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  1. #101
    Mechagnome ayashi's Avatar
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    Last patch changes :
    Eternal Flame: Gutted into oblivion: hot changed (1,393 + 16.0%) -> ( 391 + 4.5% of SP) roughtly ? a third of what it was. No point in arguing on this tier.

    Divine Purpose:25% chance to cause the Divine Purpose. Lasts 8 sec.
    Holy Avenger: Abilities that generate Holy Power will deal 30% additional damage and healing. Still on a 2min CD.
    Sanctified Wrath: Avenging Wrath also increases healing received by 20%. No change in CD either

    DP gets to become a very decent choice (19.5hp/3min), Holy avengy get even better (as if it needed to...), sancty wrathy is potentially useful... given extreme circonstances i guess.
    However i find it doubtful we will find many cases were a +20% healing for 30s on a 3min cd is better than a -30% damage taken for 15s on a 2min cd, I honestly can't think of one at the moment.

  2. #102
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    On top of that, Divine Purpose got a 25% buff from 20% to 25% for a proc chance.

    Eternal Flame got a nerf-diddly-erf though for the tick.

    Can redo some maths tomorrow (basic rudimentary maths yes it will be flawed but it will give a rough idea please don't destroy me like you did last time! ) to find out which is best no as a 25% Divine Purpose buff is huge.
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  3. #103
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayashi View Post
    However i find it doubtful we will find many cases were a +20% healing for 30s on a 3min cd is better than a -30% damage taken for 15s on a 2min cd, I honestly can't think of one at the moment.
    Are you referring to SotR ? In that case, that's more like a -50%+ damage taken for a minimum of 15 sec

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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    Are you referring to SotR ? In that case, that's more like a -50%+ damage taken for a minimum of 15 sec
    Well it's not 50% when compared to SotR's uptime while outside of Holy Avenger, which is what I imagine Ayashi was getting at. It is also just physical damage, so when considering something like Lei Shi...

  5. #105
    Bloodsail Admiral Splosion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    Are you referring to SotR ? In that case, that's more like a -50%+ damage taken for a minimum of 15 sec
    Holy avenger won't be any more than around 16.5 sec (you lose 1gcd at the start, unless you use the spell with 3 holy power already, and the last gcd extends this). It's a maximum of 18sec from the cooldown, and a minimum of far less (especially if you WoG during the duration, which you may well do (magical damage bursts -> SotR does nothing to mitigate them, but WoG helps, especially with Bastion of Glory stacks). The minimum is much lower than the duration of the spell.

    Amusingly, (and somewhat related) thanks to Theck's latest post, small values of haste are bad for our damage.

  6. #106
    Legendary! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    Wow..... What did Eternal Flame do in a past life to deserve such a painful nerf... I mean.... YOWCH

    on to the nice changes
    I've gotta say, even though SW got a nice change (+healing is always good, but not good enough, considering it's only 20%, on a 3minCD) I'll still not be using it...

    However the choice for the other two is... clearer now..
    See IMO, these changes cement DP for me as my go to choice ( even if Holy Avenger does give you the Ashbringer ) for one reason...

    Only DP got buffed in a way that benefits protection.

    They both got buffed, which is always nice, DP's proc chance got raised, and the now bring it into line with the benefits of HA, for lots of yummy free HP moves...

    but then HA got buffed as well... Thing is, the HA buff was to the damage of your Hp generators, this isn't in any way shape or form needed for prot, unless something is VERY different on the Beta, threat (and by extension damage) is a non-issue.

    So given the choice I'd much rather go for DP, as IMO they both offer the same HP over time, but DP is spread out over the course of the fight, as opposed to HA which is all about the burst.

    Maths will no doubt prove me wrong(it usually does), but for my this our talent 'choices' are becoming clearer with every build.
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  7. #107
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elathi View Post
    Well it's not 50% when compared to SotR's uptime while outside of Holy Avenger, which is what I imagine Ayashi was getting at. It is also just physical damage, so when considering something like Lei Shi...
    It definitely is about 50% (Physical, yes) for a minimum of 15 possible sec under the effects of Holy Avenger, though. (Which is what we are talking about, aren't we... ?)

