[MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

[Deleted]

Good evening fellow Prot friends, im just curious about Haste/Exp gearing, i played it for a while but changed bk to pure Mastery (ofc hit-cap) etc, but now when i recived some precious items, id like to go back to Haste/Exp.

I wonder now (I play with Lei-Shen trinket (normal)) and Heroic Elegon Trinket! I also has the neck from first boss HC MSV. Which one would you guys preffer to buy first? I got 1995 Valor and Im not sure if i should buy the Brutal Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault (1467 Expertise and a chance of 8800 Strenght) or the Mastery one with 16k dodge on use! or the neck with Haste/Mastery on to replace my 502 neck

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Amina/advanced

There is my armory, im not sure if i can link it or not, but we'll see. I haven't fixed my GEAR yet with the reforging and regemming yet bk to Expertise/Haste, but i just wanted to know first if i should buy the Expertise or Mastery trinket, or the neck which gives me Haste/Mastery, thoughts? Would love an response.

Thanks in advance // Lúmina @ Ragnaros EU (H)

Hey, go ahead and buy the neck first and buy a cheap ghost iron dragonling on the AH and put some hit, expertise and haste cogwheels in there to switch out the Vial with and kill two birds with one stone. That would be my suggestion!

[Deleted]

Buy the neck, seems pretty bis to me.

[Xs]

Hey, go ahead and buy the neck first and buy a cheap ghost iron dragonling on the AH and put some hit, expertise and haste cogwheels in there to switch out the Vial with and kill two birds with one stone. That would be my suggestion!

Firefly will be proud

[Deleted]

Firefly will be proud

Thats... my... son... <sniff>

[Deleted]

Thats... my... son... <sniff>

soniamproud.jpg

Anyways, i stumbled upon Theck's MATLAB thread on maintankadin today, and was completely taken by suprise when i saw it's been updated for 5.2.
Something anyone could've guessed, that i was happy i could verify there was the, maybe not so intended, buff to holy avenger when ShoTR was put on sanctity of battle. It now yields the highest DPS out of the talents.

His conclusion is pretty much that with both HA and DiPurp scaling so well with haste SA might have lost a lot of it's luster. The 20% healing taken increase is nice, but very niche. Situations where you're out of reach of a melee target and taking heavy magical damage for example is where it could be situationally awesome, spamming J with incredible self-healing capability, but let's be real; how many situations like that are there?

This is a shame, because having 3/3 talents situationally on top is more fun than 2/3.
Other than that there is a lot of info, even if not news to everyone, that can be nice to read through. Maybe just to confirm what you already knew.
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...718673#p718673

[djtravitrav]

I stopped taking sanctified wrath after they nerfed the ret 4pc that lowered the cd on avenging wrath. Using holy avenger now.

Yes I was tanking with ret 4pc in the previous tier, because the combo was amazing.

[Deleted]

When I get time around, I will try to make a talent guide for each T15 encounter with logical reasoning behind it.

What I can tell you though is that SW is still a lot stronger defensively on most fights compared to HA.

To make it short, most damage bursts where you need to use a SW or HA you can predict.
Presuming you predict it you should have saved up holy power for it.
At 0% haste you will have 100% SotR uptime with SW presuming 5 HoPo at start for 18 seconds.
At 50% haste you will have it for 28 seconds.

Regular haste levels that is like 20~+ seconds, if you only had like 3 HoPo to start with lets say 20 seconds.

Most damage bursts that you need to use SW/HA is shorter than 20 seconds.

So even though HA lasts longer, the last like 20-30 seconds of HA falls into TDR, which is often useless on a majority of the fights, its only those initial 5-15 seconds that is interseting depending on how the fight is designed. Most fights the damage burst period is shortar than 15 seconds.

100% sotr uptime + 20% increased healing taken for 15 seconds
100% sotr uptime for 15 seconds

The first one is naturally better.



For me, HA is the niche ability.

Benefits of HA.

1. Extremely long damage burst fights. ( adds on Empress P2 for example )
2. Fights where you do not really need either SW or HA, though really horrible point. Since if you do not need either HA or SW, well, then it does not really matter.
3. Fights designed better for the HA 2 min CD. Some fights are naturally designed where you need a damage reduction every 2.5 minutes or something whcih makes HA better. A rare niche.
4. Quick reaction to something unpredictable. For some reason you need a cd NOW, because, well, some add went enrage or a healer died or whatever. If you are not prepared for the damage spike, HA is better for the first few seconds, making it a better oh shit button. Though I feel like Lay on Hands and ardent defender, not to mention bubble and shit is enough oh shit that we do not really need HA as oh shit.


