1. #1101
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Felir View Post
    Where the hell are you from?
    In England we learn 1+1 in Secondary School (high school) and that's about it.
    I am from sweden

    I meant a bit higher than high school. Gone to upper secondary school in english terms.

    However I read a math/computer oriented education which is equal to lower levels of uni maths.

    In high school we did learn equations, second term equations and easy derivate however. Sweden _/

  2. #1102
    Deleted
    Ah, like college? Sweden has got an awesome education system. England is in shambles, which isn't a massive shocker.

    That would make sense.

  3. #1103
    Quote Originally Posted by Felir View Post
    Ah, like college? Sweden has got an awesome education system. England is in shambles, which isn't a massive shocker.

    That would make sense.
    I think the way an English person would put that given their education is:
    MASTERY GUD 25 MAN
    HASTE GUD 10 MAN

  4. #1104
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    I think the way an English person would put that given their education is:
    MASTERY GUD 25 MAN
    HASTE GUD 10 MAN
    Wow, what a cuntish thing to say.

  5. #1105
    The Lightbringer Fhi's Avatar
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    Firefly,

    I'll be the first to admit, most of what I know is from reading and analyzing what others who do the actual work say. You make quite a case for the whole dodge/parry is shit thing. Did not expect those stats to be useless really.

  6. #1106
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    I think the way an English person would put that given their education is:
    MASTERY GUD 25 MAN
    HASTE GUD 10 MAN
    Yes, but the common misconception is that haste is good because "smoothening is king". That is just false. Mastery is the best defensive stat in 10 aswell. Just that defensive stats aren't really needed making haste a strong stat because it is the strongest dps stat except hit and exp and it provides some damage reduction aswell.

  7. #1107
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yes, but the common misconception is that haste is good because "smoothening is king". That is just false. Mastery is the best defensive stat in 10 aswell. Just that defensive stats aren't really needed making haste a strong stat because it is the strongest dps stat except hit and exp and it provides some damage reduction aswell.
    Extra hps never hurts in 10 mans too. Especially when you're 2 healing a boss. *Which most guilds do anyway nowadays*
    Also, extra absorbs from Sacred Shield. Godly if you're using a Brewmaster Tank.

  8. #1108
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    Firefly,

    I'll be the first to admit, most of what I know is from reading and analyzing what others who do the actual work say. You make quite a case for the whole dodge/parry is shit thing. Did not expect those stats to be useless really.
    I mean really think about it, what is the effect of a dodge and parry? You most likely have hots on you, you have SoI, you have heals incoming. If you dodge and 150k attack, it is very likely that the actualy damage reduction is closer to 0-50k. Since the rest just becomes overhealing.

    As said earlier, since the tank damage in this tier has been so that you take 50% of the damage during the fight in 10% of the duration. Basically very predictable damage spikes, the odds of actually getting an useful dodge and parry within that time frame is very low, and not something you should count on. I mean sure, you could get a dodge or parry. But adding another 2-4% dodge or parry won't make it reliable. You will still have times you got 0 dodges and parries and you just can not count for that.

    Not to mention the DR.

    Dodge and parry currently contribute 0 dps, will change in patch.

    If I am tanking 10 adds and have say 25% chance to dodge and parry. It is fairly safe to say I will dodge/parry atleast 1 attack per attack round. For a total damage reduction of about 10%. Sure, sometimes I will get 2-6 dodges and parries, but that again falls into overhealing. Having 1 dodge/parry is almost guaranteed in that scenario and is the number we need to look at. In that case, that 25% dodge and parry only have 10% actual effectiveness instead of 25%.
    Though this is the scenario where dodge and parry actually got some weigth. When you have so many attacks that you can almost be 100% sure to get x numbers of dodge and parries. However the effectiveness is far below that of what people think.

    The reason is as I mentioned in earlier posts. People that are theorycrafting tanking presumes "We take x amount of damage per second through the entire fight".
    In this scenario, dodge and parry looks semi decent. However the important thing is to still remember the overhealing argument, and that, no fight is designed like that. There is not a single fight this tier where the damage is constant or even near constant.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-11 at 05:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Felir View Post
    Extra hps never hurts in 10 mans too. Especially when you're 2 healing a boss. *Which most guilds do anyway nowadays*
    Also, extra absorbs from Sacred Shield. Godly if you're using a Brewmaster Tank.
    Yeah, those are the nice parts of haste, but they still fall into the smoothening category. Linearly increased "passive" healing and absorbs are smoothening.

    This is why haste is the king stat, it provides nice smoothening (faster SotRs, increased SS, increased healing) + dps.

    Though if we lived in a bubble where tank did 0 dps and the only concern was to survive, mastery would make a better job if the said paladin knows how to bank up HoPo properly and use his SotR.

