DR atm.
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  2. #1162
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I just simply think that in a vast majority of the cases, a crit will benefit me and the raid group more than a dodge.
    A crit is always useful, a dodge is very rarely useful..
    Are you seriously saying crit will be a better stat than a dodge in 5.2? With the GC change?
    Also, unless Blizzard decides to fix it it's possible to dodge some boss debuff abilites in the next tier.
    I get that dodge isn't a good stat, but crit is right there with it at the bottom for all intents and purposes.

  3. #1163
    Feel like the second combat table for avoidance really screwed them over, lost so much of the value right there.
    The second combat table screws over block, not avoidance. Crush, Crit, hit, dodge, parry, miss are on the first combat table. If "hit" is rolled, then there is the second roll for block.
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  4. #1164
    Quote Originally Posted by Teks View Post
    Are you seriously saying crit will be a better stat than a dodge in 5.2? With the GC change?
    Also, unless Blizzard decides to fix it it's possible to dodge some boss debuff abilites in the next tier.
    I get that dodge isn't a good stat, but crit is right there with it at the bottom for all intents and purposes.
    I am saying that crit was better before, and the change doesn't change anything about it.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #1165
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Have you guys considered your 5.2 trinket choices? I'm seriously disappointed by the tank trinket choices. I'll probably go and piss our Ret off and grab the Spark one, dunno what to get for the second slot yet.


  6. #1166
    The haste one and the stamina one look good.
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  7. #1167
    Pandaren Monk GenaiTN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    The haste one and the stamina one look good.
    Link pluz?

  8. #1168
    Spark of Zandalar
    Soul Barrier

    I still hope the numbers haven't been tweaked on the stamina one yet cause that's barely a step up from the firelands one

    ......................Protection Paladin PoV.....................

  9. #1169
    Pandaren Monk GenaiTN's Avatar
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    Spark of Zandalar looks... amazing.

  10. #1170
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    The second combat table screws over block, not avoidance. Crush, Crit, hit, dodge, parry, miss are on the first combat table. If "hit" is rolled, then there is the second roll for block.
    Block being screwed over also screws over avoidance since the previous expansions CTC capping severely increased the value of dodge and parry due artificially reducing the maximum hit taken.

    Not argueing that block is being screwed over, just think that avoidance get screwed over even more (as mastery still gives SotR reduction, the block is not the only factor)

    Baiscally, the old CTC table was a car where the block was the tires and the avoidance was engine.

    Now they removed the tires from the car and put them on the ground seperately. The tires are useless now, but the car ain't going anywhere either even though the engine is still running.


    @Trinkets Yeah, those trinkets looks amazing though I often do not spend to much time looking at gear before it is live. Still PTR, stuff changes

    Will be fun to see if GID is still BiS trinket or not.

    If the trinkets stays in current state

    For dps purposes:

    Spark of Zandalar

    - Will probably be king, probably a go to trinket.


    Fabled Feather of Ji-Kun

    This trinket looks great, however I do not really like hit passive on trinket, as it kinda locks you to that trinket, or you need to reforge regem when swapping trinket. If survivability trinkets is not needed, this + the haste one seems like reasonable choices. Will maybe prefer this over the haste one so you do not have to worry about the hit cap when swapping trinkets


    Gaze of the Twins

    Could be a viable choice simply because the facts mentioned above, not having to worry about the hit/exp caps. Not sure how many procs we will get with it though.


    Primordius' Talisman of Rage

    Really like this one to be honest. Can see this one + the haste one being to go to trinkets. Depends a bit on the uptime on the proc.


    So yeah, dps trinkets all boils down to how often do we swap trinkets? Haste+hit one looks like the two best however with a lot of trinket swaps I could opt out from the hit trinket or opt out from the haste trinket and keep the hit one as the permanent one. Which one is better of the other two depends on the uptime of the procs.


    Survivability trinkets:

    Ji-Kun's Rising Winds

    Looks good on paper but think it will fall short because it has expertise for same reasons mentioned above. This trinket is by no means the best must have trinket on every fight, and having a situational trinket with expertise is kinda awkward. It should have had mastery instead.


    Fortitude of the Zandalari

    For sure the best survivability trinket. I used the battlemaster trinket a lot in this tier, mastery + hp on-use. It is awesome. This is just a buffed version. Really really strong survivability trinket.


    Soul Barrier

    Will be second/third choice for survivability. Will have some niche uses for heavy magic fights. Dunno if we have any lei-shi fights this tier so will wait and see.



    Overall I expect Spark + Primordius/Gaze to be standard. Swapping in Fortitude when needed. Gotta say, a lot more interesting trinket choices this tier.