    Holy avenger won't be any more than around 16.5 sec (you lose 1gcd at the start, unless you use the spell with 3 holy power already, and the last gcd extends this). It's a maximum of 18sec from the cooldown, and a minimum of far less (especially if you WoG during the duration, which you may well do (magical damage bursts -> SotR does nothing to mitigate them, but WoG helps, especially with Bastion of Glory stacks). The minimum is much lower than the duration of the spell.
    This build (or maybe next build) should bring the ability to stack SotR buffs. Meaning that if you use SotR while already being under the effects of it, your total SotR duration will jump to 3sec + Xsec, where X is what duration is left. Under Holy Avenger, you could virtually spam SotR very often, leading to a total of more than 18 sec uptime ^^.
    Last edited by Asheriah; 2012-08-08 at 01:13 AM.

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  8. #108
    Mechagnome ayashi's Avatar
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    I like it when people make argument for me ^_^
    But no, i just took the minimal effectiveness possible of HA. In game i'm sure we'll see mastery amounts that will probably make it creep close to 55-60%. Kind of like buffed up extra long GotlK. heck even just in 5.0 it'll probably make most of DS a joke ... well, even more of a joke i mean.
    Not broken at all

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    It definitely is about 50% (Physical, yes) for a minimum of 15 possible sec under the effects of Holy Avenger, though. (Which is what we are talking about, aren't we... ?)
    Forgive me for a lack of clarity, I wasn't refuting that at all. I just mean, to figure out how much a cooldown benefits you, normally one would compare it to a normal rotation without the cooldown.

    So say I have like a 40% uptime of SotR just doing a normal rotation. With 20 mastery, it's about 20% overall damage reduction. When using Holy Avenger, the uptime on SotR becomes 100% for a while. Again with 20 mastery, it's 50% damage reduction, for those 15, 18, 21, or however many seconds. So during that time, an effective gain of about 30% damage reduction.

    But there are so many other factors that go into it, that's such an oversimplified explanation it's probably wrong.

  10. #110
    Mechagnome ayashi's Avatar
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    Paladin (Forums / Skills)
    Item - Paladin T14 Protection 4P Bonus - Increases the healing done by your Word of Glory spell by 10% (was 20%) and increases the damage reduction of your Shield of the Righteous ability by 10%.
    Even moar SoR goodness!

    @Elathi: the issue is that out of AH, the SoR damage reduction is not reliable.
    Well, less reliable, It does take some token amount of skill to align it's 3s buff with whatever spell/attack the boss lanch at you. And of course it doesn't protect against continous damage like ... Hagara frenzy thing ?
    Kind of like the blood DK IBF glyph (-75% duration, -50% cooldown so you can use it twice as much, but you better be real good on when you use it)
    Last edited by ayashi; 2012-08-08 at 02:40 AM.

  11. #111
    Legendary! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    nice change to the bonus, the question is... does it mean a flat 10% bonus so it goes from 30 to 40%, or 10% of the current bonus, so going from 30% to 33%....

    I would assume the former, but given the precedent *cough*Spiritual Attunement getting a 10% bonus... taking it from 10 to 11%*cough* you just can't be sure
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  12. #112
    Bloodsail Admiral Splosion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    This build (or maybe next build) should bring the ability to stack SotR buffs. Meaning that if you use SotR while already being under the effects of it, your total SotR duration will jump to 3sec + Xsec, where X is what duration is left. Under Holy Avenger, you could virtually spam SotR very often, leading to a total of more than 18 sec uptime ^^.
    You're still not going to gain more than a couple of extra seconds, given that 2 gcds = 3 seconds, before haste.

    Holy Avenger does however, look to be the better cooldown that tier for surviving burst physical damage, whilst sanctified wrath is likely the magical counterpart (healing taken). Admittedly, holy avenger does look the strongest of the talents available.

  13. #113
    Mechagnome ayashi's Avatar
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    Anyone knows the conversion rate between mastery rating and raw mastery at level 90 ?
    I put a rought BiS profile in hc gear with completely focused on mastery, which would net me a 9468 mastery from gear, an extra 2880 from gems and 310 from enchants (... btw, that thing about boots enchant, forget it, there is no choise. We will all have the 8% speed anyway), and 3000 from BoM.
    So does anyone knows how much mastery that 15658 would give us at level 90 ?
    I belive it's 600 per mastery point, which would put us at 34 mastery (35 with elixir) so unless i'm mistaken ... 64% damage reduction SoR buff ? 70%-75% with 4p.

