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  1. #1
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    [MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

    I have been playing the game since the launch of Burning Crusade. I played a hunter at first and after about 6 months, began playing my paladin which healed at first but about 80% of the way through Burning Crusade, respecced protection and remained that way ever since. In WOTLK I began raid leading as well as maintanking all the content on both 10 and 25man (outside of the last bosses on heroic) and then come Cataclysm I began aiding running a guild, and after being ranked 40th on the server in T11, jumped to 9th in Firelands and 5th in Dragon Soul. Tanked and raid lead full clears of Dragon Soul heroic multiple times and been an avid forum follower/tester in game of protection paladin functions, to help provide myself and others with the required information to be awesome.

    About: This thread is multipurpose! It is both a guide and also a question and answer/ask here for help thread! Please feel free to ask for help or a question about the spec, just make sure you post your armory link so we can help faster!

    Key to the thread - hit ctrl + f and type in the code to get to the section you desire!

    a1 = Acronyms

    h1 = Passives from Protection Specialization

    f1 = level 15 talents
    f2 = level 30 talents
    f3 = level 45 talents
    f4 = level 60 talents
    f5 = level 75 talents
    f6 = level 90 talents

    All links to talents are summaries of the 3 options.

    g1 = minor glyphs
    g2 = major glyphs

    p1 = Rotation

    k1 = Suggested specs and glyphs, Raiding + Challenge Modes

    z1 = Stat priority, reforging, gemming, enchanting, consumables

    v1 = Changelog
    ______________________________________________________________________________________

    (a1) Acronyms

    A lot of acronyms will be used in this thread as the latest few pages are always worth a read and will have some discussion in them. I might also use them in this guide sometimes so it's best to familiarise yourself with some of them, although most of them are easy to pick up in context.

    AS = Avengers Shield
    AW = Avenging Wrath
    Cons = Consecration
    CS = Crusader Strike
    GC = Grand Crusader
    HoJ = Hammer of Justice (FoJ = Fist of Justice)
    HoTR = Hammer of the Righteous
    HoW = Hammer of Wrath
    HW = Holy Wrath
    J or Judge = Judgement
    Rep = Repentance
    SHoTR = Shield of the Righteous
    WoG = Word of Glory


    AD = Ardent Defender
    DG = Divine Guardian
    DP = Divine Protection
    DS = Divine Shield
    GoaK = Guardian of Ancient Kings
    HA = Holy Avenger
    LaotL = Long Arm of the Law
    LoH = Lay on Hands


    HoF = Hand of Freedom
    HoP = Hand of Protection
    HoS = Hand of Sacrifice

    ______________________________________________________________________________________

    (h1) Passives from Protection Specialization

    Avengers Shield - Hurls your shield at an enemy target, dealing holy damage, silencing and interupting spell casting for 3 seconds and then jumping to nearby additional enemies. Affects 3 targets.

    Guarded by the Light - Increases your total stamina by 25% and your block chance by 10%. Reduces the chance you will be critically hit my melee attacks by 6%. Word of Glory is no longer on the global cooldown. Your spellpower is now equal to 50% of your attack power, and you no longer benefit from other sources of Spellpower. Grants 15% of maximum mana every 2 seconds.

    Vengeance - each time you take damage, you gain 1.5% of the unmitigated damage as attack power.

    Hammer of the Righteous - Hammer the current target for 20% weapon damage, causing a wave of light that hits all targets for holy damage within 8 yards, and provides the Weakened Blows effect. Generates a charge of holy power.
    Weakened Blows - reduces physical damage dealth by 10% for 30seconds.

    Holy Wrath - Sends bolts of holy power in all directions causing holy damage divided amongst all targets within 10 yards, stunning demons and undead for 3 seconds.

    Judgements of the Wise - Judgement now grants a charge of holy power.

    Consecration - Consecrate the ground beneath you, causing holy damage to all targets standing in the area.

    Shield of the Righteous - Slam the target with your shield, causing holy damage and reducing the damage you take for the next 3 seconds by 30%. Generates a charge of Bastion of Glory
    Bastion of Glory - Increases the strength of your Word of Glory when used to heal yourself, by 10%. Stacks 5 times.

    Grand Crusader - When you dodge or parry a melee attack you have a 30% chance to to refresh the cooldown of Avengers Shield and causes it to generate a charge of Holy Power if used within 6 seconds.

    Plate Specialization - Whilst wearing only plate armour items, your stamina is increased by 5%.

    Sanctuary - Decreases damage taken by 15%, increases armour by 10%, and increases your chance to dodge by 2%.

    Ardent Defender - Reduces damage taken by 20% for 10 seconds. Whilst active, any attack which would kill you, will instead heal you for 15% of your maximum health.

    Guardian of Ancient Kings - summons a Guardian to protect you for 12 seconds. Reduces all damage taken by 50%.

    Mastery - Divine Bulwark. - Increases the damage reduction of Shield of the Righteous by 8%, adds 8% to Bastion of Glory, and increases your chance to block by 8%.
    ______________________________________________________________________________________

    Talents


    (f1) Pursuit of Justice, Speed of Light, Long Arm of the Law - Pursuit of Justice acts as a pretty general movement speed increase. I see this being pretty popular because even with no holy power, it's a 15% movement speed increase at all times, increasing to 30% with 3 holy power. Generally a good talent by the looks of it, good for fights with lots of movement at unpredictable times. Long Arm of the Law has a 50% uptime. Really good talent for pvp as a good gap closer. Could be good for pve, some people seem to like it and others hate it as they don't wish their movement speed to be tied to an ability. Speed of Light looks really good for a fight where you don't have to move often, but when you do, you really need to shift. All 3 of these talents make a speed boot enchant useless for us (yay!) because if a speed boot enchant is needed, you will just swap spec, and if it isn't, you can get Speed of Light. All 3 are good talents, and whilst 2 have a very obvious spot in raiding and challenge modes, the last 1 also does. Long Arm being that 1.

