1. #981
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Guys, I currently have the Darkmoon Trinket and the Valor one. I just got DArkmist Vortex (Str + Haste proc) from Lei Shi. I'm thinking about using it instead of the DArkmoon one... Is it the best option or the proc isn't worth it?
    Depends entirely upon your gear. I lose around 900 haste by not using Ghost Iron Dragonling and the randomness of the proc aside Darkmist is still a DPS upgrade. For what it's worth i'm ranking top 20 on a lot of fights, just got world 3rd Protection Paladin on heroic Tsulong tonight actually.

    That said, Ghost Iron Dragonling or Darkmist are better than the darkmoon one.

  2. #982
    Deleted
    The boring thing with rankings on so many figths as there are so many ways to cheese the rankings. Alot of players are having their raid group use a specific tactic to get more dps. The only thing I have done to get rankings is just push more dps and sometimes stand in shit with cds on to get more vengeance.

  3. #983
    Deleted
    I don't care about rankings. I care about killing stuff and being on top of my game. Just did Sha of Fear with the new trinket. It's okay. But yea, I haven't yet grabbed a Lei Shen. Would it be viable to use Lei Shen + Dark Mist? (currently using Dark Mist + Valor one).

  4. #984
    Deleted
    Ofc it would be viable but I would still prefer Ghost Iron Dragonling over both those trinkets. Unless you are engineer.

  5. #985
    Deleted
    Dragonling with Haste + Mastery + ?? is superior to these? Damn, I'm outdated on this stuff.

  6. #986
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Dragonling with Haste + Mastery + ?? is superior to these? Damn, I'm outdated on this stuff.
    Personally I would use haste hit and exp. Allows for the most haste stacking.
    Since less hit/exp gems/reforge = more haste gems/reforge.

  7. #987
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Personally I would use haste hit and exp. Allows for the most haste stacking.
    Since less hit/exp gems/reforge = more haste gems/reforge.
    Oh yea, doh, I'll try that out, still have one o' those in the bank somewhere. Thanks (again)!

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 04:29 PM ----------

    What would you guys say is a "go get it" range for unbuffed HP? 600k? More or less? I ask this due to the massive chunk of HP I'm losing by replacing these trinkets and wondering if I should be okay with it or aim for more. Most bosses don't reallly get me low too often but having less HP makes me a tad fearful for stuff like Spirit Kings HC (last transition's a tank shredder).

  8. #988
    Deleted
    After reading thecks latest blog post, I realised, I found myself disagreeing more and more with theck. Paladin tanking is like inception atm and I think he needs to go one layer deeper. Theck is great at logical conclusions, math and making good reasoning. However, I feel like his assumptions are not strong enough.
    Think he looks to hard at the paper and to little on how tanking works in an actual raid encounter.

    Unfortunately, it’s difficult to pinpoint a single reason that explains why dodge and parry perform so poorly.
    Also find it strange that he does not understand the reason why dodge and parry is so horrible.

  9. #989
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Oh yea, doh, I'll try that out, still have one o' those in the bank somewhere. Thanks (again)!

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 04:29 PM ----------

    What would you guys say is a "go get it" range for unbuffed HP? 600k? More or less? I ask this due to the massive chunk of HP I'm losing by replacing these trinkets and wondering if I should be okay with it or aim for more. Most bosses don't reallly get me low too often but having less HP makes me a tad fearful for stuff like Spirit Kings HC (last transition's a tank shredder).
    I'm running 652k right now, if I equip a second stamina trinket I'm at 680k. Seems like enough so far (killed 5/16 25H)

  10. #990
    Should I be getting DPS gear without crit over tank gear (dodge/parry)? For example, would it be more beneficial for me to get http://www.wowhead.com/item=90862 over http://www.wowhead.com/item=90860? (Klaxxi exalted quest).

  11. #991
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    Yes, just follow the stat priority and don't get bogged down with more complex things ^^ The only difference comes when you raid heroic 25mans at which point it should be obvious but if not, people on this forum are more than happy to assist.

    Seal of the Bloodseeker is one of the best pre raid rings available to us, by a big margin.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nicus/advanced
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    Also a vegetable is a person.
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    I dont care if they [gays] are allowed to donate [blood], but I think we should have an option to refuse gay blood if we need to receive blood.

  12. #992
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    I'm running 652k right now, if I equip a second stamina trinket I'm at 680k. Seems like enough so far (killed 5/16 25H)

    I run with 560k unbuffed 14/16 25H only fights I use stamina trinkets for is Lei shi HC and Protectors HC, probably will for Sha HC too though

    ......................Protection Paladin PoV.....................

  13. #993
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    After reading thecks latest blog post, I realised, I found myself disagreeing more and more with theck. Paladin tanking is like inception atm and I think he needs to go one layer deeper. Theck is great at logical conclusions, math and making good reasoning. However, I feel like his assumptions are not strong enough.
    Think he looks to hard at the paper and to little on how tanking works in an actual raid encounter.
    Care to elaborate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Also find it strange that he does not understand the reason why dodge and parry is so horrible.
    Where are you getting that from? He's, correctly, stating that dodge and parry are not good stats for multiple reasons, therefore fixing those stats is not simple. Did you actually read the entire post?

    Here are the reasons he listed:

    Diminishing returns
    Dodge/parry provide uncontrollable survivability as well as being completely passive, we lack something like Revenge
    Healer mana is pretty much never a concern in regards to healing tanks, so we don't care about TDR (the strength of dodge/parry)
    Stat synergy between active mitigation stats (as well as active mitigation in general) reduces the value of dodge/parry

    What other reasons can you come up with? And don't say "because of haste DPS", he's focusing solely on why dodge and parry are weak, not why other stats are better.
    Last edited by mmocc7215da24b; 2013-02-02 at 08:27 AM.