  14. #114
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Hello everyone - on my computer this box appears to be greyed out hence my lack of participation in the past day or so. Trying to fix it now, posting on sisters laptop to get this post here. When I fix it, the next thing I want to talk about is stat priorities, gems and enchants.

    My current thinking (and there is not a huge amount of reasoning behind this so far) is as follows:

    Hit (cap) = Expertise (cap) > Mastery > Dodge = Parry

    HOWEVER, whether Exp = Hit til cap is something I don't know until can see what abilities are considered spells and what are considered melee. After this, looking at all mastery does for us, I see that as a strong stat. Also, as I don't see us being CTC, for gems and things I see maybe some hybridisation with stamina rather than pures like we saw in T11. Obviously this comes from my limited play of the PTR and just comes from what I reckon would be most comfortable, but I am at level 85 and seen none of the dungeons and raids.

    Hopefully this post acts as a starting point for some discussion about it Will check this post as I can see things I just can't reply, and then will steal her laptop again later should I need to briefly reply.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-09 at 02:12 PM ----------

    Oh my god it's fixed. I can only assume it was Malthanis as I PM'ed him about it, so thanks if you did, and if not, thanks for replacing the hamster in the wheel as it must have died. Back to paladin thinking then.
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  15. #115
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Hello everyone - on my computer this box appears to be greyed out hence my lack of participation in the past day or so. Trying to fix it now, posting on sisters laptop to get this post here. When I fix it, the next thing I want to talk about is stat priorities, gems and enchants.

    My current thinking (and there is not a huge amount of reasoning behind this so far) is as follows:

    Hit (cap) = Expertise (cap) > Mastery > Dodge = Parry

    HOWEVER, whether Exp = Hit til cap is something I don't know until can see what abilities are considered spells and what are considered melee. After this, looking at all mastery does for us, I see that as a strong stat. Also, as I don't see us being CTC, for gems and things I see maybe some hybridisation with stamina rather than pures like we saw in T11. Obviously this comes from my limited play of the PTR and just comes from what I reckon would be most comfortable, but I am at level 85 and seen none of the dungeons and raids.

    Hopefully this post acts as a starting point for some discussion about it Will check this post as I can see things I just can't reply, and then will steal her laptop again later should I need to briefly reply.
    We won't be able to hit CTC cap anyways. They've moved avoidance/mitigation to a two roll system (not sure if you saw this). First, the game will make the roll to see if we dodge/parry, are missed, or take the hit. If we take the hit, the game then rolls against our block chance. So, example time: we've got a paladin with 12.5% dodge, 12.5% parry, and the base 5% miss chance. That means that there's a combined 30% chance that an attack will not land, and a 70% chance of a hit. If the paladin has a 50% block chance , that means that half of all hits will be blocked (i.e. 35% of all attacks made against the paladin).

    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Oh my god it's fixed. I can only assume it was Malthanis as I PM'ed him about it, so thanks if you did, and if not, thanks for replacing the hamster in the wheel as it must have died. Back to paladin thinking then.
    To be honest, I didn't see the PM notification until I read your post here. You'd be better off posting stuff like that in the Suggestions & Feedback forum, as Sunshine is pretty quick to pick up on technical issues there. I'd still recommend starting a thread there. Curse recently ran a bunch of upgrades to the site, and we'd appreciate any feedback on issues you may have so we can fix/improve things.

  16. #116
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We won't be able to hit CTC cap anyways. They've moved avoidance/mitigation to a two roll system (not sure if you saw this). First, the game will make the roll to see if we dodge/parry, are missed, or take the hit. If we take the hit, the game then rolls against our block chance. So, example time: we've got a paladin with 12.5% dodge, 12.5% parry, and the base 5% miss chance. That means that there's a combined 30% chance that an attack will not land, and a 70% chance of a hit. If the paladin has a 50% block chance , that means that half of all hits will be blocked (i.e. 35% of all attacks made against the paladin).
    Ah ok, I hadn't see that you're right I was under the impression that the diminishing returns graphs (for which I thought block goes off too now?) just sloped off to hard to make it near impossible. I like their solution though, very elegant. Going to stick with my stat priority thought because with mastery benefitting the damage reduction of SHOTR and Bastion of Glory and increasing block fairly quickly then I see it beating the others.

