1. #1101
    Fluffy Kitten Fhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Grab the crit piece if its not going to screw with your caps
    If the same ilevel, I would go with the dodge/parry instead (although best to look for another piece, unless you absolutely cannot find one). You can reforge dodge too. That way you end up with 3 useful stats, instead of 2 useful and 1 totally useless. Of course, this is assuming caps are reached.

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  2. #1102
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    If the same ilevel, I would go with the dodge/parry instead (although best to look for another piece, unless you absolutely cannot find one). You can reforge dodge too. That way you end up with 3 useful stats, instead of 2 useful and 1 totally useless. Of course, this is assuming caps are reached.
    I wouldn't call crit totally useless really, if you're hitting bosses for crazy amounts with vengeance stacked and you've got 5-10% crit, those little bits of crit are really going to make a difference, and if you're stacking haste already you probably value DPS at least a little bit.

  3. #1103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    I wouldn't call crit totally useless really, if you're hitting bosses for crazy amounts with vengeance stacked and you've got 5-10% crit, those little bits of crit are really going to make a difference, and if you're stacking haste already you probably value DPS at least a little bit.
    Mm, I'm not sure I agree there. Crit is nice when you're stacking it, or at least have a decent amount of it. It's nice for ret because we have +10% from Inq (which slightly devalues other stats to the point where it's sort of good, still not the best). But for prot, we have no such modifier, and we don't have enough on our gear to make it better than dodge. Essentially, that is what we're comparing - dodge to crit, and parry to haste.

    Also, haste is as much a survivability as it is a dps stat. Haste is good not so much for the extra dps, but for more Shield uptime.

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  4. #1104
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    Also, haste is as much a survivability as it is a dps stat. Haste is good not so much for the extra dps, but for more Shield uptime.
    Different strokes really, but I personally value damage on tanks quite a lot, and from a healer perspective I actively hate any Dodges/Parries as they'll almost always end in overheal, be it from hots or pre-casting/beacon

    Not sure why I only quoted that part, but I guess I was going to say if you don't value the dps from haste, you might aswell go mastery and not have the gear struggle

  5. #1105
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    With the regards to the above conversation, I would say it's impossible to tell on a simple description of what stats were present because it is totally dependent on your current gear situation and the exact item links. Otherwise you'll get a huge divide. Offer us that extra information to ensure you don't get a view as conflicted as what you'll get by providing such scant details!

  6. #1106
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    If the same ilevel, I would go with the dodge/parry instead (although best to look for another piece, unless you absolutely cannot find one). You can reforge dodge too. That way you end up with 3 useful stats, instead of 2 useful and 1 totally useless. Of course, this is assuming caps are reached.
    I personally would value crit higher than dodge and parry. I would also much sooner call dodge/parry useless than crit. Crit is actually quite valuable for 10 man tanks.
    DPS is better than nothing.


    ---------- Post added 2013-02-11 at 02:10 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    Also, haste is as much a survivability as it is a dps stat. Haste is good not so much for the extra dps, but for more Shield uptime.
    Haste is horrible for pure survivability. It is a great smoothening stat though, but smoothening doesn't make it good for survivability. It gives healers a bit easier job with conserving mana though. The main part of haste (disregarding the fun factor) is the DPS.

    Survivability, Smoothening, TDR. These words get thrown around to much without people thinking what they actually mean.

    I am not saying that haste is bad ofc though, it is the king stat because survivability is not the tanks Nr1 concern atm. I just think that the misconception between stats should be sorted out.

    This may differ from what you have been told, and that is actually because people forget the actual meaning of Survivability, Smoothening, DPS etc.

    Stats not worth mentioning in the departments are not mentioned.


    Survivability: Sta/Mastery(read below)>Sta>Mastery(read below)>>>>>>>>(can't put enough > to show how far haste,hit and exp is behind here)>>>>>>haste>hit>exp

    Mastery is better on physical damage spikes, stamina on magic. Obviously.
    There is mathematic formula to determine which of the 2 is best depending on three factors.
    1. Your current stamina
    2. Your current mastery
    3. The magic to physical damage ratio

    I can try to find it later, have it somewhere in my paladin tank notes.

    Smoothening: Hit>Exp>Haste>>>>>>Mastery

    TDR: This category is not worth mentioning in a serious tanking discussion, as smoothening and survivability saves your healers mana, not TDR. TDR really does nothing for us. TDR is only worth mentioning in paladin soloing.