  14. #994
    Quote Originally Posted by Soloz View Post
    I run with 560k unbuffed 14/16 25H only fights I use stamina trinkets for is Lei shi HC and Protectors HC, probably will for Sha HC too though
    Oops, missed the "unbuffed". I have 570k unbuffed. Could drop some stamina for haste. Don't have enough 500+ pieces to have that health without my 2/2 upgraded liquid courage though.

  15. #995
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Auk View Post
    Where are you getting that from? He's, correctly, stating that dodge and parry are not good stats for multiple reasons, therefore fixing those stats is not simple. Did you actually read the entire post?

    Here are the reasons he listed:

    Diminishing returns
    Dodge/parry provide uncontrollable survivability as well as being completely passive, we lack something like Revenge
    Healer mana is pretty much never a concern in regards to healing tanks, so we don't care about TDR (the strength of dodge/parry)
    Stat synergy between active mitigation stats (as well as active mitigation in general) reduces the value of dodge/parry

    What other reasons can you come up with? And don't say "because of haste DPS", he's focusing solely on why dodge and parry are weak, not why other stats are better.
    Well, firstly he said himself

    "Unfortunately, it’s difficult to pinpoint a single reason that explains why dodge and parry perform so poorly."

    Yes, he states several reasons. 1 of them is completely false and he is missing the most important reason. I can ellaborate later when I got time.


    What I also disagree on alot of thecks posts (not specifically the last one, been thinking this a while) is that he makes 3 presumptions.

    1. Boss damage is static
    2. Disregard of boss abilities that deal physical damage
    3. Tank damage is actually an issue. ( Damage smoothening means shit if a "spike" brings me down to 70% hp )

    Now of course, you can not make a post covering every single mechanic in the game and how certain stuff in the game. So I do not really blame theck. I would probably do the same assumptions if I made blog posts, because it is alot easier that way. However, the reality is, that no boss figth is like that. Which is why a lot of thecks posts works on paper but not in practice.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-02-02 at 11:59 AM.

  16. #996
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    What I also disagree on alot of thecks posts (not specifically the last one, been thinking this a while) is that he makes 3 presumptions.

    1. Boss damage is static
    2. Disregard of boss abilities that deal physical damage
    3. Tank damage is actually an issue. ( Damage smoothening means shit if a "spike" brings me down to 70% hp )
    On (1), what do you mean by "static"? If you mean constant, it does not square with his emphasis on modelling spikes. He keeps downplaying TDR stats.

    On (2), in many of his past posts on maintankadin, he talked up physical damage and downplayed magic. ("It's the unblocked hit after the dragon breath that kills you" was an adage of his that I recall.) That was mainly Cata era; I haven't noticed a trend this expansion.

    On (3), I think that's the starting point of any serious tank theorycrafting. Otherwise, you just persuade Simcraft to add your spec to their modelling. I think Theck's initial matlab simulations were for dps, perhaps because the damage reduction stuff was rather simple (Cata era) whereas the dps calculations were complex. Active mitigation has given him something to get his teeth into. I am not sure how much tank damage is an issue this expansion, as I am way behind the curve. I do know that I care a lot more about my survival than my dps as it has so much of a bigger affect on whether we wipe. But Theck recently posted that he likes the 2pc bonus as he often uses Ardent Defender being close to the death - so if you are a cutting edge tank (competitive 25H guild) like he is, may be it is an issue. He also favors stamina for similar reasons - he's getting hit hard.

  17. #997
    Deleted
    Tanking theory depends a lot on exactly what content you are clearing. There is an enormous difference between say, 25H Empress and 10H Elegon. Heck, tank damage in heroic 10-mans is not an issue at all till you start getting to the harder bosses (Tsulong, Protectors, Sha, Empress, etc). In 25-mans it's no doubt much higher and survivability is of much more importance (as well as tanks sharing a smaller percentage of overall DPS).

  18. #998
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Auk View Post
    Tanking theory depends a lot on exactly what content you are clearing. There is an enormous difference between say, 25H Empress and 10H Elegon. Heck, tank damage in heroic 10-mans is not an issue at all till you start getting to the harder bosses (Tsulong, Protectors, Sha, Empress, etc). In 25-mans it's no doubt much higher and survivability is of much more importance (as well as tanks sharing a smaller percentage of overall DPS).
    I feel this is very true, as a 10 man raider (last 25 man I did was icc) I've never felt particularly at risk of dying from damage, and as such tank gear prioritise may differ somewhat to a 25 man environment. Heck, even when "solo" tanking hc elegon (as in staying on boss 100% of time) I never felt at particular risk of dying despite numerous stacks. The only boss I felt a bit vulnerable is wind lord, but honestly that's more due to a quickening dispel issue rather then a tank issue.

  19. #999
    Deleted
    I agree on the tank damage thing. On our progression I've only been having problems with survivability in Meljarak HC... But only when we tried to use 2 tanks! When I was tanking alone I had no issues whatsoever.

  20. #1000
    New 5.2 class thread

    Paladin
    To stave off the controversial Protection haste issue, we are making a chance to Grand Crusader to proc from dodge and parry at 25% instead of CS and HotR at 20%. This will improve dodge and parry slightly for active mitigation purposes without negating the +haste slant that many paladins have taken.


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