SW was undeniable stronger in almost every aspect when we had 95s, and later 65s CD reduction, but we do not have that anymore.

Will try to make a more extensive 'debate article' over all talents, their uses and more in-depth reasoning later.

[Deleted]

I understand your reasoning, but i also feel that in the situations where the prolonged ShoTR uptime falls into TDR, 20% additional healing isn't necessarily more attractive for the same reasons we choose sacred shield over eternal flame. Absorbing (or in this case mitigating) damage, instead of outhealing it, either by yourself or through your healers, is always better no matter the damage intake. This of course assumes the damage is physical, where in a scenario where it's not, the effect from HA (after the predictable burst that you might've used it for) can be completely useless while the extra healing that might still be active from SW is much more useful. And also, i feel that damage intake on a lot of different fights can be of more volatile nature than you describe, but that's a discussion for whenever you, or me or someone else, want to make a tidy list of different encounters and respective recommended talent choices.

Why i feel this is worth bringing up again is more or less because of the scaling of the two other abilities that's not as apparent with SW, especially when it comes to DPS, so at some point it will lag behind naturally because of this when the defensive benefits are either a) not overwhelmingly better or b) perhaps situational. I'm mostly thinking about DiPurp and at what point it can almost be reliable. It can never be 100% reliable, but that can likely always be covered by a regular cooldown..

[Deleted]

The problem is that much like the T1 speed talents, we need to talk about the effective uptime. While yes, LAotL provides the greatest average move speed increase for a haste tank.

Lets say you have a fight where you can stand still for 99% of the fight, say you only have to move 3 times during a fight, each time the movement only takes 4 seconds and it is 2 minutes apart. In this case SoL would have 100% effective uptime since you would have it up always when you actually need to move.

It is kind off the same deal here. We do not use cooldowns for TDR, we use them for 90% for anticipated damage intake and sometimes for oh shit situations, and sometimes ofc just to use them since we got nothing else to use them on.

Often with the Tier 5 talents, its only the first few seconds that matters. After that the damage stabilises.
Sotr + 20% healing taken is better than just Sotr, there is just no arguement against that.

HA is just more situational due to more fights are designed in a favorable way to SW. That said, now that SW lost a lot in dps purpose losing the T14 4p, SW is only better for dps if you are not hard capped in expertise, and some other niches involving the T6 talents.

Though I rarely find that the small difference in dps is worth sacrificing the big survival increase from SW.

There is also another niche that I realised for SW today.
If you are predicting a long stun, you can pop SW before the stun, and have 20% healing increase during that stun when you can use no other spells or defensive cds.
Though that is more of an oddball but a good thing to notice.


Though to go back and repeat myself since I often lose my train of thoughts in posts (lol).

You said

" but i also feel that in the situations where the prolonged ShoTR uptime falls into TDR, 20% additional healing isn't necessarily more attractive"

That was kind off my point exactly. In almost every situation, after a short duration, both SW and HA falls into the TDR category, the 20% increased healing is not to bad since the damage in take is low here. So, SW and HA becomes equally attractive (read as: unattractive) after a while, making that really irrelevant, though before the point, SW is undeniably stronger.

[Deleted]

Interesting. Having cleared all 12 normal bosses, i think i will revisit our logs and videos and make more sense of their respective efficency in prep for heroic release. It was something i've been meaning to do anyway because of clemency's and HoPur's ridiculously good situational use on more than a few fights. This is obviously worth doing for all tiers, excluding 2&3, but i do find it a bit trickier for tier 5 specifically, so i appreciate you elaborating on it a bit (again).

[Deleted]

Interesting. Having cleared all 12 normal bosses, i think i will revisit our logs and videos and make more sense of their respective efficency in prep for heroic release. It was something i've been meaning to do anyway because of clemency's and HoPur's ridiculously good situational use on more than a few fights. This is obviously worth doing for all tiers, excluding 2&3, but i do find it a bit trickier for tier 5 specifically, so i appreciate you elaborating on it a bit (again).

I think the problem with discussing T5 talents, or a lot of paladin stuff actually, is people are to close minded. They can't take a step back from what they know or think, and think for themselves for a while and actually look what is best.

Strictly talking about T5 talents, the effect of HA is much more noticeable, which makes people not even consider SW. SW works in a more subtle way so people do not really see the effect of it instantly.

