1. #1361
    That is actually a sick dps increase.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #1362
    15 RPPM means 15*1.2 (20% haste) stacks per minute, which is = 3.6 strikes per minute @120k damage each, or 436000 per 60 seconds, or 7200 damage per second on average.
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  3. #1363
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    15 RPPM means 15*1.2 (20% haste) stacks per minute, which is = 3.6 strikes per minute @120k damage each, or 436000 per 60 seconds, or 7200 damage per second on average.
    Talk like that is making miss Reckoning more and more.

    But I'll agree, I'm probably going to end up taking this over the "tank" meta. It's just too much damage to pass up.

  4. #1364
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    Talk like that is making miss Reckoning more and more.

    But I'll agree, I'm probably going to end up taking this over the "tank" meta. It's just too much damage to pass up.
    And they are likely going to put in some sort of smartfix that'll make it useless for tanks. I think we're reaching a point where the line between tanks and DPS are becoming bit too blurried. I think that tank DPS being an important and viable part of meeting certain enrage timers and so on is a good thing, but i don't think the developers like where this is heading. And neither do i to be honest, i would like to see traditional tanking stats like dodge and parry have some kind of interesting effect on our DPS, and additionally i would like to see tank damage from bosses tuned better across the board so that neglecting something like the tank meta actually hurts. (which would mean more vengeance=DPS anyway)

    Maybe making it reduce magical damage aswell would help, seeing how prot paladins have got the physical part pretty much covered with how we're designed. Ultimately i don't like the lack of control when it comes to defense. While it is "chance on being hit" instead of "chance on hit" it can effectively proc 10/10 times right before a part with no physical damage over the course of an attempt.

  5. #1365
    How about implementing the "deflect" mechanic as part of dodge and parry?

    "When an enemy attempts to cast a spell at you, your Parry and Dodge chances added up grant you the same chance to deflect the spell, reducing its damage by x%"
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  6. #1366
    Quote Originally Posted by Tossy View Post
    And they are likely going to put in some sort of smartfix that'll make it useless for tanks. I think we're reaching a point where the line between tanks and DPS are becoming bit too blurried. I think that tank DPS being an important and viable part of meeting certain enrage timers and so on is a good thing, but i don't think the developers like where this is heading. And neither do i to be honest, i would like to see traditional tanking stats like dodge and parry have some kind of interesting effect on our DPS, and additionally i would like to see tank damage from bosses tuned better across the board so that neglecting something like the tank meta actually hurts. (which would mean more vengeance=DPS anyway)
    Where asother tanks, like me, would like to see stats like dodge and parry removed (strength parry remain).
    Devs to start developing smarter set bonuses, trinkets and in this case meta gems so that tanks actually want them
    Bosses tank damage output increased so that tanking actually is an issue.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #1367
    Hey there,

    im somewhat new to prot pally tanking, just rerolled from guardian druid.

    I actually go for hit/exp and then haste. My simple question is, in 5.2 are there any changes back from haste to another stat? I read the patchnotes but couldnt find a hint, that there are some changes.

    Sorry, my prot pally knowlegde is really bad actually, but our setup favours a pally over a druid so i changed my class.

    Would be very nice, if someone can shortly answer my question

  8. #1368
    Quote Originally Posted by Killerfrosch View Post
    Hey there,

    im somewhat new to prot pally tanking, just rerolled from guardian druid.
    Short answer would be no. Keep on hasting.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #1369
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Where asother tanks, like me, would like to see stats like dodge and parry removed (strength parry remain).
    Devs to start developing smarter set bonuses, trinkets and in this case meta gems so that tanks actually want them
    Bosses tank damage output increased so that tanking actually is an issue.
    That'd work too, i don't care much either way if they remove it or manage to make it interesting. But yeah, boss tank damage, especially on 10-man needs to increase on heroic. That was just painfully obvious this tier.

  10. #1370
    I think that the 'new' system of tanks being an active part of the raid dps is much better than the old one. Tanks are actually integrated in the raid group and needs to perform well now. We are not just meat bags. If we just go over the last couple of expansion.

    Wrath: Get as much stamina and armor as you can. Secondary stats does not matter for shit except block value on some unique fights (anub'arak 25hc hello).
    Getting your gear meant nothing except more stamina, bigger meat wall. Tanking was dull and boring. It was basically, keep aggro and keep positioning.

