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  1. #41
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gingerwookie View Post
    For your run-of-the-mill tank 'n' spank I'd go with something like this:
    Pursuit of Justice
    Fist of Justice
    Sacred Shield
    Unbreakable Spirit
    Sanctified Wrath
    Holy Prism
    Avenging Wrath, Word of Glory, Focused Shield.
    Winged Vengeance, Falling Avenger, Focused Wrath.

    So many of the talents and glyphs have potential depending on the encounter and group comp though, its hard to suggest one spec for general use. Maybe a better idea would be to have the encounters listed with suggested specs? It would take a lot of time and space though and group comps could still affect what players take.

    10man raider point of view, BTW.
    Thanks for your addition to the thread ^^ When we actually get to pandaland and actual bosses then sure, one thing I want to do is cater to individual bosses - I don't mind the extra work and I doubt people will mind more text - but the problem is that bosses aren't tuned and maybe not even finalised yet, same goes with talents and stuff, and people can't even agree on what stats to prioritise in MOP yet. For now I'm looking at a general thing that looks like it has synergy for leveling, those first few heroics and those first few raids, then after maybe 1 week at the most, we'll have enough information of people saying "this works here and that there" and we can do this really effectively

    Catering it for group comps will be harder, far harder, as there are so many combinations, but I can and will put notes on some of them like "Sacred Shield does not stack, not a good talent if your holy paladin has this" sort of thing.

    Oh, edit: Incase you read this, I have a question about your glyphs, the spec makes sense to me. Why do you like Glyph of Avenging Wrath? It heals you for 2% of your total health every 4 seconds, so it heals you for 10% of your health over 20 seconds, that seems awfully low for a valuable glyph slot? Also, Glyph of Word of Glory, 9% damage for a mere 6 seconds? My wondering is if you've tested it on beta because to me it doesn't sound great, so if you've got some testing behind it then I'd be delighted to hear it, and if not, just some general reasoning

    And for anyone who is on Beta, can they test/let me know if Glyph of Word of Glory works if you spec into Eternal Flame? Because if not then that glyph becomes instantly useless if you spec Eternal Flame which is apparently looking nice at the moment.
    Last edited by MerinPally; 2012-07-30 at 03:58 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    Interesting news on this front: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...?page=154#3080

    About halfway down the post, GC has this to say:

    "The intent is that Sanctity of Battle is based on melee haste instead of spell haste but we are waiting on a code change for that."
    Hehe, oh well, at least the cool downs get to that point anyway when the 10% melee speed raid buff is present. At the very bottom that post also addresses EF being on the gcd, which I was finding somewhat annoying, so that's neat. :P

    Speaking of that, found you can put WoG into a macro (I just wanted one for mouseover targeting) and it'll cast EF if you have it. A bit convenient.
    Last edited by Elathi; 2012-07-30 at 04:03 PM.

  3. #43
    Good to know about the WoG / Flame macro!

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Oh, edit: Incase you read this, I have a question about your glyphs, the spec makes sense to me. Why do you like Glyph of Avenging Wrath? It heals you for 2% of your total health every 4 seconds, so it heals you for 10% of your health over 20 seconds, that seems awfully low for a valuable glyph slot? Also, Glyph of Word of Glory, 9% damage for a mere 6 seconds? My wondering is if you've tested it on beta because to me it doesn't sound great, so if you've got some testing behind it then I'd be delighted to hear it, and if not, just some general reasoning

    And for anyone who is on Beta, can they test/let me know if Glyph of Word of Glory works if you spec into Eternal Flame? Because if not then that glyph becomes instantly useless if you spec Eternal Flame which is apparently looking nice at the moment.
    No reason, I just liked the idea of a little extra healing. But yeah, its not a lot of and probably won't really be worth it.

    Glyph of Word of Glory does work with Eternal Flame.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Gingerwookie View Post
    No reason, I just liked the idea of a little extra healing. But yeah, its not a lot of and probably won't really be worth it.

    Glyph of Word of Glory does work with Eternal Flame.
    Also not that it's a huge deal, but Glyph of Harsh Words does NOT work with Eternal Flame.