    Just for the record as most know, I stack haste, since DPS is king this tier for tanks.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-11 at 05:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Felir View Post
    Wow, what a cuntish thing to say.
    Bloody 'ell!

    'at a twatty chap 'at is!

    I need a sip of tea!
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-02-11 at 04:51 PM.

  9. #1109
    Quote Originally Posted by Felir View Post
    Wow, what a cuntish thing to say.
    Well, we English are cunts to each other

  10. #1110
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Whereas survivability stats, stam and mastery, is doing work in the spikes (if played properly with SotR).
    Would have been nice if your graphs had included some timeline and maybe even some indication when SotR (and ohter CDs) was actually up. Because high mastery could make smooth damage look spiky (and the even spacing of your spikes is pretty suspicious).

    Given the right circumstances it could even leave relatively smooth damage intake that would have been no problem with enough haste (due to self healing and overall reduction of damage intake) dangerous due to higher healing intake needed (the spikes when SotR falls off would even look like in your graphs).

  11. #1111
    Deleted
    Dudes, need help with something.

    From the prot tier I only have gloves and legs. I just got a chest token and I'm wondering: Should I grab the Ret chest (better stats) or the prot one (and work for the 4p bonus)?

    I'm tending heavily towards the Ret one but any insight would be appreciated.

  12. #1112
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Dudes, need help with something.

    From the prot tier I only have gloves and legs. I just got a chest token and I'm wondering: Should I grab the Ret chest (better stats) or the prot one (and work for the 4p bonus)?

    I'm tending heavily towards the Ret one but any insight would be appreciated.
    We are very close to the next tier so you are very likely to break your 4set very quickly, if you even get it before the patch. On top of that, I have never been a fan of the T14 prot set, always preferred retset / offset routes.

    I would not get it, but the choice is yours. If you are raiding 25 you could consider it.

  13. #1113
    Deleted
    Nope, strictly 10-man. And I didn't like the Prot set bonuses that much either, even though the 2p did prove useful one time or another.

  14. #1114
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Would have been nice if your graphs had included some timeline and maybe even some indication when SotR (and ohter CDs) was actually up. Because high mastery could make smooth damage look spiky (and the even spacing of your spikes is pretty suspicious).

    Given the right circumstances it could even leave relatively smooth damage intake that would have been no problem with enough haste (due to self healing and overall reduction of damage intake) dangerous due to higher healing intake needed (the spikes when SotR falls off would even look like in your graphs).
    If you refer the WoL graphs.
    The graphs from my damage taken is entire fights from start to end. So the timespan is between 6 and 10 minutes.
    Also I do not believe WoL is that sensitive that your DTPS will go up and down in between SotRs

    Also, cooldowns are used in the peaks, not the floors of the graphs. Without proper cd usage those spikes would be even higher.
    But yeah, looking at those logs I can tell exactly what every single spike is (and it is all some predictable boss ability)

    Just look at your own logs and check damage taken.

    Haste build will never have a smoother damage in-take on a short burst spike than mastery. Unless it is 100% magic damage ofc, in which case, stamina would be better either way.

    I am haste stacked not mastery stacked. Since the damage in-take is not a concern either way, can be handled with own cooldowns. DPS is the only issue for 10 man tanks really.
    Though, if bosses did say 50-100% more damage than currently, then I would probably be mastery stacked since it is better for survival.

    The thing is, I know why I am haste stacked, it is not because this pseudo-smoothening reasoning that 99% of paladins are. It is simply because it is the secondary stat with the highest dps. Mastery is better than haste for pure tanking, there is just no good arguements against it. However that said, haste is still the best stat in 10 mans because tanking is not the main concern. As long as tanking is easy and you can survive haste stacked, then yes, haste will win out over mastery due to the dps which is why I use haste.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Nope, strictly 10-man. And I didn't like the Prot set bonuses that much either, even though the 2p did prove useful one time or another.
    I am much sooner than later not finding myself usg AD even remotely close to every 3 minutes. Since it is the oh shit cooldown atm.
    I would go for the ret piece probably, but it is your own choice
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-02-11 at 11:13 PM.

  15. #1115
    Kind of interesting how others view AD. I almost always, with the occasional exception of using it to exploit certain mechanics, used AD for the damage reduction, and thought of the one time death prevention was a neat perk.

    One thing that, for me, throws a wrench into the decisions of what facets of tanking are important is the way friends play their healers. Very casually (though all of us in the group are rather casual, of course), goofing off during combat, every once in a while not even paying attention, and nearly always healing reactively, as opposed to having a cast started ahead of time, sometimes even waiting for significant damage to even start a cast. And this even during first attempts on heroic bosses. So smoothening became rather important (mechanically timed spikes for specific fights were fine, since the usage of cooldowns is often predetermined anyway, so people for the most part knew when to use them), because a heal could be somewhat of a long time in coming, especially during times when they'd want to be paying attention to other members in the raid.
    Last edited by Elathi; 2013-02-12 at 06:06 AM.