    (f2) Fist of Justice, Repentance, Evil is a Point of View - What an awful tier for raiding. Fist of Justice halving the cooldown and extending the range, Repentance being a CC and the last utility. How awkward. Fist of Justice may get some usage in raids for stunning adds, but most importantly having another ranged interupt, and whilst the cooldown is bad, it's not too hideous. Repentance may have some raiding use but I see this being more important in Challenge Modes to be honest. Meaning that you don't have to wait for CC from the dps is simply brilliant, and during a boss fight, could come in handy too should the add not be immune. Probably only 2 of these will see regular raiding use, but even those 2 will not come in too handy apart from maybe that interupt range being lovely. I see Fist of Justice being the number one raiding choice but it is again not clear cut.

    (f3) Selfless Healer, Eternal Flame, Sacred Shield - Selfless Healer looks good, but with an 18 second ramp up time for 1 flash of light, this isn't that great. Eternal Flame replaces WoG, and the intial effect heals for a lot, especially if used on yourself.. At the moment, Both Sacred Shield and Eternal Flame are very solid choices. Whichever you pick, keep the effect up at all times.

    (f4) Hand of Purity, Unbreakable Spirit, Clemency - This tier is a pretty obvious choice for general tanking. Hand of Purity decreases DOT damage so this will only be good for fights with heavy DOT damage. Also, it could be good if you have a Monk tank in the raid as Stagger is a DOT so this will act as a good cooldown. Clemency could also be used for some specific fights where you need extra Hand spells, but will not be a general choice. Unbreakable Spirit is clearly the best for tanks at the moment, reducing the cooldown heavily of Divine Protection, Divine Shield, AND Lay on Hands. It really is about as good a talent as we could desire at level 60. For Unbreakable Spirit, assuming perfect and on CD usage, Divine Protection will lose probably 15-20 seconds off it's cooldown, whilst Lay on Hands will lose the whole 5 minutes and Divine Shield about 2-2.5 minutes.

    (f5) Holy Avenger, Sanctified Wrath, Divine Purpose - As can be seen on the later pages, in its current state, Holy Avenger destroys the other 2 talents, with Divine Purpose in second and Sanctified Wrath in stone dead last. With Divine Purpose having a 25% proc chance however, it would give us a greater uptime of the SHotR buff. Divine Purpose is almost always the best choice.

    (f6) Holy Prism, Lights Hammer, Execution Sentence - All 3 of these spells are very attractive. On page 3 and 4 we had a little discussion about these, and opinions from the Beta/PTR are mixed at the moment. The general consensus is that for single target fights with very little to no adds, Execution Sentence will win (eg. Patchwerk/Baleroc, due to the loss of the AOE effects). For a very add heavy fight, Lights Hammer will win due to the sustained AOE pulsing that it can dish out, and when you couple this with our other AOE spells, it will rock. Holy Prism will be good for those "in between fights" for 2 reasons - short cooldown means you get the best of both worlds, and also, the utility on it is fantastic - those fights tend to come with AOE damage, so fire it into the boss and get some healing on your melee, or fire it into yourself to do some extra AOE damage to help on add aggro/damage. Holy Prism has some fantastic utility, Execution Sentence will hit/heal like a truck but cannot be used regularly, and Lights Hammer will have about a 25% uptime and rock at both, although it is a static AOE pulse so if movement is required it may be a little bit iffy. Holy Prism is usually the best choice.
    Last edited by MerinPally; 2014-05-02 at 06:40 PM.

  2. #2
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Glyphs


    (g1) Minor Glyphs

    Glyph of Bladed Judgement - Your judgement depicts an Axe or Sword instead of a mace, if you have an Axe or Sword equipped.
    Glyph of Contemplation - Teaches you Contemplation. Allows you a moment of peace as you kneel and ponder about light.
    Glyph of Fire of the Heavens - Judgement + Hammer of Wrath criticals call down fire from the sky.
    Glyph of Focused Wrath - Holy Wrath only affects one target.
    Glyph of Righteous Retreat - During Divine Shield, you hearthstone 50% faster.
    Glyph of Seal of Blood - Seal of Truth now uses the Seal of Blood animation.
    Glyph of Winged Vengeance - Avenging Wrath now depicts 4 wings.
    Glyph of Falling Avenger - Avenging Wrath now causes a slow fall.
    Glyph of Luminous Charger - Paladin class mounts now glow with holy light.
    Glyph of the Mounted King - Mounting one of your paladin class mounts now casts Blessing of Kings upon yourself.


    Thoughts on Minor Glyphs - obviously being minor glyphs, all of them are useless combat wise. The only exception would be Focused Wrath but the number of times that will come in handy is absolutely miniscule.


    (g2) Major Glyphs

    Glyph of Avenging Wrath - heals you for 2% of your health every 4 seconds.
    Glyph of Blinding Light - Blinding light now knocks down targets for 3 seconds rather than blinding them.
    Glyph of Consecration - Consecration can now be cast anywhere within 25 yards.
    Glyph of Dazing Shield - Avengers Shield now dazes targets for 10seconds.
    Glyph of Divine Protection - Reduces the magic reduction effect to 20% but grants a 20% physical damage reduction as well.
    Glyph of Double Jeapardy - Judging increases the damage of your next Judgement by 20% but only if used on a second target.
    Glyph of Final Wrath - Your Holy Wrath does 50% more damage to targets below 20% health.
    Glyph of Flash of Light - When you Flash of Light a target, it causes that target to take 10% more healing from you for the next 7 seconds.
    Glyph of Focused Shield - Avengers Shield hits 2 fewer targets, but for 30% more damage.
    Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous - The physical damage reduction caused by HOTR lasts 50% longer.
    Glyph of Holy Wrath - Holy Wrath now stuns Elementals and Dragonkin as well.
    Glyph of Immediate Truth - Increases the immediate damage done by Seal of Truth by 20%, but reduces Censure damage by 50%.
    Glyph of Protector of the Innocent - When you use Word of Glory to heal an ally, it heals you for 20% of the amount.
    Glyph of Word of Glory - Increases your damage by 3% per charge of Holy Power spent on Word of Glory. Lasts 6 seconds.
    Glyph of Alabaster Shield - Your successful blocks increase the damage of your next SHOTR by 20%. Stacks 3 times.
    Glyph of Battle Healer - Melee attacks from seal of insight heal the most wounded member of your raid or party for 30% of the normal heal instead of you.