  6. #46
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Thanks a lot Gingerwookie, for both the explanation and the information. That glyph now looks more appealing and once I see the extent to which we are WoGging can determine whether it's worth it. And thanks too Vayra, you may not think it's useful but knowing as much as possible is always beneficial, no matter how insignificant it may seem

  7. #47
    Mechagnome ayashi's Avatar
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    Seems that after all, talents won't be that cookie cuter as some people what to make us belive if you consider the whole game. If you focus on only a single aspect of it (ie: raiding) it becomes much more obvious which are the "right" choices.
    So, after testing on PTR, here's my opinion for raiding, obviously enconter specific mecanics will play a huge part of it, but for baseline choice :

    Tier 1: LAotL
    SL 45s cooldown really kills it compared to the other ones
    PoJ is linked to holy power, meaning you get the least amount of speed when you really need it unless you prepare 4-6s ahead of time to save up 3HoP specifically for it.
    At which point LAotL, with judgement 6s cooldown is identical with the added benefit of not costing any potential dps from saving 3HoP. It's downside would be when you need more than 3s sprint, which is pretty rare in raiding where almost all the action happens in a relatively small room.

    Tier 2 : FoJ
    Only Fist of Justice has a potential use in raiding as an additional spell cut. The amount of raid adds sensible to stuns is much higher than those that can be controled (ie: alicerazor)
    Repentace would be useful on trash packs (meh) and in dungeons (specially challenge mode) but in raids ? there's hardly any case where you need to control a trash add for a significant amount of time, and said add is sensible to controls in the first place.

    Tier 3: EF
    Prot PoV will only consider eternal flame or Sacred Shield. And honestly it comes down to pure numbers and how will eventually blizzard balance them. Currently EF is largely superior due to it's comparative higher scaling with attack power (and vengance), and the bug(?) that allows it to benefit from SoR buff but not consuming it, meaning you'll sit on 5 stacks of SoR the whole fight !
    Assuming Sacred Shield gets the exact same scaling than EF, with the end result of WoG + SS = EF total healing (... or maybe even EF + 50-75% of hot since you will probably cast a WoG/EF more often than once every 30s), SS would be superior as negating damage is better than healing it.
    Will have to wait and see.

    Tier 4: US
    Unbreakable spirit UNLESS there is a fight specific higly damaging bleed/dot that would make HoP worthwhile.
    Considering no other tank has something similar to HoP i very much doubt we will see many encounters designed with that. It'd just make prot paladins overpowered for those fights.
    Clemency is basically double lenth HoProt/HoSac. Again enconter specific, but hardy considerable for baseline choise.

    Tier 5 : Holy Avenger is just plain mathematically better
    Sactified Wrath : most useless of the tier for Prot. 30s wrath means a gain of 10 holy power every 3min. While the spell gains a little usefulness when you consider you can get a 30s 45% sprint with LAotL and that the increased HoP generation could arguably be considered a small survival CD (higher WoG/EF output during that time) it's still much less efficient than the other options.

    divine purpose : The passive option. Quite decent for very little management. Any proc will translate into a extra SoR (= higher dps and overall blocking) and therfor one more SoR stack (=higher WoG/EF output). CS gives 1.2 HoP(20% GC proc rate) per 4s, and judgement +1per 6s, so over 3min it's a 75HoP overall expected generation from Prot cycle, meaning 25 finishers so an average of 5 procs from divine purpose = 15 free holy power.

    Holy avenger: 15s where you will chain builder-> finisher. You will therefor have 8 builders giving 3 holy power instead of 1, so 16 free holy power every 2min. 24 free holy power every 3 min. With the same consideration as with sanctified wrath that makes it arguably a defensive cooldown.

    note: i fully expect holy avenger to be nerfed and given a 3min CD to bring it down to size with the other two

    Tier 6: Holy Prism ? maybe ??
    can't talk much about it, i only have PTR access, so idk the spells scallings. Just from looking at it, i would probably go on a leg and take Holy Prism. Even if you can't cast it on yourself (i assume you can't use any of those lvl 90 talents on yourself only on "other ally"), you can always send it on a melee and benefit from it's healing every 20s.


    Glyphs are pretty light for us, survival point of view. Most interesting ones would be:
    Consecration (ranged is pretty awesome)
    Battle Healer: "passive" healing for the raid AND myself due to SoL instead of SoT. At the cost of dps but arguably the only real survival Glyph with potencially DP and maybe, maybe, AW (10-15% self heal)

    And obviously Divine Protection, depending on the fight, but i'm guessing you'll usually want to glyph it. (There's Holy Wrath stun too, similarly highly depended on the fight...)
    The rest is pretty much only dps (or cosmetic) gains, so ...meh, whatever glyph slot is free will be used for albaster, focused shield and the likes
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    the average wow player is only a step above eating glue and a step below doing basic addition. Right about being able to operate scissors fairly properly is the sweet spot.

  8. #48
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    Light's hammer is pretty amazing. It is more or less like death and decay for death knights, except it deals tons of damage and also heals everyone.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRISc1A9sTM

    With this, you can basically forget about the consecration glyph and focus on something else. (Cause they would do the same thing, except Light's hammer is stronger and better for snap aggro / pulling) It's very cool, the only downside is that 1 min cd.
    Last edited by Asheriah; 2012-07-30 at 06:13 PM.