    Spark + Ghost Iron Dragonling will also be a very powerful combo if we do not need trinket swaps that often. ( And do not need to piss melees of as much )

    7(8) semi viable trinkets instead of 4(5).

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 04:57 PM ----------

    Funny though that with current stat weights, ghost iron dragonling proably pulls ahead of the LFR version trinkets, and arguably ahead of the normal mode trinkets, kinda even there. Heroic mode trinkets ahead of ghost iron dragonling for sure though.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-14 at 04:44 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #1171
    You're still valuing Dragonling over all current trinkets?

    I subbed out of that pretty early on in the tier, and never looked back. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on why (not trying to be inflammatory, I just don't see how it can compare).

    Armory is in the sig, though at this time I'm in ret gear. Currently using 2/2 Lei Shen's (489) and Liquid Courage for most content, and sitting at 7.7 hit and 15.0 expertise with ~19% haste IIRC. Given my gearset, I'm reforged out of hit everywhere possible (unless it's detrimental to do so, i.e. tier gloves I went Dodge -> exp and left hit alone) and still over cap a bit. I've got some haste/hit in blue sockets for bonuses, but by and large it's all forged out. Using double-stam on certain fights (Lei Shi, sometimes HC Empress), and on more farm stuff I swap in Vortex or Dragon's Blood.

    I guess I just don't see what 600 Haste, X, and Y would give me that I couldn't get from other, better options. I could put in Haste, Mastery, and Exp, and maybe swap some red gems from Exp/Haste to Str/Haste? But at that point, I could just use Darkmist Vortex if I was after more DPS/threat/parry. I could also just as easily put in the Vial of Dragon's Blood (502, reforged for haste gives ~500ish) if I was after Mastery, no?

    I get that not everyone has these options, and I'm certainly not trying to brag "hurr durr look at mah trinketz"; I'm just trying to qualify your assertion that GID remains a contender for top trinket this tier.

    Current options (ranked in no particular order):
    Lei Shens - Haste passive, str proc
    Darkmist vortex - Str passive, haste proc
    Jade Warlord/Liquid Courage - Stam passive, Mastery on-use
    5.1 Rep tank - Dodge Passive, mastery on-use (I think)
    Vial of Dragon's Blood - Mastery passive, dodge proc
    Stuff of Nightmares - Mastery passive, dodge proc
    Ghost Iron Dragon - 600x3 of unique secondary stats

    At any rate, the sheer number of options provided from the new trinkets looks amazing. Sad that there are 20+ item loot tables, esp as a 10-man raider now, but one can hope for the best!
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  12. #1172
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    I'll definitely be going for the Spark as my #1 and for #2 I'll probably swap between Ji-kun's and Soul Barrier.

  13. #1173
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    You're still valuing Dragonling over all current trinkets?

    I subbed out of that pretty early on in the tier, and never looked back. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on why (not trying to be inflammatory, I just don't see how it can compare).
    Some people look at it as it's +1800 stats you don't need in other spots. Essentially giving you a chunk of haste.



  14. #1174
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    You're still valuing Dragonling over all current trinkets?

    I subbed out of that pretty early on in the tier, and never looked back. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on why (not trying to be inflammatory, I just don't see how it can compare).

    Armory is in the sig, though at this time I'm in ret gear. Currently using 2/2 Lei Shen's (489) and Liquid Courage for most content, and sitting at 7.7 hit and 15.0 expertise with ~19% haste IIRC. Given my gearset, I'm reforged out of hit everywhere possible (unless it's detrimental to do so, i.e. tier gloves I went Dodge -> exp and left hit alone) and still over cap a bit. I've got some haste/hit in blue sockets for bonuses, but by and large it's all forged out. Using double-stam on certain fights (Lei Shi, sometimes HC Empress), and on more farm stuff I swap in Vortex or Dragon's Blood.

    I guess I just don't see what 600 Haste, X, and Y would give me that I couldn't get from other, better options. I could put in Haste, Mastery, and Exp, and maybe swap some red gems from Exp/Haste to Str/Haste? But at that point, I could just use Darkmist Vortex if I was after more DPS/threat/parry. I could also just as easily put in the Vial of Dragon's Blood (502, reforged for haste gives ~500ish) if I was after Mastery, no?

    I get that not everyone has these options, and I'm certainly not trying to brag "hurr durr look at mah trinketz"; I'm just trying to qualify your assertion that GID remains a contender for top trinket this tier.