  16. #1116
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    If you refer the WoL graphs.
    The graphs from my damage taken is entire fights from start to end. So the timespan is between 6 and 10 minutes.
    Also I do not believe WoL is that sensitive that your DTPS will go up and down in between SotRs
    Thank you for giving the timespan, that was the most important information missing for me. There are graphs out there that produce graphs that would look exactly like this for much shorter time spans. It could have been the last 20s before dieing or something like that.

    Also, cooldowns are used in the peaks, not the floors of the graphs. Without proper cd usage those spikes would be even higher.
    We wouldn't know, could be the other way around, not with the time span given though.
    But yeah, looking at those logs I can tell exactly what every single spike is (and it is all some predictable boss ability)

    Just look at your own logs and check damage taken.

    Haste build will never have a smoother damage in-take on a short burst spike than mastery. Unless it is 100% magic damage ofc, in which case, stamina would be better either way.

    I am haste stacked not mastery stacked. Since the damage in-take is not a concern either way, can be handled with own cooldowns. DPS is the only issue for 10 man tanks really.
    Though, if bosses did say 50-100% more damage than currently, then I would probably be mastery stacked since it is better for survival.
    It would actually depend on the damage. If the spikes would be higher, then yes, probably. If the base damage was higher and the spikes the same you would prefer haste over mastery even more. (Faster bosskills and more selfhealing.)

    The thing is, I know why I am haste stacked, it is not because this pseudo-smoothening reasoning that 99% of paladins are. It is simply because it is the secondary stat with the highest dps. Mastery is better than haste for pure tanking, there is just no good arguements against it. However that said, haste is still the best stat in 10 mans because tanking is not the main concern. As long as tanking is easy and you can survive haste stacked, then yes, haste will win out over mastery due to the dps which is why I use haste.
    A Stamina and haste build would also win hands down in any fight with very high magic damage (because of higher self healing.)

    Yes, I realise that the self healing argument amounts to the same as the dps one, its just that is is in fact part of the pure tanking job - which is reducing the efford needed to recover from targeted damage abilies of the encounter. (Wiping, running back, and retrying the encounter is much wasted efford )

  17. #1117
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Yes, I realise that the self healing argument amounts to the same as the dps one, its just that is is in fact part of the pure tanking job - which is reducing the efford needed to recover from targeted damage abilies of the encounter. (Wiping, running back, and retrying the encounter is much wasted efford )
    The problem with counting self healing in the same umbrella as mitigation, specially in the form of WoG, is that if healers see you missing 60% health they'll fill that 60% health, no matter if you heal yourself for 20%, it takes a lot of training to work with tanks who have large self healing (ie DKs) so if you're basing it on one fight it gains srs devaluation

  18. #1118
    I'm currently haste stacked (8k haste and 650k life raid buffed) running 25 mans with little issue (and that is why I am haste stacking). However, as soon as we hit Grand Empress heroic or Terrace heroic, I'm switching my gems to stamina. This will put me well above 700K (I estimate around 720k) life raid-buffed while keeping 5500-6000 haste rating, so I'll still have the nice, quick rotation and the hit and expertise caps, however my survivability to spikes should increase due to the higher buffer.

  19. #1119
    Would it not be easier to just play with trinkets at that point, rather than re-gemming? It's a far cheaper, less permanent change.

    I've been toying with trinkets on HC Empress, but since we're still adjusting healer comp/total, it's a bit anecdotal. Usually I run Liquid Courage and Lei Shen's for most encounters, but I've been swapping in Jade Warlord over Lei Shen's for that. Losing 1200 haste for 1750 stam and another mastery proc on-demand. Still keeping ~20% haste, and far easier to change on the fly.

    FWIW, with my "normal" setup, I hover around 700k+ anyhow, so YMMV. Just wanted to toss that out there if it's an option for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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    20k and counting...

  20. #1120
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Would it not be easier to just play with trinkets at that point, rather than re-gemming? It's a far cheaper, less permanent change.

    I've been toying with trinkets on HC Empress, but since we're still adjusting healer comp/total, it's a bit anecdotal. Usually I run Liquid Courage and Lei Shen's for most encounters, but I've been swapping in Jade Warlord over Lei Shen's for that. Losing 1200 haste for 1750 stam and another mastery proc on-demand. Still keeping ~20% haste, and far easier to change on the fly.

    FWIW, with my "normal" setup, I hover around 700k+ anyhow, so YMMV. Just wanted to toss that out there if it's an option for you.
    Depends how you class cheaper, if hes got double upgraded haste stacker trinkets then swapping to stam ones will be a huge change, where as changing gems could be quite cheap, maybe 1k gold per switch

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