    Thoughts on Major Glyphs - Despite the large number, most of these glyphs are so situational or downright useless that it's not worth considering them as they won't even cross your mind. The most useful ones are bolded.

    Final Wrath and Alabaster Shield are almost mandatory. The next options are Focused Shield and Divine Protection. Use Divine Protection if you need the extra damage reduction cooldown, and then Focused Shield for more dps. Glyph of Word of Glory is very useful especially once you have your 4piece as it will trigger from Eternal Flame, which you will keep rolling on at least yourself.

    Most of the time you will use Final Wrath, Alabaster Shield, Divine Protection. Use these 3 if unsure.


    _________________________________________________________________________________

    (p1) Rotation

    The protection paladin rotation is rather simple. With only 1, possibly 2 procs to watch and the fact that our Holy Power finishers are off the global cooldown we do not need to worry about those spells being slotted into the rotation as we can use them whenever. The rotation is as follows:

    Crusader Strike -> Judgement -> X -> Crusader Strike -> X -> Judgement -> Crusader strike -> X -> X

    X can be either Avengers Shield, Consecration, or Holy Wrath - and should be used in that priority order with Avengers being highest. You must NEVER delay a Crusader Strike or a Judgement in favour of a Grand Crusader proc - instead, use that Grand Crusader as your next X. This will yield the largest amount of holy power which in turn is equivalent to survival and a bit of dps.

    Seals - you should be using Seal of Insight for tanking. Threat should be ok with any stat priority highlighted below so you do not need to worry, but the damage of Truth got nerfed into the ground and Seal of Insight provides a very nice heal, and due to Glyph of Battle Healer you can give a good amount of healing to your raid as well.

    With regards to the "Do we delay til 5HP before the first SHOTR or just use at 3" there is an argument to both sides. First of all, you may need a bit of threat at the start so don't worry about delaying that first SHOTR if required. However, at some point in the fight (preferably as early as possible) you will want to ramp up to 5 and never go below 2. The reason for this is should there be a period of burst damage where you need a sustained SHOTR buff then you will be able to crank out 2 in quick succession. Alternatively, you are only 1 Holy Power away from a WoG which will have a few stacks of Bastion of Glory on it, so is able to help you out should a healer die or be pre occupied or just not able to save your life. Nice safety net which we can build ourselves by using a bit of foresight.
    Last edited by MerinPally; 2014-05-02 at 06:41 PM.

  3. #3
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    (k1) Specs and Glyphs





    A suggested raiding spec and glyphs

    http://www.wowdb.com/talent-calculator#tmI

    Speed of Light is also very highly valued and may replace Pursuit of Justice for certain fights. Eternal Flame is superior to Sacred Shield. Holy Prism should be your standard choice for almost all fights unless you need to fill a niche role in your group.

    Glyphs: Alabaster Shield and Final Wrath being near mandatory sorts 2 glyph slots then the third should be Divine Protection unless you're doing a mainly spell damage fight, in which case use Focused Shield instead, dependent on if there are any adds. Word of Glory becomes the go to once content has been cleared, for added dps - if you pick Eternal Flame. Which you should.


    This spec and glyphs should do you well for general boss tanking. If speed is only needed in bursts you may find Speed of Light more useful but other than that there's not an awful lot of swapping talents you'd even want to do.


    A suggested Challenge Mode spec and glyphs

    http://www.wowdb.com/talent-calculator#trI

    Repentance or Fist of Justice work here as a decent stun doesn't hurt and also some CC if you're just starting out on challenge modes, can really help you learn packs and then speed up over time. Divine Purpose beats Holy Avenger because as you're on the move having a constant effect will beat a 2minute CD, considering bosses won't last more than 1 use it's also diminished as on trash the mob won't be able to experience the full brunt of it half the time anyway.

    Glyphs: Alabaster Shield and Final Wrath are still mandatory, but some use Blinding Light here to get another stun - an AOE one nonetheless which is very useful at times. Divine Protection is also great here for another CD because you will need it until you perfect the instance. You can always change these around on the fly if you don't mind the cost so don't worry too much about it.


    Hopefully both of these will help people get their foot in the door until they're comfortable enough to alter talents on a boss by boss basis if their raid or strategy requires it.

    __________________________________________________________________________________

    (z1) Stat priority, reforging, gemming and enchanting.

    Stat Priority


    We have 2 methods of reducing the damage we take - Avoidance and Mitigation. Avoidance is increased by Dodge, Parry and Strength. Mitigation is increased by Mastery and Haste, although the second one is for a side effect rather than the main effect.

    Dodge and Parry are currently our weakest stats in terms of survival. They actually have the biggest effect on reducing the damage we take, but unfortunately the damage becomes very spiky and we want our damage to be as smooth as possible so they are not great stats at all. Despite this, you don't want to hide from them - you will have to reforge them into other stats almost consistently but they still reduce the damage you take so it's not a stat to avoid like the plague but it's not what you're after.


    Now, for some actual builds now that I have outlined the roles of different stats. The dominant build involves stacking haste.

