1. #1161
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    You're still valuing Dragonling over all current trinkets?

    I subbed out of that pretty early on in the tier, and never looked back. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on why (not trying to be inflammatory, I just don't see how it can compare).
    Some people look at it as it's +1800 stats you don't need in other spots. Essentially giving you a chunk of haste.

  2. #1162
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    You're still valuing Dragonling over all current trinkets?

    I subbed out of that pretty early on in the tier, and never looked back. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on why (not trying to be inflammatory, I just don't see how it can compare).

    Armory is in the sig, though at this time I'm in ret gear. Currently using 2/2 Lei Shen's (489) and Liquid Courage for most content, and sitting at 7.7 hit and 15.0 expertise with ~19% haste IIRC. Given my gearset, I'm reforged out of hit everywhere possible (unless it's detrimental to do so, i.e. tier gloves I went Dodge -> exp and left hit alone) and still over cap a bit. I've got some haste/hit in blue sockets for bonuses, but by and large it's all forged out. Using double-stam on certain fights (Lei Shi, sometimes HC Empress), and on more farm stuff I swap in Vortex or Dragon's Blood.

    I guess I just don't see what 600 Haste, X, and Y would give me that I couldn't get from other, better options. I could put in Haste, Mastery, and Exp, and maybe swap some red gems from Exp/Haste to Str/Haste? But at that point, I could just use Darkmist Vortex if I was after more DPS/threat/parry. I could also just as easily put in the Vial of Dragon's Blood (502, reforged for haste gives ~500ish) if I was after Mastery, no?

    I get that not everyone has these options, and I'm certainly not trying to brag "hurr durr look at mah trinketz"; I'm just trying to qualify your assertion that GID remains a contender for top trinket this tier.

    Current options (ranked in no particular order):
    Lei Shens - Haste passive, str proc
    Darkmist vortex - Str passive, haste proc
    Jade Warlord/Liquid Courage - Stam passive, Mastery on-use
    5.1 Rep tank - Dodge Passive, mastery on-use (I think)
    Vial of Dragon's Blood - Mastery passive, dodge proc
    Stuff of Nightmares - Mastery passive, dodge proc
    Ghost Iron Dragon - 600x3 of unique secondary stats

    At any rate, the sheer number of options provided from the new trinkets looks amazing. Sad that there are 20+ item loot tables, esp as a 10-man raider now, but one can hope for the best!
    Presuming that you are not engineer ofc.

    Assuming that you are geared appropriately (i.e. not full prot set), you should not have hit and exp caps passively. The prot set have a lot of hit especially so if you reach hit cap passively GID gets ranked lower. The ret gear has more haste and mastery though and less hit and expertise, this means that you can safely put in 600 hit and 600 expertise without overcapping. And 600 mastery / haste whichever you prefer.
    By extension in gemming and reforging, this means that the GID gives 1800 mastery / haste since you have to reforge / gem less hit / expertise.

    This is all presuming that your gear is not hit capped passively ofc.
    Like I see in your armory, you got a lot of prot gear which is unfortunate. If you had more optimal gear it would increase the value of the dragonling a lot.

    So GID is basically 1800 mastery / 1800 haste, 1200mastery 600 haste / 1200 haste 600 mastery if you are in prot gear mostly.

    Lets compare that to, I don't know, vial of dragonsblood heroic, that I see soooooo many tanks use.

    1218 mastery, 3653 dodge proc. Now, you know my feeling about avoidance in general I presume. Now, having a PROC dodge, words cannot extend how terribly useless that is. It is not even on use, it's a proc.

    Lets compare then GID vs Heroic VoD.

    1800 mastery vs 1218 mastery I do believe that 1800 mastery is more than 1218 mastery, but I could be wrong. Ofc that can be 1800 haste if you are haste stacked.

    To mention the proc of VoD is like mentioning the proc on GID, as the ghost iron dragonling (the little flying guy, not the trinket) is just as useful as the dodge proc.

    Lei-Shens Final Order is the tricky one.

    1800 haste vs 1218 haste + 3653 strength proc. I rate these about equal, however as a tank, I always prefered on use effects > passive stats > procs. Making me almost prefer GID in most situations.

    Naturally GID can not compare to stamina trinkets as they are not the same category. But talking purely about secondary stat trinkets GID is BiS or second BiS after Lei Shen.

    As you said, current options:

    Lei Shens - Haste passive, str proc
    Darkmist vortex - Str passive, haste proc
    Jade Warlord/Liquid Courage - Stam passive, Mastery on-use
    5.1 Rep tank - Dodge Passive, mastery on-use (I think)
    Vial of Dragon's Blood - Mastery passive, dodge proc
    Stuff of Nightmares - Mastery passive, dodge proc
    Ghost Iron Dragon - 600x3 of unique secondary stats

    You forgot the battlemaster trinket with mastery + on use health, it is actually extremely good (situationally)

    Stuff of Nightmares, not an option.
    Vial of Dragon's blood, not an option.
    Darkmist good for purely dps. Situational.
    5.1 rep trinket, not an option.