    DPS: Hit>Exp>Str(no vengeance)>Haste>Crit>Str(normal vengeance)

    Stats that do not place in any category due to being to weak:

    Int: Provide small spell crit chance
    Agi: Provide little dodge, can't remember if it still provides small amount of armor or not. Still, negliable.
    Dodge/Parry: Provides nothing really. Some random dodges and parries. Will provide a few more GC procs in the next patch but that is not relevant at this moment as GC is not finalized.
    For tanking, the only use this stat see is when you are tanking 6-10+ mobs. Anything below that, this stat helps you in no way to survive a boss fight.


    Now here comes the trick question, the question that is the basis of paladin tanking.
    We determined that we have 4 categories. ( Actually a fifth category that noone every brings up that is the most impotant one for paladin tanking ). But lets just look at these 4 categories, since they are the ones that we always speak about.

    DPS, TDR, Smoothening, Survivability.

    The problem with these are that the categories blend together. TDR blends into smoothening, and smoothening blends in survivability, especially in 25 man. So we need to make difference on what is what. Basically we are throwing three different colors in a bowl and mixing them around. Now we need to seperate the colors again. Something may look green but it is actually blue and yellow.

    Lets start with DPS, is DPS important? The obvious answer is yes. Though, a dead tank is dead raid. So does it take priority of the other categories? No. As long as the other categories are an issue. DPS always comes last, however, as soon as the other categories are a non issue, DPS becomes the most important one.

    TDR, is it important? Short answer, no.
    There are two kinds of TDR. the TDR we see from dodge and parry, which is completely useless. and the TDR we see from smoothening stats, which actually is useful, however it kind of blends into smoothening. The useful TDR all comes from smoothening, so in short, TDR is not important, since the only imprtant TDR falls into the smoothening category.

    Smoothening, is it important? Short answer again, no.
    It can be good in the start of the expansion when healer mana can be an issue. Smoothening will let your healers reserve more mana.
    As above, there is one kind of smoothening that is good. That kind is when the damage in-take is constantly high and lethal. This occurs more in 25 man than 10 man, since boss melee swings hits for a higher % of the tank health in 25 man. Making smoothening better in 25 than 10. However, this kind of smoothening again falls into survivability. We need to seperate the colors from the bowl. While it may look like smoothening, it is actually survibility, so short answer is still, no, smoothening is not important. ( however not as unimportant as TDR ).
    In previous expansions, smoothening and survivability was closer together, but due to how bosses are designed to be very bursty at some points in this expansion, they no longer are.

    Survivability, is it important? Short answer, yes.
    This is the only part that is important about paladin tanking ( or any tank for that matter ). Removing tank deaths. That happens by surviving the spiky natures of the boss fights as I mentioned earlier. This is best done by mastery and stamina.
    However, now comes the next question? Do we need more survivabilty then we get with our passive stats? (i.e. stamina, armor and the CD's and abilities we have). In 10 man in this tier, no, no we don't. In 25 man it is another story. This is why we see 10 man tanks opt for haste more than 25 man tanks.

    As long as survivability is not an issue, DPS becomes the most important category. This happens more often in 10 than 25 since 10 man tank damage is lower making survivability less important.


    Edit: A graph for when mastery is better than stamina for a predictable damage spike.
    Presumptions: 100% physical damage
    100% predictable spike.
    I.e. Adds on empress, bladelords falcon punch, viziers channel, sha of fear thrash, etc. You get the point

    X axis = Current SotR damage reduction
    Y axis = The limit of hp (in thousands) where mastery becomes better.

    I.e. if you have 0 mastery for god knows what reason, mastery is better at roughly 630k hp~



    If you wanna run this for a damage spike with mixed physical and magic damage. Simply input

    (y+9096)/(1/((1-x)/A)) = z
    y/(1/((1-(x+0.01))/A)) = z

    in an equation system solver where Y is stamina, X is SotR reduction and A is the physical damage%, i.e. if 80% of the damage taken is physical A = 0.8.
    Which of course becomes more complex if you are using a magical damage reduction cooldown. Which I am way to tired to compute atm since I probably did some errors already.

    So firstly gonna fix my errors tomorrow before making something like that
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-11 at 05:24 AM.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #1107
    Epic! GenaiTN's Avatar
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    Too much math for monday morning firefly. I haven't even had my coffee yet

  8. #1108
    There's not nearly enough coffee in the world to have that make any sense on a Monday morning #.#

  9. #1109
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    There's not nearly enough coffee in the world to have that make any sense on a Monday morning #.#
    Basically, most predicatable huge damage spikes are short enough to have 100% damage coverage with SotR. Adds on empress (until the first add dies/retargets) etc.

    The situations when you can not you have near 100% uptime. In any situation when you have 100% uptime and it is physical damage, mastery is always better (as you need less then 550k hp with BoM to make mastery better ).

