1. #1841
    Knew I forgot something
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #1842
    Banned MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felir View Post
    You forgot italic
    That pretty much killed it. :/

  3. #1843
    Epic! GenaiTN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Knew I forgot something
    Pleasure.

    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    That pretty much killed it. :/
    wat

  4. #1844
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    When comparing the haste and the mastery build, i feel like a) mastery would be better in burst dmg scenarios b) we take haste because it provides ~ dmg mitigation but a fair bit more dps.
    Your "feelings" are irrelevant, there is a ton of simulation data with varying methodologies.

  5. #1845
    Quote Originally Posted by underdogba View Post
    Your "feelings" are irrelevant, there is a ton of simulation data with varying methodologies.
    Alright.
    (inb4 theck's blog link)
    Link me "Tons" of simulation data with varying methdologies for an actual boss fight, not static dps on tank.
    Using something called LOGIC (because "feelings" are irrelevant) we can see that on a "Burst" dmg scenario (triple puncture, etc) mastery will be better. Why ? Because if that is our main concern it doesn't matter if we can get 2 SotR between punctures of 4. All it matters is how much the "burst" will hit us for, and mastery will help us the most in those cases.

  6. #1846
    haste = more uptime on sotr buff. this tier you can reach 50%+ uptime. np

  7. #1847
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Anyone got logs to someone using tank one.

    The thing I get with the tanking one, is kinda the improved version of dodge/parry. You simply can not guarantee its uptime, or control its procs in any way. I can survive without the meta gem, why do I need it? Unless it got like 70-80% uptime, I will probably not use it.

    Its good, but not that good as nothing stops it from being down when I actually need it.
    Edit: I'll test it on farm and keep using the dps one tonight for progression

    I had the same reasoning against not taking the tank one in the first place. I mean by no means is it bad...but it's not something that's going to have saved me in the past, and the extra 10-20k dps from the Dps one is just nice free damage that makes fights easier.

    I'm sure the tank one has it's uses on some fights, and they'll likely try and push us to using it eventually anyways.
    Last edited by YataZuljin; 2013-04-11 at 10:19 PM.

  8. #1848
    Quote Originally Posted by youlowgee View Post
    haste = more uptime on sotr buff. this tier you can reach 50%+ uptime. np
    You were able to reach 50% in the previous tier.



  9. #1849
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Alright.
    (inb4 theck's blog link)
    Link me "Tons" of simulation data with varying methdologies for an actual boss fight, not static dps on tank.
    Using something called LOGIC (because "feelings" are irrelevant) we can see that on a "Burst" dmg scenario (triple puncture, etc) mastery will be better. Why ? Because if that is our main concern it doesn't matter if we can get 2 SotR between punctures of 4. All it matters is how much the "burst" will hit us for, and mastery will help us the most in those cases.
    I'm not interested in linking anything, you're more than capable of using a search engine.

    I'm concerned that you don't really understand what haste actually does as a survival stat if that's what you're arguing. Read your tooltips and think about the ramifications of having more haste and how that relates to what playing in the real world is like, and then maybe we can have a conversation.

    I'll give you a hint. You spend HoPo at 5 right as a generator is coming up, so you always have coverage on triple puncture, and the extra SotR uptime still happens and the faster SS ticks still happen and you swing faster with more insight procs, and you go into the triple puncture with more health on average. You know who enjoys it when a tank is a lower-maintenance healing target like that? Healers.

    Unless you don't have the health pool to support taking the triple puncture in the first place, the size of your SotR mitigation is not really important in practice compared to simply hitting it, because healers know you're taking a big shot and will be prepared. What kills you is being low health coming into it and healers not being able to react fast enough.

    Now is that about "static dps on tank"? This is not exactly rocket science.
    Last edited by underdogba; 2013-04-11 at 08:19 PM.

  10. #1850
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Alright.
    (inb4 theck's blog link)
    Link me "Tons" of simulation data with varying methdologies for an actual boss fight, not static dps on tank.
    Using something called LOGIC (because "feelings" are irrelevant) we can see that on a "Burst" dmg scenario (triple puncture, etc) mastery will be better. Why ? Because if that is our main concern it doesn't matter if we can get 2 SotR between punctures of 4. All it matters is how much the "burst" will hit us for, and mastery will help us the most in those cases.
    I like you.

    We need more protadins that think for themselves and use logic
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #1851
    Banned MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felir View Post
    wat
    Say wat gurlfrend.

  12. #1852
    Quote Originally Posted by underdogba View Post
    I'm not interested in linking anything, you're more than capable of using a search engine.