    Stamina trinkets, useful if you are going for stamina, but really another category, can't compare directly with the other trinkets.

    So the only two pure tank trinkets left is Lei-Shen, and GID. Which I simply prefer GID as it is easier to swap out Lei-Shen for another trinket than GID. ( Drawback of having hit + exp on a trinket ).
    Stamina trinkets, darkmist and battlemaster being situational.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-02-14 at 07:37 PM.

  3. #1163
    I am an engineer, but don't see what that has to do with trinket rankings (unless you mean the helm with cogwheels cancelling out using them in the GID).

    Also not sure where/how you're seeing that I've got a lot of prot gear, as I'm in ret set atm. That said, my prot set is 2pc tier (chest/gloves) with rest as heroic offpieces, which does put me square in the camp of hit/exp capped from gear alone. I'm not sure if that renders the rest of your reply as non-applicable to me or not.

    At any rate, I'm certainly not lobbying for anyone to use an avoidance proc trinket, especially not for the proc iteslf. The ICD on VDB isn't terrible, but the ICD on SoN is nearly 2 mins; both are nothing more than a stat (mastery) bank. Lei Shen's proc I rate less poorly, as STR proc is never "wasted" per se, assuming you have uptime on the target. Even if you're offtanking at that point, it's still a DPS contribution. But, again, the main point of that is as a stat bank.

    If you're not very well (read: heroic) geared, then chances are that you will be able to use the stats on GID and in that case, yes, 1800 of a stat is > 1200ish (+/- based on your trinket levels and upgrades, etc). However, that also assumes that you can compensate your reforging to accomodate, an argument that holds true for everyone, and sadly is not always possible. It's precisely that reason that I (and, from your post, you as well) try to get as close as possible without relying on a trinket to hit/exp cap. Relying on GID for accuracy stats means that you're locked to it. Want to use 2x Stam? Gonna be short on accuracy. Want to use 2 strong DPS trinkets (Lei Shen, DMV)? Gonna be short on accuracy.

    I could put on a GID, and throw in Haste, Mastery and Hit/Exp, reforge some thing(s) to move that 600 hit/exp into something else (provided that haste is available on that slot, which isn't always the case) and maybe pick up ~300-600 haste when it's all said and done. However, I'm now "stuck" with that trinket, severely limiting my options.

    That's why I've run (and will continue to run, for this tier at least) Lei Shen's and the Stam/Mastery-on-use setup. Flexibility. I don't NEED the stam on 90% of the stuff I do, and can and do swap in DMV freely if desired for DPS/threat/ranking. Or, I can go 2x stam and still be capped on hit/exp. Though, personally, I find that using the mastery buff during HA or other short-term CDs make physical damage mitigation incredible, which is great on encounters where it matters. Side benefit of that being that I can stand outside for a F+V for extra Vengeance, or save a larger CD for later.

    Again, not saying that the GID is not useful, especially at lower gear/accuracy levels. I just don't know that I'd put a "BiS" tag on it. Honorable mention, certainly...but not a top contender.
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  4. #1164
    Deleted
    Don't see how the trinket providing by far the most secondary stats in this tier is not a top contender.

    The only drawback is that you feel "locked" with it. Mastery uses are awesome btw. I just haven't yet found them really. needed as the tank damage in 10's are so low.

    Though if you have the opinion that the main purpose of the trinkets are the stat banks, then I do not see why not use GID?
    Ofc in your case you are engineer so you cant use optimal cogs. So not worth it then, but otherwise.

    Or, I can't even remember how engineer works anymore. Do you always have cogs or are that only in the crafted helmet?
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-02-14 at 08:20 PM.

  5. #1165
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Or, I can't even remember how engineer works anymore. Do you always have cogs or are that only in the crafted helmet?
    Crafted helm only

  6. #1166
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Crafted helm only
    Well in that case, GID is as useful for engineers aswell then after they got rid of the crafted helm.

  7. #1167
    I am an engineer, but do not use the helmet (ilvl 476 with no secondary stats aside from the 600 cogs and 180 str meta bonus). All cogs would be available, but the options would be 600 haste, 600 mastery, 600 of some accuracy stat.

    The "problem" I run into is that I've got my accuracy caps from gear, so if I was after a stat-bank trinket, GID would not be as beneficial to me without significant reforging/regemming, which could/would likely end up seeing my trade down on haste (due to my gear-set and current reforges). If I could throw in 600haste x3, then sure, I could and would get beneficial use from the GID. However, with the gear that I have, it'd be a net loss of "good" stats as I'd have to reforge items unfavorably. Example: tier gloves are currently ~400 hit and ~800 dodge -> haste; I would have to put the dodge back on and reforge out of hit to make the accuracy stats on GID useful, but then I'd only get 160 haste from the hit, instead of the 320 haste from the dodge.

