[MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

[Butler Log]

Oh yea, doh, I'll try that out, still have one o' those in the bank somewhere. Thanks (again)!

---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 04:29 PM ----------

What would you guys say is a "go get it" range for unbuffed HP? 600k? More or less? I ask this due to the massive chunk of HP I'm losing by replacing these trinkets and wondering if I should be okay with it or aim for more. Most bosses don't reallly get me low too often but having less HP makes me a tad fearful for stuff like Spirit Kings HC (last transition's a tank shredder).

I'm running 652k right now, if I equip a second stamina trinket I'm at 680k. Seems like enough so far (killed 5/16 25H)

[Zerdus]

Should I be getting DPS gear without crit over tank gear (dodge/parry)? For example, would it be more beneficial for me to get http://www.wowhead.com/item=90862 over http://www.wowhead.com/item=90860? (Klaxxi exalted quest).

[MerinPally]

Yes, just follow the stat priority and don't get bogged down with more complex things ^^ The only difference comes when you raid heroic 25mans at which point it should be obvious but if not, people on this forum are more than happy to assist.

Seal of the Bloodseeker is one of the best pre raid rings available to us, by a big margin.

[Soloz]

I'm running 652k right now, if I equip a second stamina trinket I'm at 680k. Seems like enough so far (killed 5/16 25H)

I run with 560k unbuffed 14/16 25H only fights I use stamina trinkets for is Lei shi HC and Protectors HC, probably will for Sha HC too though

[Auk]

After reading thecks latest blog post, I realised, I found myself disagreeing more and more with theck. Paladin tanking is like inception atm and I think he needs to go one layer deeper. Theck is great at logical conclusions, math and making good reasoning. However, I feel like his assumptions are not strong enough.
Think he looks to hard at the paper and to little on how tanking works in an actual raid encounter.

Care to elaborate?

Also find it strange that he does not understand the reason why dodge and parry is so horrible.

Where are you getting that from? He's, correctly, stating that dodge and parry are not good stats for multiple reasons, therefore fixing those stats is not simple. Did you actually read the entire post?

Here are the reasons he listed:

Diminishing returns
Dodge/parry provide uncontrollable survivability as well as being completely passive, we lack something like Revenge
Healer mana is pretty much never a concern in regards to healing tanks, so we don't care about TDR (the strength of dodge/parry)
Stat synergy between active mitigation stats (as well as active mitigation in general) reduces the value of dodge/parry

What other reasons can you come up with? And don't say "because of haste DPS", he's focusing solely on why dodge and parry are weak, not why other stats are better.

[Butler Log]

I run with 560k unbuffed 14/16 25H only fights I use stamina trinkets for is Lei shi HC and Protectors HC, probably will for Sha HC too though

Oops, missed the "unbuffed". I have 570k unbuffed. Could drop some stamina for haste. Don't have enough 500+ pieces to have that health without my 2/2 upgraded liquid courage though.

[Firefly33]

Where are you getting that from? He's, correctly, stating that dodge and parry are not good stats for multiple reasons, therefore fixing those stats is not simple. Did you actually read the entire post?

Here are the reasons he listed:

Diminishing returns
Dodge/parry provide uncontrollable survivability as well as being completely passive, we lack something like Revenge
Healer mana is pretty much never a concern in regards to healing tanks, so we don't care about TDR (the strength of dodge/parry)
Stat synergy between active mitigation stats (as well as active mitigation in general) reduces the value of dodge/parry

What other reasons can you come up with? And don't say "because of haste DPS", he's focusing solely on why dodge and parry are weak, not why other stats are better.

Well, firstly he said himself

"Unfortunately, it’s difficult to pinpoint a single reason that explains why dodge and parry perform so poorly."

Yes, he states several reasons. 1 of them is completely false and he is missing the most important reason. I can ellaborate later when I got time.


What I also disagree on alot of thecks posts (not specifically the last one, been thinking this a while) is that he makes 3 presumptions.

1. Boss damage is static
2. Disregard of boss abilities that deal physical damage
3. Tank damage is actually an issue. ( Damage smoothening means shit if a "spike" brings me down to 70% hp )

Now of course, you can not make a post covering every single mechanic in the game and how certain stuff in the game. So I do not really blame theck. I would probably do the same assumptions if I made blog posts, because it is alot easier that way. However, the reality is, that no boss figth is like that. Which is why a lot of thecks posts works on paper but not in practice.

[econ21]

What I also disagree on alot of thecks posts (not specifically the last one, been thinking this a while) is that he makes 3 presumptions.

1. Boss damage is static
2. Disregard of boss abilities that deal physical damage
3. Tank damage is actually an issue. ( Damage smoothening means shit if a "spike" brings me down to 70% hp )

On (1), what do you mean by "static"? If you mean constant, it does not square with his emphasis on modelling spikes. He keeps downplaying TDR stats.

On (2), in many of his past posts on maintankadin, he talked up physical damage and downplayed magic. ("It's the unblocked hit after the dragon breath that kills you" was an adage of his that I recall.) That was mainly Cata era; I haven't noticed a trend this expansion.