    The build requires you to cap hit (7.5%, 2550 rating) and then hardcap expertise (15%, 5100 rating) to maximize your generation of Holy Power. After that, it's a bit simple but easy to learn. The Haste build looks like so:

    Hit (7.5%) > Expertise (15%) > Haste > Mastery > Parry > Dodge

    You stack haste until 50% which is 21250 rating - reduced by Thok's trinket should you have it.

    This stat priority will help you minimize damage the maximum amount, and haste gives the added benefit of improving your dps. Once you have the haste cap you can elect to stack more haste, mastery, or crit. Any are viable options, and if you hit that point you'll know what you're doing so can make an educated decision based on situation.


    Reforging

    For this section I will use the Haste build as the example. The priority is as follows:

    Hit (7.5%) > Expertise (15%) > Haste > Mastery > Parry > Dodge

    Essentially, just reforge the lowest priority stat into the highest priority one on this list. Once you cap hit and expertise, move onto mastery. Simple as.

    - Reforge to get hit cap (2550 rating)
    - Reforge to get expertise cap (5100 rating)
    - Reforge to maximize haste.


    Gemming

    Meta socket: Austere Primal Diamond.

    Red socket: Accurate Imperial Amethyst (160hit/160exp), Keen Vermillion Onyx (160mastery/160exp), Wicked Vermillion Onyx (160haste/160exp), Precise Primordial Ruby (320exp)

    Yellow socket: Fractured Suns Radiance (320mastery), Quick Suns Radiance (320haste), Keen Vermillion Onyx (160mastery/160exp), Wicked Vermillion Onyx (160haste/160exp), Lightning Wild Jade (160haste/160hit), Sensei's Wild Jade (160mastery/160hit)

    Blue socket: Accurate Imperial Amethyst (160hit/160exp), Rigid Rivers Heart (320hit), Lightning Wild Jade (160haste/160hit), Sensei's Wild Jade (160mastery/160hit).

    You should use gems to get yourself hit and expertise capped as quickly as possible and after that use them to begin getting haste/mastery in dependent on your build. Doesn't matter what you use your special JC gems on as they provide the same amount of hit/exp/haste/mastery in terms of number of points, irrespective of which one you require.


    Enchants

    Head = n/a
    Neck = n/a
    Shoulders = Greater Ox Horn Inscription (300 stamina, 100 dodge)
    Cloak = Greater Protection (200 stamina)
    Chest = Superior Stamina (300 stamina)
    Bracers = Mastery (170 mastery)
    Gloves = Superior Haste (170 haste)
    Belt = Living Steel Belt Buckle (+1 gem socket)
    Legs = Ironscale Leg Armor (430 stamina, 165 dodge)
    Boots = Greater Haste (175 haste)

    Weapon = Windsong (if cheap) or Dancing Steel if not.
    Shield = Greater Parry (170 parry)


    Please note that there is also a mastery enchant for the gloves, an expertise enchant for the gloves and a hit enchant for the boots should you need any spare hit or expertise. If you are a leatherworker then use the Stamina Fur Lining on your bracers instead. There is the option of Pandarens step for your boots but this really isn't necessary and you should manage fine without the run speed.


    Legendary Gem - Indomitable Primal Diamond (324 stam, 20% damage reduction on proc).

    Legendary Cloak - Qian-ying, Fortitude of Niuzao for progress, Gong-lu, Strength of Xuen for farm content or solo play


    Note: If you seem to be fine for damage taken then you may take Gong-lu, Strength of Xuen as your legendary cloak. However, the proc rate is diminished and really, the dps gain is not that big. Go for the tanking one primarily but if you're on complete farm mode or just LFR then maybe consider the strength dps one if you so desire.


    Raid Consumables

    Flask: Flask of the Earth (+1500 stamina)
    Potion: Potion of the Mountains (+12000 armour for 25 seconds)
    Food: Chun Tian Spring Rolls (+450 stamina)

    Suitable elixirs: Elixir of Weaponry (+750 expertise), Mantid Elixir (+2250 armour), Monks Elixir (+750 Mastery), Elixir of Mirrors (+750 dodge), Elixir of Perfection (+750 hit), Elixir of the Rapids (+750 Haste).

    Perfection, Monks, Weaponry and Rapids are Battle Elixirs. Mantid and Mirrors are Guardian Elixirs.

    _________________________________________________________________________________________

    (v1) Change log

    3rd Oct 2012 - Created Changelog.
    3rd Oct 2012 - Sat here scratching self.
    3rd Oct 2012 - Made a change to glyphs section to indicate that Final Wrath glyph is now good due to hotfix.
    10th Oct 2012 - Edited the stat priority section hugely to update for new builds. Added useful info about the Battle Healer glyph.
    12th Oct 2012 - Edited the gems and enchants section to reflect the newer builds which are superior.
    16th Oct 2012 - Fixed a few typos and updated a few phrases.
    1st Nov 2012 - Fixed something I thought I had before.
    4th Nov 2012 - Added 2 gems I had somehow missed out.
    19th Dec 2012 - Fixed weapon enchant which should have been done eons ago.
    28th Dec 2012 - Neatened up gems section.
    13th January 2013 - Updated a lot of small sections which needed doing. Glyphs, cooking, rephrased various bits. Elaborated on rotation.
    10th October 2013 - Updates for 5.4 (at long last). Also cleaned up a few bits. Did some changes at other times, just forgot to edit changelog.
    2nd May 2014 - Updates for all sorts of stuff.
    Last edited by MerinPally; 2014-05-02 at 06:48 PM.

  4. #4
    This is fantastic I just started playing Prot on live (My guild needs a tank).

    I'm on beta but i've been testing Holy/Ret since that is what I was playing on live- but that isn't the case now haha.
    I'll start looking into Prot, if you have any specific questions you want tested on Beta post them here and i'll hop on and find out definite answers for you!

    Also thanks for starting a PROT thread merin, i agree that it seems sorta dead on here (at least for prot!).