    Which is just the thing, go through your damage taken logs from boss figths this expansion. On a vast majority of the logs you will notice a trend. You take very low damage taken, just to get a huge spike for between 1 global to 10 seconds. In most cases the damage taken between these spikes is irrelevent.

    Just look through you own logs, I opened a few of our last kills just to show you examples, by no means are these the extremes.

    This is my DTPS for some fights.



    It does not take a hawkeye to spot out on those graphs, where am I most likely to die?

    You notice the trends of having down times where you barely take damage just to take a huge spike. If playing correctly, you will bank up 5 HoPo during these "low times" and on most fights, this will give you 100% uptime (presuming it is not thrash on sha or similar ability, only need 3 HoPo then ofc) on SotR on the parts that actually matter. And those damage spikes are what we are looking at when we are talking about survivability. You are not going to die when the boss is hitting you or 40k-50k DTPS, you can almost outheal that yourself.
    (except in 25 man when boss damage is alot higher).
    Though, haste, hit and expertise, smoothening stats, are doing work in all areas. Including the low areas. Whereas survivability stats, stam and mastery, is doing work in the spikes (if played properly with SotR). Which is why stam and mastery is the best tanking stats for paladins (in term of tanking). Mastery is simply king for reducing those spikes and stamina for surviving them.

    However, that is also presuming that those spikes are actually deadly. If those spikes are low enough to be handled with your own cooldowns and a regular hasted SotR. This again, happens more in 10 man because tank damage is lower which is why we see this happen to 10 man tanks.
    Then suddenly DPS stats becomes king. Good enough for us, haste, hit, exp are the three best dps stats and also provide smoothening. So we get a bit two birds in a stone.

    And this is also why dodge and parry are completely, utter, otter shit.

    Dodge and parry gives us nothing during the spikes, you can get an RNG proc sometimes but that doesnt count really.
    Dodge and parry give us nothing during the low times either, as when you dodge or parry an attack during that time, you are taking so little damage that it is very likely that your SoI and healers HoTs will heal you up, so dodge and parry only cause overhealing here.

    So really, the value of dodge and parry for tanking is 0, unless you are tanking multiple multiple multiple mobs, in which case it rises from not being a tanking stat to being the worst tanking stat.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #1110
    Epic! GenaiTN's Avatar
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    nerd.
    jks luv u firefly

  11. #1111
    Quote Originally Posted by Felir View Post
    nerd.
    jks luv u firefly
    Seeing as I got the equivelent of high school math education, it is not really that hard haha

    The thing is, this is differenting tanking in theory and tanking in practice. Tanking in practice need to be determined by a fight to fight basis, but in this tier a majority of the fights were similar in damage in-take. We will have to wait and see the next tier.

    Thecks math this tier has been entirely tanking in theory.

    His damage smoothening has presumed that you have a boss constantly hitting you for the same amount, dealing consistant damage.
    I do not blame him though, that is the most accurate way to model tanking mathematically, however tanking in practice, cannot be modelled generally, it needs to be looked at more specific cases.

    We see from legs, you can look at my logs above, that the damage is not a straight line, as far from as possible. And thecks math about smoothening is basically about how to take the smoothest damage in those low zones in the damage taken graphs and pretending like those spikes do not exist. That you are taking constant low zones the entire fight.

    Which holds more value in 25 than 10 since the low zones are higher in 25. This is why smoothening looks like the king stat on paper. I.e. hit, expertise, haste. However in reality, stamina and mastery are the king stat as they are best with dealing with the spikes. And then we are not talking about the same spikes theck is talking about. Theck is talking about when you spike in that constant stream of damage because you do not have damage reducion up. I am talking about the spikes where the boss damage suddenly goes up 200%.

    Though, as we seen in this tier, the boss damage spikes have not been high enough, in 10 man, to justify mastery and stamina on most fights making DPS the FotM for paladins.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-11 at 03:07 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #1112
    Epic! GenaiTN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Seeing as I got the equivelent of high school math education, it is not really that hard haha
    Where the hell are you from?
    In England we learn 1+1 in Secondary School (high school) and that's about it.

  13. #1113
    Quote Originally Posted by Felir View Post
    Where the hell are you from?
    In England we learn 1+1 in Secondary School (high school) and that's about it.
    I am from sweden

    I meant a bit higher than high school. Gone to upper secondary school in english terms.

    However I read a math/computer oriented education which is equal to lower levels of uni maths.

    In high school we did learn equations, second term equations and easy derivate however. Sweden _/
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  14. #1114
    Epic! GenaiTN's Avatar
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    Ah, like college? Sweden has got an awesome education system. England is in shambles, which isn't a massive shocker.