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  9. #49
    Mechagnome ayashi's Avatar
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    See, that is way i hate not being on the beta ... (T_T)

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    Light's hammer is pretty amazing. It is more or less like death and decay for death knights, except it deals tons of damage and also heals everyone.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRISc1A9sTM

    With this, you can basically forget about the consecration glyph and focus on something else. (Cause they would do the same thing, except Light's hammer is stronger and better for snap aggro / pulling) It's very cool, the only downside is that 1 min cd.
    The nice thing though is that it is a 1min cd, not something we will have to worry about useing every 20seconds (like light pris)!

  11. #51
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayashi View Post
    See, that is way i hate not being on the beta ... (T_T)
    I know the feeling I didn't buy the annual pass because I knew I would stop the game temporarily to finish off my A levels. What I hadn't taken into account though was that I had a 6month rolling sub so it didn't end until 2 days before my exams finished, and I didn't notice until 1 week before my exams finished, so I was paying the entire time >.< Therefore I may as well have bought it so that I could get the beta access because I would have paid the same amount of money anyway. So much for being one of the most intelligent students in the country going by university offers -.-

    Quote Originally Posted by Vayra
    The nice thing though is that it is a 1min cd, not something we will have to worry about useing every 20seconds (like light pris)!
    I see this argument and I have been thinking about it for a while now. The way I see it is I first wonder do we have holes in the prot rotation like I think we will (I'm most likely wrong though) which Prism could fill regularly. Secondly, is it one of those spells which you could not cast on cooldown and still get a decent enough set of numbers out of to compete with the others?

    My thoughts on the Prism are that it's more for utility, some nice AOE damage/healing should be beneficial, rather than a big hit from Execution Sentence. But it's one of those things that is really hard to validate until:

    Numbers are finalised
    Extensive testing in both dungeons and raids is done (that could be 1 reset and just 100 tanks trying it rather than 1 tank and 100 resets)
    We actually get to see what stats we prioritise.

    A lot needs to be done really before we can be certain so this is still one thing that's up in the air. Also, I like the 40 yard range for something like leveling which at the moment I admit is my main focus and I like the idea of being able to just hit it on myself for a self heal and continue pulling 10 million and one mobs Seems kind of handy.

  12. #52
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    I (personnally) think protection paladins are fine in regards to downtime. We have so many AoE moves and our only restriction is our cooldowns, we are not limited by ressources. If you handle the thing correctly, by dropping consecration as much as possible, and trying to fill those holes with whatever you can, say avenger's shield or holy wrath, even when boss tanking, you might end chain-pulling at the speed of light (lol) and efficiently (i.e. not losing aggro) as long as you have someone healing you.

    Rotation feels very solid right now, it's a really fun class to play, I love it.

    What's good about Light's Hammer is that you can keep it for those moments you're out of tools to pull the next pack in challenge mode. Say, consecration, avenger's shield and holy wrath are all down, no problem ! Light's hammer and HotR and consecration should be back in the next few secs.

    One thing I also like about not glyphing consecration is that I can just forget about it. Use it, done. I don't have to select the place where I want it to land, because Light's Hammer can already do that. Sure, that's minimal comfort but it helps me to focus on something else. (Even though I can already see fights where the usage of both is going to be so amazing. Gauntlet events or streaming adds coming from two different sides.)
    Last edited by Asheriah; 2012-07-30 at 07:20 PM.

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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    (Even though I can already see fights where the usage of both is going to be so amazing. Gauntlet events or streaming adds coming from two different sides.)
    This sounds FANTASTIC, i never thought of that XD

  14. #54
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Holy Prism can be used for snap-aggro on a group as well (depending, of course, on it's finalized damage and healing), since using it on an allied target provides an AoE burst of damage. So the adds will (most likely) go for the healer, so you toss Prism at the healer and fix what the adds just did, and pick up some aggro as well. From what I understand, you can also macro it to self-cast and produce the AoE burst from yourself.

    But in the Light's Hammer camp, you can layer that on top of Consecration for ALL OF THE AOE!

  15. #55
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    Holy Prism can be used for snap-aggro on a group as well (depending, of course, on it's finalized damage and healing), since using it on an allied target provides an AoE burst of damage. So the adds will (most likely) go for the healer, so you toss Prism at the healer and fix what the adds just did, and pick up some aggro as well. From what I understand, you can also macro it to self-cast and produce the AoE burst from yourself.