  5. #5
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Absolutely no problem Vayra, I've been sitting at home sorting things in terms of playing WoW myself (hitting 14k achi points before summer ends, which I'll easily manage) and doing maths for madness heroic now I returned to the game, so I neglected MOP info which I knew I should be doing. Now I'm on holiday and purposely didn't bring my authenticator with me, and I have a lot of spare time as the sun is unbearably hot @ mid day, when we don't go out or in the evenings when I'm browsing facebook, I may as well check on this too - I've got a clear head and a lot of spare time so I may as well catch up on all this stuff which I've been neglecting over the recent month.

    I do actually have some questions for you Firstly, what level are you? Secondly, is Crusader Strike still a 3 second cooldown or has it gone up to 4.5 seconds? Thirdly, seeing as Holy Shock is baseline, do you find space in your rotation for it, could it potentially be used to gain aggro on distant targets or as a heal for yourself or others, alongside Judgement as the damager (especially considering it generates Holy Power now). Once again, if you're level 90, can you tell me how much health you will have in some gear that is just upgraded from questing Same goes for Spellpower and Attack power values because then I can plug numbers into the equations provided by the database. Oh ad lastly - Exorcism. Does it hit well? Seeing as it's now an instant on a 15second Cd and generates holy power, how's that one looking? Thinking of that one in a similar vein to Holy Shock.

    Sorry for inundating you with questions there, is just a lot I'm still questioning as some of those things don't show up on the database and others are quite different from what we have now so it would be good to clarify those now as they are unlikely to change relative to coeffficients which I imagine will change on a regular basis If you have any questions about tanking on LIVE that aren't answered in the current prot thread then feel free to PM me on here or if you play on EU servers then come over to hellfire and send me a whisper once I'm back and I'll see if I can help ^^

    Last edited by MerinPally; 2014-07-06 at 12:41 PM.

  6. #6
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    I can cover a few of these!

    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Secondly, is Crusader Strike still a 3 second cooldown or has it gone up to 4.5 seconds?
    CS is now at a 4.5s baseline CD for all three specs. However, Sanctity of Battle is now a class ability and affects more abilities as a whole (I know this won't mean much for Prot outside of raidwide spellhaste auras and Heroism, but it's something).

    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Thirdly, seeing as Holy Shock is baseline, do you find space in your rotation for it, could it potentially be used to gain aggro on distant targets or as a heal for yourself or others, alongside Judgement as the damager (especially considering it generates Holy Power now).
    HS, sadly, is not baseline. Holy gets this at level 10 as part of their spec toolkit.

    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Same goes for Spellpower and Attack power values because then I can plug numbers into the equations provided by the database.
    One of the new passives, Guarded by the Light, sets our SP equal to half of our AP, and locks us out of any SP increasing effects. So you can simplify your equations by only worrying about AP, and replacing all SP references with AP/2.

    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Oh ad lastly - Exorcism. Does it hit well? Seeing as it's now an instant on a 15second Cd and generates holy power, how's that one looking? Thinking of that one in a similar vein to Holy Shock.
    Like HS, Exo is no longer baseline. It's part of Ret's spec kit.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    I do actually have some questions for you Firstly, what level are you? Secondly, is Crusader Strike still a 3 second cooldown or has it gone up to 4.5 seconds? Thirdly, seeing as Holy Shock is baseline, do you find space in your rotation for it, could it potentially be used to gain aggro on distant targets or as a heal for yourself or others, alongside Judgement as the damager (especially considering it generates Holy Power now). Once again, if you're level 90, can you tell me how much health you will have in some gear that is just upgraded from questing Same goes for Spellpower and Attack power values because then I can plug numbers into the equations provided by the database. Oh ad lastly - Exorcism. Does it hit well? Seeing as it's now an instant on a 15second Cd and generates holy power, how's that one looking? Thinking of that one in a similar vein to Holy Shock.

    I'm currently at work at the moment (mildly slacking >_>; it's a slow day though!). As of a few nights ago crusader strike is still 4.5 second CD, the cd is reduced for rets i'm not 100% sure about prot. I'll check when i'm off. Holy SHOCK isn't base line, it's purely for holy still :P did you mean holy WRATH?

    I'm still 87, it seems like the average health pool is around 350k give or take for someone in PvE 90 blues. (will verify tonight).


    No problem with the questions! I'll do my best to help out haha, and thank you for the offer about live prot. I still need to finish reading over the stickys. I'm currently farming the 5man gear / LFR.

    I DO have a question! About the spec, it seems like people on my sever (Atleast the heroic Prot Pallys) move one point. Between maxing out reckoning with one in grand crusader, or pulling one point from reckoning and maxing grand crusader. Which do you prefer?XD
    Last edited by Vayra; 2012-07-27 at 06:57 PM.

  8. #8
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Thanks a lot you 2, even the database was showing Holy Shock as baseline to me. This solves a lot of problems, as does the AP/2 = SP, so thanks a lot both Malthanis and Vayra

    Now, for the current live spec, once you get a Souldrinker (either normal or heroic) you really should have 2 points in Reckoning. That weapon hits so hard and then there's the proc which is /drool. Equally though, dropping points in Grand Crusader seems very counterintuitive as you get more holy power... I fail to see why they can't have 2/2 in both? If they really insist in speccing into Pursuit of Justice (which in the opinion of myself and many other heroic tanks, is a big mistake, you don't need it in DS and even then if you can't live without, you're better off with the boot enchant rather than 2 talent points lost).

    If they really can't live without PoJ (if they do drop PoJ you get 2/2 in both Reckoning and Grand Crusader easily) the place to drop points from is Guarded By the Light or Hallowed Ground, as consecrate is really poor and GbtL whilst useful, now with the 30% nerf is no longer as useful as it once was, and was originally in earlier tiers the place you would drop points from quite happily. I think in T11 it wasn't a talent used very much at all!

