1. #1901
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Is the caster Meta viable? It's 30% haste and procs from spells so I guess Exorcism, Judgement, Consecration and lvl90 talents would trigger it?


  2. #1902
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    Prot Paladins don't have Exorcism. The others are spells but surely the proc rate would be low as fuck unless it's on RPPM. Also, the damage from the dps one is insane apparently.
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  3. #1903
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Is the caster Meta viable? It's 30% haste and procs from spells so I guess Exorcism, Judgement, Consecration and lvl90 talents would trigger it?
    Would probably only proc from Consecration knowing Blizzard's system, and as Merin said (aka captain banned ) the DPS one is crazy right now

  4. #1904
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Would probably only proc from Consecration knowing Blizzard's system, and as Merin said (aka captain banned ) the DPS one is crazy right now
    I got banned for telling someone not to confuse intelligence and knowledge, but not to worry because they lack both. When he saw I got banned the guy PM'ed me trying to take the piss, was funny. He deserved it anyway. Apparently Sir Tim Berners-Lee had nothing to do with the evolution of the internet and it was Americans all the way. Oh and that every film is american and every game is american.
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  5. #1905
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Prot Paladins don't have Exorcism. The others are spells but surely the proc rate would be low as fuck unless it's on RPPM. Also, the damage from the dps one is insane apparently.
    Yea, nvm Exorcism, had a long session of PvP so I still had it in the back of my mind.

    I think they posted the RPPM values for one of those metas somewhere, gotta search the blue stuff.


  6. #1906
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Is the caster Meta viable? It's 30% haste and procs from spells so I guess Exorcism, Judgement, Consecration and lvl90 talents would trigger it?
    Spell haste doesn't affect Sanctity of Battle.

    Also Judgment's not a spell. :P

  7. #1907
    Noticed thid thread http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...hp?f=6&t=33374
    and was saddened by the response or lack there off the OP recieved. The OP was actually a lot smarter then the only reply he recieved.
    The only replied he recieved linked him to a very outdated crude simulation, that contained so many errors, that did not answer his question at all.


    Yes to that op, haste is better after soft cap (unless veryhigh haste values)
    both in dps and survivability. Granted you bank
    Hopo properly.
    Also funny how his second question got so dismissed, as it is something that I have been holding back (since max surv has not been issue)
    But that poster was surely 5 steps ahead of the others on that forum and got dismissed :S i should get account there so i could reply, even 30 days late. Yes, on fights with predictable damage burst, a build close to what he asked (drop the avoidance)
    The strongest survivabilty build then (granted you have enough time to build up hopo even with misses)
    would be mastery>stam>hit>exp7.5>haste>exp.
    At some mastery values trinket conversion stam pulls ahead.
    If fights asks for more hopo regen hit and exp7.5 pulls ahead aswell.
    But mastery stacking is something that sadly gets overlooked way to much.

    Granted, I still prefer haste because of the DPS. Survivability is not a concern of mine.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-04-21 at 08:46 PM.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  8. #1908
    So we should only really be going to the expertise soft cap?

    I assume being at the expertise hard cap is a dps increase but you gain more survivabilty from being at the soft cap?

  9. #1909
    Epic! rawhammer's Avatar
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    tbh I don't think it matters what you do as tank, it's the rest of the raid you have to worry about :/

    /rant at wiping at 0.2% on lei shen twice in 1 night.
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  10. #1910
    There are so many viable ways to do it these days, that so long as you aren't dying or pushing the bleeding edge of raiding it doesn't really matter what you do. Play how you feel is best and how it suits you best.
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  11. #1911
    Yeah, there are truely a million viable ways, however some gearing strategies have a goal, be it max hp, max hopo regen, max dps, max sotr etc, so you can easily look inside a category and say which performs better but comparing them is hard.
    Just so annoying when people claim 'X is the only way' when Y works the same way and does a better job at it
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #1912
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurhlag View Post
    So we should only really be going to the expertise soft cap?

    I assume being at the expertise hard cap is a dps increase but you gain more survivabilty from being at the soft cap?
    You just have to ask yourself if you'd rather be slightly better overall, or have a more reliable rotation/HP generation
    As has been said, entirely up to you and your raid

  13. #1913
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurhlag View Post
    So we should only really be going to the expertise soft cap?

    I assume being at the expertise hard cap is a dps increase but you gain more survivabilty from being at the soft cap?
    Actually it's the other way around.

    Being at the expertise hard cap is a major survivability increase, whereas if you were optimising for DPS the value of expertise as a DPS stat drops significantly after the soft cap.

    The reasoning is that going from 7.5% to 15% guarantees that your holy point builders will hit, which guarantees that you'll get to use your SotR as much as possible. Whereas the holy point builders are actually pretty poor DPS abilities, with effects like AS, HW, HoW & Cons all beating them in the damage-per-cast stakes.

    You can find the explanation on the stat values for DPS by fully reading the Stat Comparison section of the Matlab thread. The value of expertise hardcap versus softcap for mitigation is covered in some of Theck's posts on Sacredduty.net, but I can't for the life of me remember which ones atm.. they'd have been in september/december 2012 at the latest, but quite possibly back in the MoP beta.