    Cata: Tanking was actually in a good spot here in the start of the expansion. We had the goal to acheive block cap. Which was a fun journey for a lot of us. Getting an item felt something. "Yay I got closer to the block cap!".
    The drawback of course was, well, block cap. Having one forced goal to reach and before reaching that goal you were kinda weak. Also, even though it felt more fun, it was still kinda 1 route to rule them all. Not that much choice. I believe that the actual fights atleast in T11 was balanced better for tanks. Tank damage was a threat and we had to play properly. A lot of fights actively incorporated tanks and we had to do a lot of shit to do the best we can.
    As the expansion went on, we reached the block cap easily, and it all just became the old get more stamina, be a meat wall, profit. T12 and T13 fights was kinda boring from tank PoV, not as well designed as T11.

    MoP: Active choice between survivability or damage output. Tank damage actually a big part of raid damage especially in 10's. Tanks need perform well in terms of dps.
    Active mitigation arguably makes tanking more "skill requiring", however I think that the T14 boss fights was very badly designed for tanks. If we had active mitigation in T11, that would have been another story
    The biggest problem in T11, especially in 10's, have been the lack of threat that bosses pose to tanks. Making the survivability vs damage output a no brainer.'


    All expansions:
    One thing that I believe is that blizzard never understands what tanks want, and why. Feels like our set bonuses are often very badly designed, or insanely OP, there is no middle ground. They are very poor at designing tank only stuff for us, like the meta gem. They design horrible trinkets etc. The question is maybe, do the tanks even understand what they want themselves?

    Dodge and parry has always been undesirable, in all expansions. In wrath, they were simply the best we had. In cata, they just served purpose to fill up the CTC, though CTC was best reached with mastery to get more stamina.

    Dodge and parry has just always been that ugly drunk chick that you pick up just before the bar closes.
    A last resort, the best available at the time, though they have never been desired.

    If you ask me, I believe the old systems are the more flawed. Dodge and parry just does not work well. Tanks do not want RNG, blizzard needs to understand this. TDR does not matter. The new system is a lot better because tanks get a more important role.

    The best way that I believe tanks to take in terms of design.
    Bosses should be designed more like T11 for tanks, a lot more active decisions, movement, positioning, insane tank damage, etc. Fights were just more interactive.
    Stay the way it is with active mitigaiton, tanks damage output etc.
    Dodge and parry removed, maybe replaced with other stats.
    Either remove dodge and parry and have dps and tanks share gear.
    Or if they feel inclined to still have tank gear, maybe block and block value would be interesting instead? Not perfect but would be better than dodge and parry.
    Better designed set bonuses and trinkets.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #1371
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Does anybody else miss the damage-focused 2-piece set bonuses? I enjoyed the +fire damage on the T12 set. With the larger focus on tank DPS output, maybe they could go back to that particular design standard to highlight the duality of a tank's responsibilities. Obviously, they'd still have the DPS bonus as the 2-piece, because it puts less emphasis on it, with the major defensive bonus as the 4-piece.

  12. #1372
    My 60k estimation was based on 1) 10man vengeance levels, 2) t14 style damage/veng levels on non-gimmick fights, and 3) normal modes. Obviously myself and many of you do not adhere to all of these parameters, but I wanted to give an estimate on the low side, rather than high side.

    ----

    I miss block value a lot Playing a warrior in Vanilla, I loved the on-use block value trinket from Sapphiron and the block librams in ZG, allowed me to do old content and take zero damage, as well as scaled up shield slam. Was fun too, in PVP, popping Sapph trinket and 2-shotting cloth with slams. It really helped take the edge off during AOE tanking (Gothik) or fast hitting bosses (Patchwerk), and was a visceral upgrade, as you SAW the larger blocks.

    At any rate, I doubt we'll see its return since the advent of DK tanks and the fact that they want homogeneity in "tank gear", such that all things need to be usable by all tanks for some reason. Hence, we get that shitty dodge trinket in t15.

    They just need to bite the bullet and remove "traditional" tank plate; allow STR to give parry, maybe even at an increased rate, similar to AGI-> Dodge conversion for leather tanks. Tank plate is archaic and dated, and avoided by Prot pal and a significant portion of DKs who favor accuracy/mastery from DPS or hybrid itemization.

    Or, they can make tank damage intake meaningful again. The ONLY time this tier that I had a tight-butthole moment was HC Empress on windblades, which was fun and refreshing from the traditional monotony of just trying to push out DPS since I was in no danger. That said, I never did get to do H Sha (sadface) to experience the dread thrash and N+A, but I can imagine that's more about timing than pure throughput. Making tank damage meaningful MAY see a shift back to preference of "tank" set bonuses at least, but we'd still be avoiding avoidance in favor of haste/mastery for ShotR coverage.

    I dunno, the days of the holy trinity are drawing close to an end in this era of gaming. Pure DPS spec's are healing for more than hybrids, tanks are doing more DPS than actual DPS classes and foregoing tank stats, and healers are damn near tanks in PVP.