    I would be interested to see the armories of these paladins because it sounds very odd. I would still advocate my spec as it gets you everything you could possibly want in prot and all the extra damage from ret, at the cost of runspeed - if you're on the ball you're fine, especially with the 30% nerf we have nowadays. I know a few people on my server purposely copied my spec after I told them what I was doing (when they inevitably asked "zomg no PoJ?" and then provided sound reasoning) so I'd be interested to see what others do of course.

    Whilst both of you are on this thread, why don't you post some suggested talents and some ideas about glyphs? huh? huh?

    Edit: Having just checked the armories of some... bad prot paladins, one thing that hit me was the 1/32/8 spec. Thought I should add that this spec makes no sense to me whatsoever. Consecration is rather obviously our weakest spell, so why would 3% attack speed and 20% consecration damage outweigh 10% WoG healing and a bubble, leading to further survival? If you never use WoG (ie before you know you're about to take a big hit so you get the bubble) then you're doing it wrong. Also paladins who don't spec 3/3 Rule of Law or 2/2 Wrath of the Lightbringer deserve to be taken outside and shot at dawn.
    Last edited by MerinPally; 2012-07-27 at 07:05 PM.

  9. #9
    Hmm the Prot pally i copied was the GM of a guild called Dark Pact, they got sever 1st H-madness on bloodhoof haha.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...talent/primary

    ^ is his linky.

    As for my opinion on the talents...

    T1- my first pick WAS going to be long arm. It's the first thing i missed going from Ret to Prot, but the more I think about it... It's not as practical as the other two choices. I'll probably end up going PoJ just for the fact that it's a set-n-forget and will make it so i don't have to have a speed boot enchant.

    T2- The CC tier I love form a pvp perspective, PvE you will most likely just end up with whatever is more applicable. Rep for 5 mans would be nice though Do a CC before the pull.

    T3- This will depend on the encounter I think, assuming sacred shields don't override each other (If you have a Hpally that takes SS) i'd probably go with it. More reliable than Selfless healer which takes time to build up, or Flame which replaces Wog. Although Selfless healer + Sanctified Wrath will be beautiful.

    T4- Depends on the fight. Unbreakable probably most of the time. Hand for DoT encounters. Clem seems like it could be useful on a fight where your other tank takes a lot of damage, Sac is fantastic.

    T5- I will be taking either Holy Avenger if i use sacred shield, or Sanctifed Wrath if i take selfless healer. I'm not a fan of RNG in the slighest. Holy avenger is probably better overall because it offers you ANOTHER cooldown that is flexible enough to be offensive or defensive depending on how you use it (Shields to the face or WoG spam). Where as Sancitifed wrath is amazing, but it only increases the usefullness of something you already have.

    T6- As i'm not 90 yet, I can't give very valid imput. Holy prism's cooldown is to short imo. It's either going to be good enough to where we use it OCD, or weak enough where we are better off takeing one of the other two =/ I'll probably end up with Lights hammer will be my pick. I like that it's cooldown length makes it seem like just that, a cooldown not something you just toss in your rotation. It has a decent range (If i'm not mistaken) so you can use it to AoE heal ranged. Although i don't think it will / should have less healing than HPrism..

  10. #10
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Thank you Vayra What I plan to do in the third or fourth post (I'm yet undecided, I need another beer first!) is to copy the suggestions onto talent trees and put them all next to each other so we can see the diversity of builds that people choose. That should be rather interesting, but it may or may not tell us very much as talents are apparently very easy to change at will, akin to glyphs nowadays according to my guildys. Apparently it's a little bit expensive (?) but as a guild we're quite rich so I'm pretty sure we can manage it. We as a guild got accused of running a scheme, because on our faction side on Hellfire EU, out of the... 10? Names posted as "Busy Sellers" on undermine journal, I think half of them were from our guild and half the remaining names were one guy and his alts, although he wasn't in the guild fortunately or that would look shifty!

    Looking at the guy you posted... He obtained a souldrinker heroic (so I think we can assume he got a normal version as well previously) and he still opted to use a Hand of Morchok, tells me all I need to know. The spec he is using is a variant of one that was used back in Firelands, and was acceptable back then. It'll do the job but it's inferior to others in terms of dps, as is easy to tell by the fact he is missing out on 12% SoT damage, which is very high now, so he's missing out. Essentially, his spec is "acceptable" but he could easily do another ~10% damage on top of what he is doing due to more holy power and SoT damage.

    It's not necessarily wrong but it's not as good as it could be
    Last edited by MerinPally; 2012-07-28 at 01:37 AM.

  11. #11
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vayra View Post
    Hmm the Prot pally i copied was the GM of a guild called Dark Pact, they got sever 1st H-madness on bloodhoof haha.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...talent/primary

    ^ is his linky.
    Wow. That's... awkward. Eternal Glory lost a lot of it's usefulness with the WoG CD. It's (at best) a threat talent, allowing a follow-up ShotR after a WoG when it procs. I'd personally shift those two points over to Seals of the Pure. Then I'd drop PoJ, get Lavawalker for boots, then pick up 2/2 for Grand Crusader and drop a point in to Hallowed Ground (which would make it my spec, click my sig if you wish).

    Quote Originally Posted by Vayra View Post
    T6- As i'm not 90 yet, I can't give very valid imput. Holy prism's cooldown is to short imo. It's either going to be good enough to where we use it OCD, or weak enough where we are better off takeing one of the other two =/ I'll probably end up with Lights hammer will be my pick. I like that it's cooldown length makes it seem like just that, a cooldown not something you just toss in your rotation. It has a decent range (If i'm not mistaken) so you can use it to AoE heal ranged. Although i don't think it will / should have less healing than HPrism..
    This is the tier that interests me the most. I love the damage/healing duality to these talents. I'm probably going to try rocking some form of tank/battle-healer build to see how well I can take it, as well as throw out healing.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    Wow. That's... awkward. Eternal Glory lost a lot of it's usefulness with the WoG CD. It's (at best) a threat talent, allowing a follow-up ShotR after a WoG when it procs.
    Ooo... All right XD i'll copy your spec haha. I just sorta assumed he knew what he was doing. WHAT A FOOL I HAVE BEEN -swoon-.

