[MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

OK, so time to find another 3500 haste rating from somewhere (or 2000 to hit that soft-cap) :/

[Deleted]

Yeah, as I wrote above, it is slightly lower even. Not sure exactly where the break points happen, not an expert theorycrafter so to speak

If above is true then 5336 rating should be enough with SoI and 5% spell haste.
Which would put soft cap to 3836 only.

And to be honest, difference between "soft" and "hard" cap is not the big difference if you put some addon to track Windsong Haste procs and just reapply when it is up.

Edit: The 9 ticks breakpoint happens between 69.92% haste and 70.11% haste
The 8 point break point happens between 49.96% and 50.10%

So, it looks like the 7,8,9 breakpoints are at 30, 50, 70%

Which would translate into


7 ticks - 5543 rating - 4043 rating soft cap with windsong proc
8 ticks - 12695 rating - 11195 rating soft cap with windsong proc
9 ticks - 20055 rating - 19555 rating soft cap with windsong proc

The 9 ticks one is probably unobtainable in current gear, however 8 ticks will be very much obtainable in HoF gear.

Though lets also remember, that this is also assuming that you do not refresh your SS before it falls off. If that happens each point of haste is valuable. So if you refresh you SS the breakpoints will not matter as much.

[Deleted]

SS Spell Gear Haste
Tics Haste Haste Rating
5 1.0 0.0% 0
6 1.2 3.9% 1,656
7 1.4 21.2% 9,015
8 1.6 38.5% 16,374
9 1.8 55.8% 23,734

This is the values of gear haste required that i calculated (assuming you have SoI 10% and Spell Haste buff 5%).

Formula:
Spell Haste required = SS Tics / (30/6)
Gear Haste = ((Spell Haste / (1.1*1.05)) -1)*100
Haste Rating = Gear Haste * 425
EDIT: meh table really doesnt like copy paste from Excel.

[Elathi]

If I may ask, are there some sort of breakpoints trying to be found? For something that's easily kept at 100% uptime, it seems a bit odd to measure SS in number of ticks over 30s rather than the frequency of them(especially when, at a certain skill level, it's strategically refreshed early). And measured with the latter, a breakpoint doesn't really exist except in very specific situations.

[Deleted]

If I may ask, are there some sort of breakpoints trying to be found? For something that's easily kept at 100% uptime, it seems a bit odd to measure SS in number of ticks over 30s rather than the frequency of them(especially when, at a certain skill level, it's strategically refreshed early). And measured with the latter, a breakpoint doesn't really exist except in very specific situations.

No not as such....what i think it does demonstrate is the effect haste has on the time between individual shields. One way to "measure" this is to note the number of shields that are created for for each individual application of the SS (30 sec) buff. Another would be to just show the cd between shields:

Haste rating 0 2,125 4,250 6,375 8,500 10,625
Gear Haste 0% 5% 10% 15% 20% 25%
SS refresh 5.195 4.947 4.723 4.517 4.329 4.156

There is no "breakpoint" imo, as haste just reduced the refresh time linearly, after all we will be keeping the SS (30 sec) buff up 100% of the time regardless.

EDIT: im guessing what the guys above are talking about is if you had a lovely vengence spike and activated SS (30 sec) how many uber shield tics youd get before the buff would wear off and you'd have to refresh. /shrug

[Deleted]

The thing is that the addiontal tick does not come from when you get enough ticks into the 30 second window, it actually comes when you get enough ticks in a rough 32.2-32.3 second window.

I physically tried this out in game yesterday and the breakpoints happened at 30, 50, 70% for 7,8,9 ticks. Which would be 5543, 11195, 19555 rating.

[Deleted]

The thing is that the addiontal tick does not come from when you get enough ticks into the 30 second window, it actually comes when you get enough ticks in a rough 32.2-32.3 second window.

I physically tried this out in game yesterday and the breakpoints happened at 30, 50, 70% for 7,8,9 ticks. Which would be 5543, 11195, 19555 rating.

hmmm odd that it would be at 32.2/3 secs. Updating my table for that time period gives:

SS Spell Gear Haste
Tics Haste Haste Rating
5 0.929 -19.6% -8,324
6 1.115 -3.5% -1,488
7 1.300 12.6% 5,347
8 1.486 28.7% 12,182
9 1.672 44.7% 19,017


About the same as yours. As in you dont need any haste from gear to get 6 tics.
Anyhoo i think the only really important thing to look at is the time between SSs refreshing decreases with time as per my post above ^^. As Elathi mentioned, there's no real benefit in trying to reach a threshold to get "additional" tics from a single SS (30 sec) cast as it is up 100% of the time.

[Deleted]

About the same as yours. As in you dont need any haste from gear to get 6 tics.
Anyhoo i think the only really important thing to look at is the time between SSs refreshing decreases with time as per my post above ^^. As Elathi mentioned, there's no real benefit in trying to reach a threshold to get "additional" tics from a single SS (30 sec) cast as it is up 100% of the time.

Yeah, the only benefit is if you do not constantly keep refreshing it. Otherwise, every point of haste helps.

I think it scales like that the standard duration is 30 seconds, but due to haste scaling, it choses the least deviating path. So lets say when it gets down to 3.99 seconds.

Either you get 7 ticks on a 27.93s ss, or 8 ticks on a 31.92s ss

27.93 is further away from 30s than 31.92s is, therefore you get 8 ticks on 31.92s duration insead.
so the actualy breakpoint would be where the time beteen each SS tick 4s ( 50% ) or 1 rating above that ( depending if it scales up or down )

Which is why it brakes on 32 sec for 8 ticks. But the main thing here is the increased duration. While the HPS is the same, you gotta refresh it less often. 1 haste rating differs between a 28s shield with 7 ticks or a 32s 8 tick one.