On (3), I think that's the starting point of any serious tank theorycrafting. Otherwise, you just persuade Simcraft to add your spec to their modelling. I think Theck's initial matlab simulations were for dps, perhaps because the damage reduction stuff was rather simple (Cata era) whereas the dps calculations were complex. Active mitigation has given him something to get his teeth into. I am not sure how much tank damage is an issue this expansion, as I am way behind the curve. I do know that I care a lot more about my survival than my dps as it has so much of a bigger affect on whether we wipe. But Theck recently posted that he likes the 2pc bonus as he often uses Ardent Defender being close to the death - so if you are a cutting edge tank (competitive 25H guild) like he is, may be it is an issue. He also favors stamina for similar reasons - he's getting hit hard.

[Auk]

Tanking theory depends a lot on exactly what content you are clearing. There is an enormous difference between say, 25H Empress and 10H Elegon. Heck, tank damage in heroic 10-mans is not an issue at all till you start getting to the harder bosses (Tsulong, Protectors, Sha, Empress, etc). In 25-mans it's no doubt much higher and survivability is of much more importance (as well as tanks sharing a smaller percentage of overall DPS).

[rawhammer]

Tanking theory depends a lot on exactly what content you are clearing. There is an enormous difference between say, 25H Empress and 10H Elegon. Heck, tank damage in heroic 10-mans is not an issue at all till you start getting to the harder bosses (Tsulong, Protectors, Sha, Empress, etc). In 25-mans it's no doubt much higher and survivability is of much more importance (as well as tanks sharing a smaller percentage of overall DPS).

I feel this is very true, as a 10 man raider (last 25 man I did was icc) I've never felt particularly at risk of dying from damage, and as such tank gear prioritise may differ somewhat to a 25 man environment. Heck, even when "solo" tanking hc elegon (as in staying on boss 100% of time) I never felt at particular risk of dying despite numerous stacks. The only boss I felt a bit vulnerable is wind lord, but honestly that's more due to a quickening dispel issue rather then a tank issue.

[Grimord]

I agree on the tank damage thing. On our progression I've only been having problems with survivability in Meljarak HC... But only when we tried to use 2 tanks! When I was tanking alone I had no issues whatsoever.

[Monolith of Mazes]

New 5.2 class thread

Paladin
To stave off the controversial Protection haste issue, we are making a chance to Grand Crusader to proc from dodge and parry at 25% instead of CS and HotR at 20%. This will improve dodge and parry slightly for active mitigation purposes without negating the +haste slant that many paladins have taken.

[Pinkcrusader]

Perhaps a stupid question from someone who only ever played Retribution & Holy:
As I currently have pretty haste-heavy retribution gear, if I find a suitable weapon and shield, will it at the same time be a viable tanking set?
No particular reason for asking, I'm just bored and waiting for 4.2

[Felir]

Perhaps a stupid question from someone who only ever played Retribution & Holy:
As I currently have pretty haste-heavy retribution gear, if I find a suitable weapon and shield, will it at the same time be a viable tanking set?
No particular reason for asking, I'm just bored and waiting for 4.2

As long as it doesn't have Crit.

[Teks]

New 5.2 class thread

Paladin
To stave off the controversial Protection haste issue, we are making a chance to Grand Crusader to proc from dodge and parry at 25% instead of CS and HotR at 20%. This will improve dodge and parry slightly for active mitigation purposes without negating the +haste slant that many paladins have taken.

Thoughts? Thoughts? Thoughts?

I haven't played protection this tier as much as everyone else of the active posters in here, but i think it's a decent solution. The benefits of haste will still be there and we can continue to stack it but when we see a dodge parry item it won't be an automatic "i pass".
How do you think this will affect gameplay ultimately?

[Butler Log]

Me likey!!

This looks like a single-target dps nerf (a slight one though) and a multi-target buff.

[Xs]

I'm glad they're not trying to kill haste with fire, but I'm not glad they're doing it through an ability thats both RNG and off tank unfriendly

[Firefly33]

I think the change itself is stupid but the impact of it is minor so as long as it doesn't mess up so much I am happy.

Kinda off-topic but talking about GC procs, procced 7 times in a row for me on Gara'Jal this week in the pull lol, was suprised. Sitting there "1 more? YES 1 MORE!"

Funny thing though. This change still doesn't "nerf haste". Since we will get less procs = more times we have to wait the entire cooldown = haste will reduce the cd more often.

Don't have maths rigth now, but very likely this changed absolutely nothing in haste value.

[Butler Log]

My napkin math says 7.2% less GC procs in my gear (25.4% avoidance, 18.78% haste) on a boss with a 1.5s swing timer (Elegon, for example).

This change still doesn't "nerf haste".

Remember, he said he didn't want to nerf haste, but buff avoidance.

[Nairobi]

Don't have maths rigth now, but very likely this changed absolutely nothing in haste value.

Kind of exactly my feeling on this. It just gives a consolation prize for getting "less than ideal" stats, doesn't make us aim for them.

But SHHHHH, don't tell them that!

edit: I don't see anything about an ICD on this. Granted, it's early development, but...without an ICD, things like Wind Lord are going to be TEH LULZ DPS. Should non-trivially help on trash as well, assuming 2-3 adds on us.