    I'm concerned that you don't really understand what haste actually does as a survival stat if that's what you're arguing. Read your tooltips and think about the ramifications of having more haste and how that relates to what playing in the real world is like, and then maybe we can have a conversation.

    I'll give you a hint. You spend HoPo at 5 right as a generator is coming up, so you always have coverage on triple puncture, and the extra SotR uptime still happens and the faster SS ticks still happen and you swing faster with more insight procs, and you go into the triple puncture with more health on average. You know who enjoys it when a tank is a lower-maintenance healing target like that? Healers.

    Unless you don't have the health pool to support taking the triple puncture in the first place, the size of your SotR mitigation is not really important in practice compared to simply hitting it, because healers know you're taking a big shot and will be prepared. What kills you is being low health coming into it and healers not being able to react fast enough.
    This has nothing to do with burst. Burst dmg is getting tripple puncture while having 25+ stacks of debuff on you. Burst dmg is getting talon rake with 2+ stacks of debuff on you. Even if you have 200% haste and have 100% uptime on your SotR, even then, 20% will help you more with *burst* dmg. Yes you're going to take more dmg overall, yes the healers will have to heal you harder but at some point unless you get that mastery you just won't survive the "burst" dmg.

    While i still prefer haste over mastery (for the same reasons you mentioned such as higher uptime on SotR, more hps, more absorbs, more healing the raid etc), there's basically no argument for what's better for mitigating "burst", the only time it would be true is when you can't get SotR for every single "burst" attack, but it's unlikely, and even if so, as soon as we have enough haste to cover for that we would start building for mastery.

    Also, not to say that you're talking out of your ass or anything, but the only simulation I've seen is Theck's blog which doesn't deal with any "boss fights", and even if you are talking about his simulations, there isn't "tons" of simulation data. There's a few scenarios (none of which represent any relevant boss fight btw) which show how certain gear performs in certain situations.

  13. #1853
    This has nothing to do with burst. Burst dmg is getting tripple puncture while having 25+ stacks of debuff on you. Burst dmg is getting talon rake with 2+ stacks of debuff on you.
    Why the bathplug would you let TP stack to 25?
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  14. #1854
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Why the bathplug would you let TP stack to 25?
    a) Trying to see how long you can survive
    b) Veng
    c) a+b = shits and giggles.

    But normally don't reset it before 15 which is 2 gates, with a little bit of extra mastery most likely wouldn't even have problem with 25+

    But again, this is more an indication of my definition of "burst" dmg. Not the theck's "boss auto swings", and not the "well you require less healing"

  15. #1855
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    You were able to reach 50% in the previous tier.
    have ~68-71% on a lot of bosses. unless there's a nerf to haste/sanctity we might reach 85%+ next tier. which is insane.
    Shootz' Law (Cya Godwin)
    As an MMO-Champion discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving 25s and 10s approaches 1. In other words, Shootz observed that, given enough time, in any MMO-Champion discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably makes a comparison between 25s and 10s.

  16. #1856
    10531 haste rating
    670k life unbuffed

    Things are starting to look up.
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  17. #1857
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Why the bathplug would you let TP stack to 25?
    It's still less dangerous than p2 on heroic ~
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  18. #1858
    Epic! GenaiTN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Say wat gurlfrend.
    No srsly I had no idea what you meant.

  19. #1859
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    10531 haste rating
    670k life unbuffed

    Things are starting to look up.
    I assume you are using some kind of stamina trinket/gems.
    I sit at 15.5k haste and 618k hp unbuffed.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
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  20. #1860
    Quote Originally Posted by zora View Post
    have ~68-71% on a lot of bosses. unless there's a nerf to haste/sanctity we might reach 85%+ next tier. which is insane.
    Is this with DP? Or with HA?

    I'm using DP more now, on standstill fights like Tortos (I MT, BrM kites), but it's still not to my liking. I know it's "supposed to be better", but 25% is RNG is RNG. To be fair, I've not really looked over my uptimes, but it feels like I'm not quite there yet. Though that could be a gear issue....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    I assume you are using some kind of stamina trinket/gems.
    I sit at 15.5k haste and 618k hp unbuffed.
    Which leads me to this. I'm sitting at 14.5k haste and ~620k. I'm still hit capped but dropped a bit of expertise (down to 13.5). Even so, I feel like I'm reaching a point where stats would be better pushed into something else, like Mastery, for progression anyway. Are any of you guys aiming for a "haste platform" before moving to another stat focus? Is haste still scaling linearly, or are we going to reach an inflection point in it's scaling at some level? Obviously, 50% is the "cap", but wondering about any levels prior.
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