Which is why the earlier break points is about when it reaches 32.2 for 7 ticks, and 32.4 for 6 ticks probably ( dont know exact numbers )

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

So my estimate from mental napkin maths for the 7th tick wasn't too far off then

[Deleted]

So my estimate from mental napkin maths for the 7th tick wasn't too far off then

Your napkin math was entirely correct with the assumptions that were usen then, with that the new tick occurs when you can squeeze in an addiotional tick within 30 sec, while in reality it seems to chose the least deviating path.

I think so more research has to be done on exactly when the breakpoints happen. But as said before, if your keeping SS up all the time, it does not really matter.

The difference comes in handy if you do not keep it up constantly / You do not have to recast it as often when you just reached a cap.

If you have 28 or 32 sec duration you can wait almost 3 more globals to refresh

As I wrote earlier, I did some quick testing with gear swapping etc to find the rough breakpoints.

The 9 ticks breakpoint happens between 69.92% haste and 70.11% haste
The 8 ticks breakpoint happens between 49.96% and 50.10%

and with 30.06% I had the 7 tick breakpoint.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Yeah, I got 32% haste (~90% tolerance) for the 7th tick.

[Deleted]

Merin, is River's Song really that good? I've been using Windsong and it's better in every aspect in my opinion.

[Deleted]

Merin, is River's Song really that good? I've been using Windsong and it's better in every aspect in my opinion.

I would agree with this.

[MerinPally]

Windsong is better, I thought that I had updated it aaaages ago but it appears not.

[Deleted]

Hello!

I was browsing through your guide (Good work, keep it up!) and I noticed that a gem that I like to use is missing.

Keen Vermilion Onyx

It might be a good addition to the red slot? I dunno, I just wanted to bring it up.

[Deleted]

Hello!

I was browsing through your guide (Good work, keep it up!) and I noticed that a gem that I like to use is missing.

Keen Vermilion Onyx

It might be a good addition to the red slot? I dunno, I just wanted to bring it up.

Wicked Vermilion Onyx

Would be a far better choice for red socket.

[MerinPally]

Wicked Vermilion Onyx

Would be a far better choice for red socket.

Unless you're going for the mastery build in which case Keen is better.

Please, look, if you read back over your posts on this thread you seem to be a major backer for the Haste build - cool. But the mastery build isn't inferior and it isn't wrong and if you look at the majority of hardmode raiding tanks especially the first ones, they all went mastery over haste. Now I'm not going to cite mastery is better but could you maybe just accept both are good? Rather than just stonewalling it for whatever reason you pick. I changed my point of view once I saw the evidence, hopefully others can do the same.

Adding the Keen Onyx now.

[Rivin]

The numbers that exist as of right now show Haste takes significantly more damage for the mild benefit to damage smoothing. Every time this is hinted at the same people list the same two things, SoI/BH and SS ticks. Neither of which can be proven to make up the damage difference.

Which numbers? The latest post about it on Sacred Duty still shows haste as only a minor loss in total damage reduction, and Theck himself thinks that haste is probably superior. I don't doubt that new information could've come up (considering how suddenly the "haste is good" and expertise hard cap information appeared), but you should provide sources.

[Xs]

Which numbers? The latest post about it on Sacred Duty still shows haste as only a minor loss in total damage reduction, and Theck himself thinks that haste is probably superior. I don't doubt that new information could've come up (considering how suddenly the "haste is good" and expertise hard cap information appeared), but you should provide sources.

I think he was getting a bit emotional in getting his point across, but its still a very valid point that hes making, and the way I've been doing it is to go for straight up caps > mastery if I'm telling someone, then give them the additional add in that haste is an interesting stat to think about once you've geared up from heroics and have the ability to pick and choose more rather than just making sure you hit all the artificial gear stoppers and caps

[Deleted]

While looking at the top tier tanks, every day more and more switch into haste. On my realm now 3/5 of the top guilds paladins use haste, 1 stamina + haste reforge, 1 mastery.

More and more tanks tests it out and realise how good it is. Fine, if you want to stone wall mastery, be my guest. The reason while most tanks went for mastery in the top guilds is very simply.

1. They stacked stamina. ( For which reasons the post paragons druid tank did back in Cata still holds many valuable points )
2. While stacking stamina your secondary stats were gimped
3. The gear in which the top guilds do content with is what you would call "undergeared". Which further gimps secondary stats.
4. Due to having so low secondary stats, they could not even hit the hit+expertise cap
5. Haste really relies on hit+expertise cap, hit and exp increases the value of haste so much, so if you do not even have points to go into hit+exp cap, you do not have points to go into haste either. The only option left was mastery which does not rely on hit+exp

Haste scales up with gear, every tier if no changes are made, haste will just pull further ahead from the other stats. '

OT:

Few enchants that should be added:

Gloves - Haste
Boots - Haste
Sha-Armor Kit ( where applicable for those stamina stackers )

Gems:

Following gems should be removed from the guide

Defenders Imperial Amethyst ( from both blue and red socket )
Fine Vermillion Onyx ( from both yellow and red socket )
Precise Primordial Ruby
Regal Wild Jade ( from both blue and yellow socket )

Following gems should be added

320exp
160 mastery/160 hit
160 haste/160 hit
160 haste/120 stamina