    Trinkets are not (or should not be) stat banks; I stated that trinkets like Stuff of Nightmares are essentially stat banks, given that their chance proc of dodge is far from useful to me/us, and on a very long cooldown. Ergo, the trinket is essentially a lump sum of mastery with a proc that has little-to-no bearing on its use.

    An example of a good trinket that is more than merely a stat bank would be Lei Shen's: lump sum of a desired stat, with a helpful (albeit debatably situational) secondary use/effect/proc. Categorically, the stam trinkets fall into this same group of "good" or "useful" by my definition, though YMMV based on your personal valuation of stamina.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  8. #1168
    Deleted
    Yeah, in most experiences when I have helped protection paladins with their gear, they have always been able to reforge / regem their gear to fit 600 hit and 600 expertise in a good way. I think I saw your armory in prot gear yesterday and saw that you had a lot of hit on your gear and expertise.

    You could probably still fit a mastery, haste, expertise cogs into a GID and get some of that reforged / regemmed expertise into haste/mastery. Lei-Shens proc could almost be considered a stat bank, since it does not really provide any survivability, it is just a dps increase (even though uneven). I often consider most unreliable procs as stat banks.

    And as I said before, hard to compare stamina trinkets to other trinkets. I have not yet found a fight where I want to have stamina trinkets so I have always used two stat trinkets. To which purpose Lei-Shen and GID is by far the two best choices.

    That Lei-Shen and GID are the two best secondary stat trinkets is just beyond questioning. Tho which is better is debatable. If your gear allows for reforging hit and exp, it is basically 600 haste vs the strength proc. If it doesn't, then Lei'Shen usually pulls ahead.

  9. #1169
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Teks View Post
    Are you seriously saying crit will be a better stat than a dodge in 5.2? With the GC change?
    Also, unless Blizzard decides to fix it it's possible to dodge some boss debuff abilites in the next tier.
    I get that dodge isn't a good stat, but crit is right there with it at the bottom for all intents and purposes.
    I think this comes down to what content you're doing (again). In a 10 man scenario the tanks just aren't in any real danger of dying, hence tbh crit would benefit the raid more, particularly where tank dps matters. 25 man, I dunno not tried, but I'm guessing survivability is more of an issue on progression fights?.

    Just from my experience, tank deaths are a non issue in 10 man. Dps requirements are.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 11:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yeah, in most experiences when I have helped protection paladins with their gear, they have always been able to reforge / regem their gear to fit 600 hit and 600 expertise in a good way. I think I saw your armory in prot gear yesterday and saw that you had a lot of hit on your gear and expertise.

    KYou could probably still fit a mastery, haste, expertise cogs into a GID and get some of that reforged / regemmed expertise into haste/mastery. Lei-Shens proc could almost be considered a stat bank, since it does not really provide any survivability, it is just a dps increase (even though uneven). I often consider most unreliable procs as stat banks.

    And as I said before, hard to compare stamina trinkets to other trinkets. I have not yet found a fight where I want to have stamina trinkets so I have always used two stat trinkets. To which purpose Lei-Shen and GID is by far the two best choices.

    That Lei-Shen and GID are the two best secondary stat trinkets is just beyond questioning. Tho which is better is debatable. If your gear allows for reforging hit and exp, it is basically 600 haste vs the strength proc. If it doesn't, then Lei'Shen usually pulls ahead.
    ive said it before, but i think the 2 on use trash drops trinkets from msv cover pretty much any situation you could ask for:
    Stam + on use mastery
    Strength + on use haste

    Both mini cds on a 1 min cd. Awesomeness.

  10. #1170
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    I think this comes down to what content you're doing (again). In a 10 man scenario the tanks just aren't in any real danger of dying, hence tbh crit would benefit the raid more, particularly where tank dps matters. 25 man, I dunno not tried, but I'm guessing survivability is more of an issue on progression fights?.

    Just from my experience, tank deaths are a non issue in 10 man. Dps requirements are.
    Dodge and Parry doesnt add any survivability for a 25 man tank either.


    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    ive said it before, but i think the 2 on use trash drops trinkets from msv cover pretty much any situation you could ask for:
    Stam + on use mastery
    Strength + on use haste

    Both mini cds on a 1 min cd. Awesomeness.
    Yeah, on use cds are great, especially in heroic 25.

    Paladins how so insane amount of cds though, so often in 10 man your own CDs are enough, making trinket a matter of pure throughput on most fights.
    So the mini cds are more situational. Not to mention that stamina trinkets are pretty much wasted stats in 10's atm except for those top heroic fights, sha of fear hc, empress hc, etc.