    Most of the advice you see coming from Theck & Sacredduty.net is survivability-related (e.g. hardcap expertise, gear heavily into stamina). Advice like "gem haste instead of stam" is deliberately sacrificing survivability for DPS/HPS, which may well be advantageous for your raid (more dps is always good, shorter fights mean you have to survive less time) but isn't strictly speaking a survival boost at a personal level. Because the askmrrobot & icy-veins approaches are the result of consulting with Theck, they have a heavier bias towards survival stats than much of the community (especially the top end raiders).

    And in the case of noxxic, I got no idea what they're smoking. Some of their advice is flat out rubbish (e.g. their "survival" stat weights)
    Last edited by lakhesis; 2013-04-22 at 10:35 AM.

  14. #1914
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakhesis View Post
    And in the case of noxxic, I got no idea what they're smoking. Some of their advice is flat out rubbish (e.g. their "survival" stat weights)
    This may be a stupid pet peeve but what bothers me the most about noxxic's guide is that it recommends ES as the "to-go" talent without any consideration for the other two. Maybe I just care too much about helping with raid healing but I don't ever remember doing progression using ES.


  15. #1915
    Please ellaborate why expertise hard cap is a bigger survival increase than haste when the raw hopo regen of haste is significantly more, which in the end is the point of exp/haste, hopo regen.

    Proper Hopo management nullifies the reliability issues of being below exp soft cap.

    Not to mention added SS speed.

    Also remember that theck has not revisited exp hard vs soft cap since his simulations was very crude. Now with SS and shify queue i wouldnt be suprised if haste pulled ahead if exp soft cap even in thecks simple patchwerksimulation.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #1916
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    This may be a stupid pet peeve but what bothers me the most about noxxic's guide is that it recommends ES as the "to-go" talent without any consideration for the other two. Maybe I just care too much about helping with raid healing but I don't ever remember doing progression using ES.
    It is the highest DPS choice in that tier. You can see a lot of tanks taking it for Ra'den, as that appears to be primarily a dps race with an extremely tight enrage timer.

    Doesn't make it "better" in every case though; Holy Prism and Hammer of Light are arguably "better" on pretty much all of the other ToT fights as the raid damage is a significant part of the challenge of the encounter.
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  17. #1917
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    It is the highest DPS choice in that tier. You can see a lot of tanks taking it for Ra'den, as that appears to be primarily a dps race with an extremely tight enrage timer.

    Doesn't make it "better" in every case though; Holy Prism and Hammer of Light are arguably "better" on pretty much all of the other ToT fights as the raid damage is a significant part of the challenge of the encounter.
    Agreed, but.... i a) don't see a lot of tanks on ra-den b) don't see a reason why it would be advocated as such when it is marginally better on 1 out of 25 fights.

  18. #1918
    Hmm, it appears that I would only gain about 300 haste rating by reforging away all that expertise (. It would all end up being stuck into Mastery (which doesn't increase uptime). While it would be nice to get another 3.5% more ShoR reduction and a bigger WoG, I'm not sure it is worth the trade-in of the reliability of 7.5/15%.
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  19. #1919
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Agreed, but.... i a) don't see a lot of tanks on ra-den b) don't see a reason why it would be advocated as such when it is marginally better on 1 out of 25 fights.
    Most likely because all noxxic is attempting to do is give people a very very very brief overview of the class/spec, and in the case of playing a protadin at a basic level ES is probably the "best" talent just for the extra threat it can give through damage, or extra burst heal on yourself. And since it's a general guide, they can't really say HP or LH is best because fights with no raid AoE do occasionally happen and HP and LH would be pretty meh for those.

    At least that's why I think noxxic lists that talent as best. None of their guides are really in depth enough to get anything other than the names of gems from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Hmm, it appears that I would only gain about 300 haste rating by reforging away all that expertise
    I gained more than that swapping from dwarf to human o.O. Kinda wanna go play around with my gear now to see what I get.

    EDIT: Went and played with it a bit. Forged out of 1818 exp into haste and yeah knocked 0.12 secs off my CS cd, but went and beat on a training dummy for a few minutes and the entire being parried on like half of my SoTR really kinda makes me believe this is a dps loss...
    Last edited by britishbubba; 2013-04-22 at 11:53 AM.

  20. #1920
    Quote Originally Posted by britishbubba View Post
    I gained more than that swapping from dwarf to human o.O. Kinda wanna go play around with my gear now to see what I get.

    EDIT: Went and played with it a bit. Forged out of 1818 exp into haste and yeah knocked 0.12 secs off my CS cd, but went and beat on a training dummy for a few minutes and the entire being parried on like half of my SoTR really kinda makes me believe this is a dps loss...
    My trouble is, I already have haste on all but two items that are reforgeable, and of those items I have not one where I have had to reforge haste into expertise. I could replace some of the expertise/stamina gems with haste/stamina, that would be about 1300 haste rating. But I still don't think that trade-off is worth it.
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