    Oh about WoG generating threat.. I think i read somewhere it doesn't anymore o_O; ... I think the official wow sticky..

    AH-HA! Here it is... Off Xayton's Tank Guide!

    "Word of Glory;

    WoG no longer generates threat. According to Theck this was a hotfix done sometime in January."

    Is that accurate?

    EDIT: The tank/battle healer idea sounds sexy Would the Glyph of battle healer help? It's meant for holy though..

  13. #13
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    You're correct on how WoG doesn't generate threat. I meant EG was a 'threat' talent because you could follow a WoG with a Shield of the Righteous if EG procs. Basically, it means that you're getting threat where you normally wouldn't (WoG -> ShotR, instead of just WoG).

    Glyph of the Battle Healer may be intended for Holy, but Prot still gets Insight. So I'll probably try messing around with that as well.

  14. #14
    Are you thinking Selfless Healer, Hand of Purity, Holy Avenger (Or maybe Divine Purpose) along with Glyph of Battle Healer and Glyph of Flash of light Glyph of Flash of Light

    You can Instant Flash > WoG someone for a decent amount. I'll be doing that for when i run Ret in 3s I never considered it for tanking haha. This could be pretty epic, especially for healing intense fights. We would bring something no other tank brings.

  15. #15
    Id like to see your guys opinions on what to take for prot pvp( rbg fc) i was 2600+ s9 but since the wog nerf it killed me and ever since mop previews ive been thinking about what to use in rbg
    Now seeing the new pvp 4 piece, this + glyph of blessed life, we can spam heal ourself so hard, if only that overhealing shield was still there
    Last edited by Sluggo; 2012-07-27 at 11:57 PM.

  16. #16
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo View Post
    Id like to see your guys opinions on what to take for prot pvp( rbg fc) i was 2600+ s9 but since the wog nerf it killed me and ever since mop previews ive been thinking about what to use in rbg
    Now seeing the new pvp 4 piece, this + glyph of blessed life, we can spam heal ourself so hard, if only that overhealing shield was still there
    To be honest, I don't think in terms of pvp any more It's been a long time since I've done anything other than random BG's. I could have a think but I wouldn't expect much in the way of usefulness.

    Edit: @ Malthanis for Glyph of Battle Healer - it was a glyph I noticed and considered highlighting. In the end I didn't but now I will and will mention it, can finish the glyphs section now maybe so may as well

    Second Edit: My opinions on talents and glyphs are posted and completed, tomorrow I will do acronyms in the first post and then probably in the third post, or maybe the bottom of the second clearly marked, edit in the talent combinations people have suggested, and tag the glyphs in with them
    Last edited by MerinPally; 2012-07-28 at 01:33 AM.

  17. #17
    I am Murloc! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    I'll probably be rocking something like this: http://mop.wowhead.com/mists-of-pand...alculator#lxhm

    explanations!

    Tier 1: Speed of Light. I'm kinda torn between SoL and LaotL, BUT I figure having a seperate sprint is probably a better thing that having it tied to Judge, like when our only Interupt was AS(well we had Hammer as well, but on a 1min CD it wasn't exactly reliable), I hated having to hold back on AS so I could use it to int, same thing I can see holding back on judge so we can use it to sprint getting on my nerves a 45sec CD sprint is a better idea for me.

    Tier 2: Repentance. CC will be needed for Challenge Modes, and as I can see myself spending most of my time in CM's it seemed the obvious choice.

    Tier 3: Sacred Shield. I was allll about Eternal Flame, but now that it replaces WoG I'm not too sure, Sacred Shield seems like a good second choice, Absorbs are always good ya know ... now if only it got buffed by out Mastery .

    Tier 4: Unbreable Spirit. shorter CD on DP and LoH? yes please

    Tier 5: Divine Purpose. This tier is a little up in the air, as much as DP seems like it could be a great tool, it's a little bit RNG for me, I'll probably take it while leveling and see how it feels, if it seems like it NEVER procs, then I'll swap it for Holy Avenger.

    Tier 6: Execution Sentance. This tier will probably change depending on what I'm doing, but more often than not, I'll have it on ES, probably swapping out to Holy Prism for Trash/Hcs, and then back to ES for anything that will stay alive long enough to take the full damage.

    Glyphs:
    Major:
    Alabaster shield Seems an obvious choice, more damage on ShoR is always needed
    Hammer of the Righteous as CS doesn't apply weakend blows, we'll need to HoR even for Single Target, this means we need to do it less, this is a good thing
    Holy Wrath basically the only good thing about this ability is the stun, this makes the stun better. Might be swapped out if the amount of elementals/dragonkin isn't as high as it was in Cata

    Minor:
    Winged Vengeance MOAR WINGZZZZ
    Fire from the Heavens it burnses us precious!
    Bladed Judgement of course this one depends on if Blizz keep up the current system of having tank weapons swords more often than not.
    Reading the A song of Ice and Fire series is like playing with an adorable puppy, then someone comes up out of nowhere and shoots the puppy, then punches you in the face

  18. #18
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Ok done the passives and acronyms and a little bit of editing

    Thanks for your opinions Gallahadd. Later, when my wrist stops hurting (sitting here curled up with a laptop, typing a lot hurts my wrist >.<) I will draw up these talent trees. However, I will do them on the official wow battlenet one. Reason being that I can add glyphs to that one, and I didn't see a glyph addition function for the wowhead one? If I find one I'll use that instead but for when you're designing your tree, do it on wowhead and then I'll convert it across - the battlenet version has outdated information but the understanding should be ok still ^^

    I'll probably do them at the bottom of the glyphs post, I think that the first post on this thread is about as big as it should get to now before people just ignore it due to length. I'll stick with the whole key idea, but I could and probably will condense it down overtime to take up less space and make it less of an "oh... my... God" sort of thing.