    Other wise those two trash drops are very very nice.

    Though in 10 I still prefer to raw throughput of Lei'Shen and GID as standard and swapping in other trinkets (for me battlemaster/valor as trash doesnt drop me trinkets) when needed. That is tanking 10 ofc.

    Mastery on use is a lot better than haste on use though. The haste on use is not mindboggling really.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-02-15 at 12:01 PM.

  11. #1171
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Dodge and Parry doesnt add any survivability for a 25 man tank either.




    Yeah, on use cds are great, especially in heroic 25.

    Paladins how so insane amount of cds though, so often in 10 man your own CDs are enough, making trinket a matter of pure throughput on most fights.
    So the mini cds are more situational. Not to mention that stamina trinkets are pretty much wasted stats in 10's atm except for those top heroic fights, sha of fear hc, empress hc, etc.

    Other wise those two trash drops are very very nice.

    Though in 10 I still prefer to raw throughput of Lei'Shen and GID as standard and swapping in other trinkets (for me battlemaster/valor as trash doesnt drop me trinkets) when needed. That is tanking 10 ofc.

    Mastery on use is a lot better than haste on use though. The haste on use is not mindboggling really.
    You can never have too many cds!

    On tank swap fights they really shine as you have no real wasted downtime on them, if you ken wat I men. The haste buff is quite nice for when I reapply ss at high vengeance (together with me haste cuppa coffee ).

  12. #1172
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    You can never have too many cds!

    On tank swap fights they really shine as you have no real wasted downtime on them, if you ken wat I men. The haste buff is quite nice for when I reapply ss at high vengeance (together with me haste cuppa coffee ).
    Yeah, I do not reach a new haste breakpoint for SS even with the haste use (last time I checked atleast)

    And while you can never have enough CDs, you can have so many CDs that the value of another cooldown becomes lower than the value of static stats.

    It is kinda the same argument with spirit and healers. Ofc you can never have enough spirit as a healer, but if you never oom, you end every fight with a lot of mana, and people are not dieng by lack of heals ofc, then that spirit would be better spent in other stats that provide more throughput. Same goes for tank cds. Better spending those points into other stuff providing you do not need those extra cds. Which is why I think use trinkets are more situational.

    Do you need those extra cds? Will passive stats benefit you more? I used the extra cds for Emperors, Empress and Sha so far.

  13. #1173
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yeah, I do not reach a new haste breakpoint for SS even with the haste use (last time I checked atleast)

    And while you can never have enough CDs, you can have so many CDs that the value of another cooldown becomes lower than the value of static stats.

    It is kinda the same argument with spirit and healers. Ofc you can never have enough spirit as a healer, but if you never oom, you end every fight with a lot of mana, and people are not dieng by lack of heals ofc, then that spirit would be better spent in other stats that provide more throughput. Same goes for tank cds. Better spending those points into other stuff providing you do not need those extra cds. Which is why I think use trinkets are more situational.

    Do you need those extra cds? Will passive stats benefit you more? I used the extra cds for Emperors, Empress and Sha so far.
    tbh i think you can put that argument on it's head - do you really need those passive stats, or would it not be better to have "extra oomph" for those scary moments?

    Not sure what you mean by the haste break point either re. the on use..... quicker SS refreshes are quicker.
    Last edited by mmocf6305105ff; 2013-02-15 at 03:18 PM.

  14. #1174
    Deleted
    extra tik...10%/ 20%/ 30%/ 50%(i can be wrong with numbers, don't remember exactly)

  15. #1175
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    tbh i think you can put that argument on it's head - do you really need those passive stats, or would it not be better to have "extra oomph" for those scary moments?
    That is the same thing I said, that is not putting it on it's head, you just changed the words.

    If you need an extra cd, ofc the cd is better. If the boss fight does not have a scary moment (or does not have a scary moment that you already cover with other CDs), then throughput is better. It is not really more complicated than that.

    Also, a haste/mastery cd is not really an "OH SHIT" cd, it is a cd you use preemptively.

    Battlemaster trinket can be an oh shit cd.

  16. #1176
    Any numbers yet from the PTR on the proc chance of GC from there respective triggers?

  17. #1177
    Deleted
    Retribution pvp 4p got interesting for prot again this tier. Lets wait for final numbers on bonus and stats before jumping to conclusions though.

  18. #1178
    The Insane Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tax View Post
    Any numbers yet from the PTR on the proc chance of GC from there respective triggers?
    It's a 12% chance for each.

  19. #1179
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivin View Post
    It's a 12% chance for each.
    Does it have an ICD?

  20. #1180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Does it have an ICD?
    I don't think it has one now, does it? That shouldn't have changed.

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