    However, I still like the look of hit and expertise caps so that we regularly and quickly rebuild our Bastion stacks so that we always have a nice sized heal just on the precipice should we require it. I'll do some testing as soon as I can although I'm obviously limited to level 85.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis
    To be honest, I didn't see the PM notification until I read your post here. You'd be better off posting stuff like that in the Suggestions & Feedback forum, as Sunshine is pretty quick to pick up on technical issues there. I'd still recommend starting a thread there. Curse recently ran a bunch of upgrades to the site, and we'd appreciate any feedback on issues you may have so we can fix/improve things.
    Will go and do it now
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  17. #117
    Bloodsail Admiral Splosion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Ah ok, I hadn't see that you're right I was under the impression that the diminishing returns graphs (for which I thought block goes off too now?) just sloped off to hard to make it near impossible. I like their solution though, very elegant. Going to stick with my stat priority thought because with mastery benefitting the damage reduction of SHOTR and Bastion of Glory and increasing block fairly quickly then I see it beating the others.
    The solution doesn't really fix anything, except making mastery far less useful (because the CTC gain from it is lost, your avoidances actually decrease the value of mastery)

    However, I still like the look of hit and expertise caps so that we regularly and quickly rebuild our Bastion stacks so that we always have a nice sized heal just on the precipice should we require it. I'll do some testing as soon as I can although I'm obviously limited to level 85.
    We'll likely be stacking pure avoidances before hit/exp, just because (including the WoG change), the healing from that spell won't be as good, given it doesn't have the Death strike type of scaling, meaning the heal is based on how much damage you just took. Even with a 50% buff from bastion of glory, I doubt it'll scale very well at the start.

  18. #118
    Mechagnome ayashi's Avatar
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    Hit/exp stacking up to cap will most probably be mandatory. Having a ~20% lesser HP generation and therfor 20% lesser SoR uptime and WoG healing will simply not cut it

  19. #119
    Bloodsail Admiral Splosion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayashi View Post
    Hit/exp stacking up to cap will most probably be mandatory. Having a ~20% lesser HP generation and therfor 20% lesser SoR uptime and WoG healing will simply not cut it
    Most likely, but not definitely. As per beta, there is plenty of hit/expertise enchants (with no visible tanking alternative), as well as our tier pieces having hit and expertise almost across the board(Everything except legs has either hit or expertise), I can't see it as being that much of an issue. The SotR buff will be up no matter if the attack lands or not (Much like current DS), which devalues hit/expertise.

  20. #120
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splosion View Post
    Most likely, but not definitely. As per beta, there is plenty of hit/expertise enchants (with no visible tanking alternative), as well as our tier pieces having hit and expertise almost across the board(Everything except legs has either hit or expertise), I can't see it as being that much of an issue. The SotR buff will be up no matter if the attack lands or not (Much like current DS), which devalues hit/expertise.
    True but if you don't generate the holy power to begin with, then no shield. Also, maybe it's just the fact I've been awake for all of 30seconds but... What SHOTR buff? If you mean Sacred Duty then cool but all that does is net us a crit for more damage on live, in MOP, the things that hit and exp will solve is going to holy power generation and with the active mitigation they're going for, having the holy power is very highly required relative to now as we can just hit a cooldown or something - come MOP we'll need to WoG/EF/Shotr dependent on the situation.

    That said, once I find out exactly how many stat points of hit/exp it will take to cap at level 90 and then how much you get from enchants that there are no alternatives to, and then we get some on gear... we may not have to worry about reforging an awful lot. Even on top of that, as I think this is what Splosion is getting at, actually going out of your way to get those hit/expertise caps may not be required because after those enchants and just general gear we may be close to hit/expertise caps anyway, so it's not a case of "have ALL the holy power" or "Have 20% less holy power than that guy" because those are the extremes, and those extremes are very unlikely to happen. Dependent on how bad it may feel, it may just be a case of "enough hit/exp until you feel comfortable with your holy power regen, enough to keep you alive".

    Aaaanyway, this will make for some interesting discussion as to how far to go with hit/expertise and then after that, what to begin getting stat wise. Looking at it, I still personally think Mastery will come ahead of dodge and parry but not to the extent that it does on live, due to it increasing damage reduction from SHOTR effect, increasing block chance and increasing Bastion of Glory heals, so it will affect all our heals. Again however, I was/am under the impression that Mastery gets diminishing returns like block and parry do, come MOP? Therefore, with the Mastery buff they're implementing, it wont be such a "get mastery or you suck" situation with proper avoidance stats getting some attention as well.
    Last edited by MerinPally; 2012-08-10 at 10:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
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