  19. #19
    PvE bias from me.

    Talents:
    Tier 1 - I’m biased towards PoJ, even with the latest build’s alteration. Don’t like LAotL much for the same reasons as Gallahadd. Though having SW in tier 5 also, giving you potential full uptime on LAotL for the duration, could be kind of amusing. Could see SoL useful in one or two situations, but otherwise kind of meh to me.
    Tier 2 - Since I don’t like when mobs drag behind while I’m running from trash pack to trash pack in heroics, BoGu would be kind of annoying for general 5man tanking. Even if a raid encounter calls for a slow, I don’t imagine it’ll see much use, as most of the time that involves keeping near full uptime of a slow on several mobs at a time (exception being something like Riplimb tanking perhaps). Would like Repentance for challenge modes, just so I don’t have to wait for someone else to cc. Other than that, I like FoJ for mitigating damage or disabling healer mobs, though I don’t quite get why it has to be an entirely different spell that replaces HoJ rather than just a passive effect that says “decreases the cool down and increases the range of HoJ”.
    Tier 3 - EF replacing WoG seemed like a buff for us rather than a nerf. Otherwise it was being written off as the worst in the tier since it costs holy power, forcing it to replace WoG or SotR at certain points anyway, didn't have an initial heal, and didn‘t benefit from bastion stacks. Now it's just like WoG with a long hot. The initial heal is about the same as far as I understand and it’s affected by bastion stacks just like WoG. Only annoying thing may be that it isn’t affected by the 4pc set bonus. I like it quite a bit, since the hot ticks faster and adds up to more mitigated/reversed damage than SS, though SS is still quite solid since it outright prevents damage. SH may be neat for reversing some semi-frequent heavy damage, I’m thinking something like Chimaeron’s double attack or a dragon’s breath. Don't like it much outside of that.
    Tier 4 - It’d be US normally. HoPu situational for dot raid mechanics, and Clemency also for raid mechanics, where it’d be nice to have two rapid fire HoPrs or HoSacs.
    Tier 5 - Imagine HA will be a popular choice, yay for another survivability cool down. SW will speed up holy power generation a bit too, but even with its synergy with SH in tier 3, still doesn’t seem as good as HA, but it does last twice as long (with a longer cool down however), so there’s that. Even with the rng, DP sounds like it’d be fun to play with. I reflect to times playing ret on live and watching it every once in a while proc 3-5 times in a row off TV. Yeah, that’s hilarious, and even individual procs could help some with pooling holy power.
    Tier 6 - HP would likely be my go-to, considering its cool down and utility. I don’t like ES much at all, though of course with good timing it may be nice, depending on what value that “final burst” turns out to be. For a while I also thought LH wasn’t very good, but now I’m more looking at it as a smallish raid survival cool down when people are stacked. Yes, it’s not a very sizable heal, but it’s aoe, multiply it by however many are standing in it (up to 5 or 6, after that I imagine the healing gets reduced), though HP could arguably be better if the stack point is right by the boss and the radius of the boss’s hitbox isn’t 15+ yards (like, Al‘akir size). Either that, or it could be used to get aoe threat in two (or even three maybe with the Consecration glyph, although Consecration by itself isn't terribly effective) places at a time, I’m thinking something like Onyxia or Jan’alai (if neither hatcher is killed) where there are two ways the adds can stream in.

    Major Glyphs:
    Blinding Light - Wasn’t highlighted, so I imagine it was regarded as not useful. I actually kind of like it. Turns it into an aoe stun rather than disorient (disorients are broken by damage), for when mobs aren’t the right type for HW to do it. Could see perhaps taking it for challenge modes.
    Hammer of the Righteous - This doesn’t seem like anything more than a very slight dps or quality of life glyph to me. HotR generates a point of holy power just like CS, it just does less damage to a single target. Unless you really need to be doing less aoe damage, I don’t understand the strong aversion to using HotR instead of CS every so often.
    Inquisition - Saw this glyph highlighted, but as I understand, Inq is exclusive to ret.
    Ascetic Crusader - If I remember correctly this doesn’t exist anymore. It was turned into…
    Harsh Words - Allows WoG to be used as an offensive spell (and specifically states doesn’t work with EF). No, I imagine it wouldn’t benefit from bastion stacks when used offensively, since they specifically state they’re for when you’re healing yourself. Don’t really care for this glyph personally.
    *My choices would likely be Divine Protection when the physical damage reduction is needed, Holy Wrath when/if mob types allow, Blinding Light for whatever potential niche use, with Alabaster Shield, Focused Shield, and perhaps Final Wrath (or whatever is mathed out to be the next highest dps glyph) filling any empty spots for single target dps.
    Last edited by Elathi; 2012-07-29 at 07:33 AM.

  20. #20
    Herald of the Titans 4KhazModan's Avatar
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    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/mis...#bZ!121001!gop

    After some playing around on the ptr, this is what I came up with.
    Long arm of the law for mobility and kiting
    Burden of guilt for add pickup and kiting
    Enternal Flame because I've seen it do crazy things. 17k normal ticks and 86k initial heal crits with 5 stacks of Bastion
    Hand of Purity because it gives more damage redection
    Holy Avenger for getting aggro at the beginning of a fight
    Hammer of Light for a mini raid CD and AoE damage

    Glyphs: Alabaster Shield, Hammer of the Righteous, Blinding Light
    Minor: Winged Avenger, Luminous Charger, Contemplation.

    Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVpkz...ature=g-user-u

    Raiding
    Last edited by 4KhazModan; 2012-07-30 at 07:53 PM.

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