    It feels like I'm taking crazy pills! /Mugatu
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  13. #1373
    Your 60k for normal modes is still a very low number, even off-specing some normal MSV I could get considerably more than that

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    They just need to bite the bullet and remove "traditional" tank plate; allow STR to give parry, maybe even at an increased rate, similar to AGI-> Dodge conversion for leather tanks. Tank plate is archaic and dated, and avoided by Prot pal and a significant portion of DKs who favor accuracy/mastery from DPS or hybrid itemization.
    Warriors should also care more about 'dps' plate, not to the same extreme as Protadins and DKs but, still no love for tank plate at all anymore

    Would like to see them just simplify tanks into active mitigation DPS machines, remove all pure defensive stats and slightly rework Revenge style mechanics, with a much higher emphasis on active mitigation and timing based systems. Imagine if playing a raiding tank was more like playing an action RPG or Fighting Game, how much better would it be to feel like you could, given a high skill level, reduce damage taken on every major boss mechanic by a significant margin?

  14. #1374
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Your 60k for normal modes is still a very low number, even off-specing some normal MSV I could get considerably more than that
    60k would be a total AP level of 80k, so ~55k in vengeance assuming decent levels of gear and the AP raid buff. Yes, we all know you (and everyone else) can get more AP than that. 60k was a number I put out for AVERAGE vengeance levels in a tier that facilitates lots of 2-tanking, and was low on purpose. If it is causing that much of a stumbling block in the discussion, I can edit the post to put it up to a higher value. The point was to illustrate that it can and does scale with AP.

    Would like to see them just simplify tanks into active mitigation DPS machines, remove all pure defensive stats and slightly rework Revenge style mechanics, with a much higher emphasis on active mitigation and timing based systems. Imagine if playing a raiding tank was more like playing an action RPG or Fighting Game, how much better would it be to feel like you could, given a high skill level, reduce damage taken on every major boss mechanic by a significant margin?
    Isn't that what the AM system did already?
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  15. #1375
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    60k would be a total AP level of 80k, so ~55k in vengeance assuming decent levels of gear and the AP raid buff. Yes, we all know you (and everyone else) can get more AP than that. 60k was a number I put out for AVERAGE vengeance levels in a tier that facilitates lots of 2-tanking, and was low on purpose. If it is causing that much of a stumbling block in the discussion, I can edit the post to put it up to a higher value. The point was to illustrate that it can and does scale with AP.
    One does not simply state a random number on the paladin forums!

    23
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #1376
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    One does not simply state a random number on the paladin forums!

    23
    Random is as random does, I suppose. I took an average of +120k Veng (while tanking) and baseline 24k AP (no Veng) and split the difference to account for things like tank swaps, phase changes, etc. Sadly, it seems that the primary point was lost in translation.

    On a related note, the lightning strike SHOULD be affected by CoE-type effects, correct?

    Also, 17.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  17. #1377
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Random is as random does, I suppose. I took an average of +120k Veng (while tanking) and baseline 24k AP (no Veng) and split the difference to account for things like tank swaps, phase changes, etc. Sadly, it seems that the primary point was lost in translation.

    On a related note, the lightning strike SHOULD be affected by CoE-type effects, correct?

    Also, 17.
    Yeah, it should be affected by CoE effects. Would be weird if it was not.

    72
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #1378
    Banned MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    Does anybody else miss the damage-focused 2-piece set bonuses? I enjoyed the +fire damage on the T12 set. With the larger focus on tank DPS output, maybe they could go back to that particular design standard to highlight the duality of a tank's responsibilities. Obviously, they'd still have the DPS bonus as the 2-piece, because it puts less emphasis on it, with the major defensive bonus as the 4-piece.
    I miss it. Then also, people would actually take tier gear because whilst a lot of prot paladins do take tier gear, a decent amount don't at all until after everyone. If our bonuses are deemed that useless to us that we don't bother using them then maybe a change is needed and that kind of change would make sure we fight for it - if it was any good and benefited from haste in some form.

  19. #1379
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Isn't that what the AM system did already?
    It does, but we still have Dodge and Parry leeching from the system, would make tanking more interesting if dodge and parry where rolled into active mitigation and would allow for easier Plate itemisation

  20. #1380
    So which is better for gemming and forging now, Haste or Mastery? After hit/exp cap of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorehowl View Post
    BOSS IS TANKED BY 1 TANK, OTHER TANK JUST JERKS OFF TILL THAT ONE ADD COMES OUT LOL SO FUN
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight Gil View Post
    Dear sir, would you kindly stop saying such retarded bullshit?

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