    But in the Light's Hammer camp, you can layer that on top of Consecration for ALL OF THE AOE!
    But you can't pull effectively with holy prism. I mean, if you need those adds to stay where they are, you can't expect do it with a single push of holy prism while light's hammer totally can .

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  16. #56
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    From what I remember in the past year, this is one of the most active and longest protection paladin threads on mmochampion Good show everyone!

    On another note, how long does the Holy Prism last? I guess that's a pretty important bit of information in terms of uptime. For someting like heroics, Holy Prism is obviously better for terms of chain pulling and always moving. However, on a static fight where adds come at regular intervals, Lights Hammer is better because it should do more damage for the time it's around so should you need to do high damage in a certain area you can chuck it and tada. Execution Sentence better for a fight like Baleroc should it do more damage which I guess it will do as the AOE radiation from the other 2 spells will not be present on a Baleroc style fight so the damage will be superior.

    Way I see it/think is that for fast chain pulling, Holy Prism is better. For a fight where adds come occasionally, Holy Prism will be roughly equal to Lights Hammer but Lights Hammer should pull ahead due to the amount of damage it does in that time period and the number of GCD's it will take up, and then for a single target fight alone, Execution Sentence will win.

    However, all 3 of those are in terms of damage alone. For terms of actual usefulness you need to factor in healing - if you need melee healing alone then Holy Prism is great because it damages the boss and heals the melee plus yourself. For Lights Hammer it heals everyone so if you have more than 5 people stacked up, it then pulls ahead because it heals EVERYONE. Then Execution Sentence will heal 1 raid member so could be good but then it'd only be good for if one person was taking a large amount of damage, such as a Baleorc/Patchy fight.

    That's my thoughts anyway on these 3 spells - Execution Sentence for something like Baleroc/Patchwerk, Lights Hammer for something where the entire raid is close to each other like Heroic Spine or Yorsahj, and then Holy Prism for something where the melee are taking damage and it's worth helping them out such as Zon'ozz ball bouncing or Heroic Morchok 10man as you're in your groups of 5. However, for 25man raids when you will have more than 5 people under a boss, Lights Hammer obviously beats Holy Prism, and then Holy Prism beats Lights Hammer on a 10man.

    Thoughts? Criticisms? I'm only thinking logically here without any real comprehension of the numbers other than "they must be balanced simply because they have to or their talent system has failed"

  17. #57
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Prism isn't an over-time effect, it's just a burst. That's why it's only got a 20 second CD. I personally like it for my battle-healer target, since I can cast it at the boss and heal melee with it (the scaling isn't half bad on it, either).

    I'll agree with your other points, though. ES for single target fights with very few (as in they die fast enough to not need the tank's assistance) to no adds, Prism for those in-between fights, and LH for add-heavy fights.
    Last edited by Malthanis; 2012-07-30 at 08:07 PM.

  18. #58
    Elemental Lord MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    But you can't pull effectively with holy prism. I mean, if you need those adds to stay where they are, you can't expect do it with a single push of holy prism while light's hammer totally can .
    Thing with Lights Hammer is that it's cool for long lasting mobs like in a raid but in a heroic dungeon they won't be like that because the mobs are going to die really quickly. Whether they die within 15 seconds is questionable/unknown as of yet but the short cooldown of the Prism is going to allow you to cast it everypull as that extra something. This way you can just spam it on yourself for some self healing and damage enemies.

    You won't be able to hit it onto an enemy for that because it would just radiate healing which you won't need ina 5man. Put it on yourself to radiate damage and it becomes the origianl Unholy Blight that DeathKnights had, which whilst it won't hold threat itself it's that something extra that will almost always be there, unlike Lights Hammer That's my thinking anyway.

    EDIT: Ooooh ok so it's not a radiative effect but something that just "happens" - again, I see that being good for short fights, Lights Hammer for in between and ES for long ones. This narrows some of the oppurtunites and fun I was looking to have with it but it still sounds good to be honest.
    Last edited by MerinPally; 2012-07-30 at 08:09 PM.

  19. #59
    Is lights hammer threat tied to yourself or.. the hammer?

    I mean if you toss down the hammer in a group of mobs, and it ticks damage. Do the mobs run towards you? or does the hammer have health and they attack it? '.';

  20. #60
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vayra View Post
    Is lights hammer threat tied to yourself or.. the hammer?

    I mean if you toss down the hammer in a group of mobs, and it ticks damage. Do the mobs run towards you? or does the hammer have health and they attack it? '.';
    As far as I can tell (don't have a level 90), the hammer isn't an object (similar to what a shaman totem would be). It's just a spell effect. So yes, the threat generated from LH's damage and healing should be tied to you.

    Now that I think about it, it doesn't really matter how you use the level 90 talents, they're all threat boosts.

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