    Current options (ranked in no particular order):
    Lei Shens - Haste passive, str proc
    Darkmist vortex - Str passive, haste proc
    Jade Warlord/Liquid Courage - Stam passive, Mastery on-use
    5.1 Rep tank - Dodge Passive, mastery on-use (I think)
    Vial of Dragon's Blood - Mastery passive, dodge proc
    Stuff of Nightmares - Mastery passive, dodge proc
    Ghost Iron Dragon - 600x3 of unique secondary stats

    At any rate, the sheer number of options provided from the new trinkets looks amazing. Sad that there are 20+ item loot tables, esp as a 10-man raider now, but one can hope for the best!
    Presuming that you are not engineer ofc.

    Assuming that you are geared appropriately (i.e. not full prot set), you should not have hit and exp caps passively. The prot set have a lot of hit especially so if you reach hit cap passively GID gets ranked lower. The ret gear has more haste and mastery though and less hit and expertise, this means that you can safely put in 600 hit and 600 expertise without overcapping. And 600 mastery / haste whichever you prefer.
    By extension in gemming and reforging, this means that the GID gives 1800 mastery / haste since you have to reforge / gem less hit / expertise.

    This is all presuming that your gear is not hit capped passively ofc.
    Like I see in your armory, you got a lot of prot gear which is unfortunate. If you had more optimal gear it would increase the value of the dragonling a lot.

    So GID is basically 1800 mastery / 1800 haste, 1200mastery 600 haste / 1200 haste 600 mastery if you are in prot gear mostly.

    Lets compare that to, I don't know, vial of dragonsblood heroic, that I see soooooo many tanks use.

    1218 mastery, 3653 dodge proc. Now, you know my feeling about avoidance in general I presume. Now, having a PROC dodge, words cannot extend how terribly useless that is. It is not even on use, it's a proc.

    Lets compare then GID vs Heroic VoD.

    1800 mastery vs 1218 mastery I do believe that 1800 mastery is more than 1218 mastery, but I could be wrong. Ofc that can be 1800 haste if you are haste stacked.

    To mention the proc of VoD is like mentioning the proc on GID, as the ghost iron dragonling (the little flying guy, not the trinket) is just as useful as the dodge proc.

    Lei-Shens Final Order is the tricky one.

    1800 haste vs 1218 haste + 3653 strength proc. I rate these about equal, however as a tank, I always prefered on use effects > passive stats > procs. Making me almost prefer GID in most situations.

    Naturally GID can not compare to stamina trinkets as they are not the same category. But talking purely about secondary stat trinkets GID is BiS or second BiS after Lei Shen.

    As you said, current options:

    Lei Shens - Haste passive, str proc
    Darkmist vortex - Str passive, haste proc
    Jade Warlord/Liquid Courage - Stam passive, Mastery on-use
    5.1 Rep tank - Dodge Passive, mastery on-use (I think)
    Vial of Dragon's Blood - Mastery passive, dodge proc
    Stuff of Nightmares - Mastery passive, dodge proc
    Ghost Iron Dragon - 600x3 of unique secondary stats

    You forgot the battlemaster trinket with mastery + on use health, it is actually extremely good (situationally)

    Stuff of Nightmares, not an option.
    Vial of Dragon's blood, not an option.
    Darkmist good for purely dps. Situational.
    5.1 rep trinket, not an option.

    Stamina trinkets, useful if you are going for stamina, but really another category, can't compare directly with the other trinkets.

    So the only two pure tank trinkets left is Lei-Shen, and GID. Which I simply prefer GID as it is easier to swap out Lei-Shen for another trinket than GID. ( Drawback of having hit + exp on a trinket ).
    Stamina trinkets, darkmist and battlemaster being situational.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-14 at 07:37 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #1175
    I am an engineer, but don't see what that has to do with trinket rankings (unless you mean the helm with cogwheels cancelling out using them in the GID).

    Also not sure where/how you're seeing that I've got a lot of prot gear, as I'm in ret set atm. That said, my prot set is 2pc tier (chest/gloves) with rest as heroic offpieces, which does put me square in the camp of hit/exp capped from gear alone. I'm not sure if that renders the rest of your reply as non-applicable to me or not.

    At any rate, I'm certainly not lobbying for anyone to use an avoidance proc trinket, especially not for the proc iteslf. The ICD on VDB isn't terrible, but the ICD on SoN is nearly 2 mins; both are nothing more than a stat (mastery) bank. Lei Shen's proc I rate less poorly, as STR proc is never "wasted" per se, assuming you have uptime on the target. Even if you're offtanking at that point, it's still a DPS contribution. But, again, the main point of that is as a stat bank.

    If you're not very well (read: heroic) geared, then chances are that you will be able to use the stats on GID and in that case, yes, 1800 of a stat is > 1200ish (+/- based on your trinket levels and upgrades, etc). However, that also assumes that you can compensate your reforging to accomodate, an argument that holds true for everyone, and sadly is not always possible. It's precisely that reason that I (and, from your post, you as well) try to get as close as possible without relying on a trinket to hit/exp cap. Relying on GID for accuracy stats means that you're locked to it. Want to use 2x Stam? Gonna be short on accuracy. Want to use 2 strong DPS trinkets (Lei Shen, DMV)? Gonna be short on accuracy.