    That would make sense.

  15. #1115
    Quote Originally Posted by Felir View Post
    Ah, like college? Sweden has got an awesome education system. England is in shambles, which isn't a massive shocker.

    That would make sense.
    I think the way an English person would put that given their education is:
    MASTERY GUD 25 MAN
    HASTE GUD 10 MAN

  16. #1116
    Epic! GenaiTN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    I think the way an English person would put that given their education is:
    MASTERY GUD 25 MAN
    HASTE GUD 10 MAN
    Wow, what a cuntish thing to say.

  17. #1117
    Fluffy Kitten Fhi's Avatar
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    Firefly,

    I'll be the first to admit, most of what I know is from reading and analyzing what others who do the actual work say. You make quite a case for the whole dodge/parry is shit thing. Did not expect those stats to be useless really.

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  18. #1118
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    I think the way an English person would put that given their education is:
    MASTERY GUD 25 MAN
    HASTE GUD 10 MAN
    Yes, but the common misconception is that haste is good because "smoothening is king". That is just false. Mastery is the best defensive stat in 10 aswell. Just that defensive stats aren't really needed making haste a strong stat because it is the strongest dps stat except hit and exp and it provides some damage reduction aswell.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #1119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yes, but the common misconception is that haste is good because "smoothening is king". That is just false. Mastery is the best defensive stat in 10 aswell. Just that defensive stats aren't really needed making haste a strong stat because it is the strongest dps stat except hit and exp and it provides some damage reduction aswell.
    Extra hps never hurts in 10 mans too. Especially when you're 2 healing a boss. *Which most guilds do anyway nowadays*
    Also, extra absorbs from Sacred Shield. Godly if you're using a Brewmaster Tank.

  20. #1120
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    Firefly,

    I'll be the first to admit, most of what I know is from reading and analyzing what others who do the actual work say. You make quite a case for the whole dodge/parry is shit thing. Did not expect those stats to be useless really.
    I mean really think about it, what is the effect of a dodge and parry? You most likely have hots on you, you have SoI, you have heals incoming. If you dodge and 150k attack, it is very likely that the actualy damage reduction is closer to 0-50k. Since the rest just becomes overhealing.

    As said earlier, since the tank damage in this tier has been so that you take 50% of the damage during the fight in 10% of the duration. Basically very predictable damage spikes, the odds of actually getting an useful dodge and parry within that time frame is very low, and not something you should count on. I mean sure, you could get a dodge or parry. But adding another 2-4% dodge or parry won't make it reliable. You will still have times you got 0 dodges and parries and you just can not count for that.

    Not to mention the DR.

    Dodge and parry currently contribute 0 dps, will change in patch.

    If I am tanking 10 adds and have say 25% chance to dodge and parry. It is fairly safe to say I will dodge/parry atleast 1 attack per attack round. For a total damage reduction of about 10%. Sure, sometimes I will get 2-6 dodges and parries, but that again falls into overhealing. Having 1 dodge/parry is almost guaranteed in that scenario and is the number we need to look at. In that case, that 25% dodge and parry only have 10% actual effectiveness instead of 25%.
    Though this is the scenario where dodge and parry actually got some weigth. When you have so many attacks that you can almost be 100% sure to get x numbers of dodge and parries. However the effectiveness is far below that of what people think.

    The reason is as I mentioned in earlier posts. People that are theorycrafting tanking presumes "We take x amount of damage per second through the entire fight".
    In this scenario, dodge and parry looks semi decent. However the important thing is to still remember the overhealing argument, and that, no fight is designed like that. There is not a single fight this tier where the damage is constant or even near constant.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-11 at 05:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Felir View Post
    Extra hps never hurts in 10 mans too. Especially when you're 2 healing a boss. *Which most guilds do anyway nowadays*
    Also, extra absorbs from Sacred Shield. Godly if you're using a Brewmaster Tank.
    Yeah, those are the nice parts of haste, but they still fall into the smoothening category. Linearly increased "passive" healing and absorbs are smoothening.

    This is why haste is the king stat, it provides nice smoothening (faster SotRs, increased SS, increased healing) + dps.

    Though if we lived in a bubble where tank did 0 dps and the only concern was to survive, mastery would make a better job if the said paladin knows how to bank up HoPo properly and use his SotR.

    Just for the record as most know, I stack haste, since DPS is king this tier for tanks.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-11 at 05:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Felir View Post
    Wow, what a cuntish thing to say.
    Bloody 'ell!

    'at a twatty chap 'at is!

    I need a sip of tea!
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-11 at 04:51 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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