    I could put on a GID, and throw in Haste, Mastery and Hit/Exp, reforge some thing(s) to move that 600 hit/exp into something else (provided that haste is available on that slot, which isn't always the case) and maybe pick up ~300-600 haste when it's all said and done. However, I'm now "stuck" with that trinket, severely limiting my options.

    That's why I've run (and will continue to run, for this tier at least) Lei Shen's and the Stam/Mastery-on-use setup. Flexibility. I don't NEED the stam on 90% of the stuff I do, and can and do swap in DMV freely if desired for DPS/threat/ranking. Or, I can go 2x stam and still be capped on hit/exp. Though, personally, I find that using the mastery buff during HA or other short-term CDs make physical damage mitigation incredible, which is great on encounters where it matters. Side benefit of that being that I can stand outside for a F+V for extra Vengeance, or save a larger CD for later.

    Again, not saying that the GID is not useful, especially at lower gear/accuracy levels. I just don't know that I'd put a "BiS" tag on it. Honorable mention, certainly...but not a top contender.
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  16. #1176
    Don't see how the trinket providing by far the most secondary stats in this tier is not a top contender.

    The only drawback is that you feel "locked" with it. Mastery uses are awesome btw. I just haven't yet found them really. needed as the tank damage in 10's are so low.

    Though if you have the opinion that the main purpose of the trinkets are the stat banks, then I do not see why not use GID?
    Ofc in your case you are engineer so you cant use optimal cogs. So not worth it then, but otherwise.

    Or, I can't even remember how engineer works anymore. Do you always have cogs or are that only in the crafted helmet?
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-14 at 08:20 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #1177
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Or, I can't even remember how engineer works anymore. Do you always have cogs or are that only in the crafted helmet?
    Crafted helm only

  18. #1178
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Crafted helm only
    Well in that case, GID is as useful for engineers aswell then after they got rid of the crafted helm.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #1179
    I am an engineer, but do not use the helmet (ilvl 476 with no secondary stats aside from the 600 cogs and 180 str meta bonus). All cogs would be available, but the options would be 600 haste, 600 mastery, 600 of some accuracy stat.

    The "problem" I run into is that I've got my accuracy caps from gear, so if I was after a stat-bank trinket, GID would not be as beneficial to me without significant reforging/regemming, which could/would likely end up seeing my trade down on haste (due to my gear-set and current reforges). If I could throw in 600haste x3, then sure, I could and would get beneficial use from the GID. However, with the gear that I have, it'd be a net loss of "good" stats as I'd have to reforge items unfavorably. Example: tier gloves are currently ~400 hit and ~800 dodge -> haste; I would have to put the dodge back on and reforge out of hit to make the accuracy stats on GID useful, but then I'd only get 160 haste from the hit, instead of the 320 haste from the dodge.

    Trinkets are not (or should not be) stat banks; I stated that trinkets like Stuff of Nightmares are essentially stat banks, given that their chance proc of dodge is far from useful to me/us, and on a very long cooldown. Ergo, the trinket is essentially a lump sum of mastery with a proc that has little-to-no bearing on its use.

    An example of a good trinket that is more than merely a stat bank would be Lei Shen's: lump sum of a desired stat, with a helpful (albeit debatably situational) secondary use/effect/proc. Categorically, the stam trinkets fall into this same group of "good" or "useful" by my definition, though YMMV based on your personal valuation of stamina.
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  20. #1180
    Yeah, in most experiences when I have helped protection paladins with their gear, they have always been able to reforge / regem their gear to fit 600 hit and 600 expertise in a good way. I think I saw your armory in prot gear yesterday and saw that you had a lot of hit on your gear and expertise.

    You could probably still fit a mastery, haste, expertise cogs into a GID and get some of that reforged / regemmed expertise into haste/mastery. Lei-Shens proc could almost be considered a stat bank, since it does not really provide any survivability, it is just a dps increase (even though uneven). I often consider most unreliable procs as stat banks.

    And as I said before, hard to compare stamina trinkets to other trinkets. I have not yet found a fight where I want to have stamina trinkets so I have always used two stat trinkets. To which purpose Lei-Shen and GID is by far the two best choices.

    That Lei-Shen and GID are the two best secondary stat trinkets is just beyond questioning. Tho which is better is debatable. If your gear allows for reforging hit and exp, it is basically 600 haste vs the strength proc. If it doesn't, then Lei'Shen usually pulls ahead.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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