I am not as familiar with the this tiers bosses as I would like to be so I have a hard time commenting yet over which talents is best in this tier in terms of all talents, and glyphs for that matter. I won't be able to raid seriously for about 7 weeks now, so will just play sometimes in pugs and stand-in so will try to stay in the loop checking logs etc. But nothing beats first hand experience. Only had time to do a few bosses so far. With a few blanks.

I really wish I could gear up a bit though since I slacked so hard with drops last tier and pretty much passed loot to everyone in the raid haha, still sitting on some intellect/agility pieces and not even 500 ilvl. Hard to be competitive on WoL when you are pretty much 15 ilvls behind other people, a lot harder to soak shit for vengeance and stuff!

[Deleted]

HA is effective in that it can be used as a big defensive cooldown for tough damage intake phases. I remember, for instance, in Meljarak HC while solotaking I'd run HA then GoAK once it's down and then DP + Trinket and that would be exactly enough to make sure I had some form of damage reduction permanently until the first group of adds died.

[Promdates]

Are you just ignoring Divine Purpose for a reason?

[Xs]

Are you just ignoring Divine Purpose for a reason?

Its the most difficult to sim, and for tanks the main use of that tier right now is for a reliable cooldown to add to the arsenal, DP is more TDR or luck

Also to chime into the discussion with a more healer oriented side, a lot of people's arguments seem to be that the 20% healing increase goes to waste a lot, but I know that in a 10 man environment, if your Paladin tank is taking ~50% reduced damage and 20% increased healing, thats more than enough to heal in a very efficient way compared to just 50% for HA's extended buff duration, may well still have to weave in some higher throughput heals causing more mana to be expended. This is one of the things I think Firefly is trying to put across, and its a very valid reason to choose one talent over the other, since thats what the mitigation vs TDR argument boils down to ultimately.

[britishbubba]

Its the most difficult to sim, and for tanks the main use of that tier right now is for a reliable cooldown to add to the arsenal, DP is more TDR or luck

Also to chime into the discussion with a more healer oriented side, a lot of people's arguments seem to be that the 20% healing increase goes to waste a lot, but I know that in a 10 man environment, if your Paladin tank is taking ~50% reduced damage and 20% increased healing, thats more than enough to heal in a very efficient way compared to just 50% for HA's extended buff duration, may well still have to weave in some higher throughput heals causing more mana to be expended. This is one of the things I think Firefly is trying to put across, and its a very valid reason to choose one talent over the other, since thats what the mitigation vs TDR argument boils down to ultimately.

A lot of my reasoning behind not using SW on fights is because in 25M, outside of the predictable increase in damage intake (Snapping Bite on Tortos for example) the 20% increase in healing more or less goes to waste since the damage intake is low enough that the assortment of HoTs and splash heals mixed in with my SS and SoI will more or less keep me topped off (the healing from BoL from our holy paladin is stupid due to EF blanketing).

The fights that I've done so far (working on Durumu currently) all seem to be structured in a way that I tank for 1 minute, then don't tank for a minute, and I feel that HA plays very well with this. It'll come off CD right as I'm about to swap back to tanking, giving myself time to get some vengeance for a stronger SS, while taking less damage due to the constant uptime on SoTR.

I don't have any math or really solid theorycrafting on it, and I don't completely disregard SW (absolutly loved it for P1 Sha when on the platforms, all the LAoTL uptime) but the increase in dps from HA just seems to outweigh the healing increase from SW in more scenarios in 25M raiding imo. I can certinaly see SW being stronger in a 10M where you aren't guaranteed to be having as many HoTs and splash heals as you get a in 25M.

I am interested in Divine purpose though. On a fight like tortos where there's high dmg intake frequently (every 8 seconds) HA and SW don't really offer much with their higher burst uptime since you only need SoTR every 8 seconds. I wonder in a situation like this, would DP be a dps increase in the long run over HA and SW? I guess it would likely have to do with if you lined HA/SW up with lust. Guess I have something to tinker with next week.

[Deleted]

Are you just ignoring Divine Purpose for a reason?

Just that the current goto spell has been HA so naturally more discussion about it.
SW and HA is also a lot more comparable than SW/HA vs DP Kind off like saying SW/HA is Haste/Mastery and DP is Stamina, hard to compare.

Current discussion about the talents have also been as a defensive cooldown. Divine Purpose is not predictable and does not provide any additional protection for the most part.
I have not played around much with DP as I like to have that extra defensive CD. Though DP also have its uses.
DP is competetive in fights that.

1. Like Will of the Emperor HC, constant dangerous tank damage phases. While SW would do the greatest job for reducing damage in one round of attacks, DP is up for every hit phase making it a more even talent there.

2. Fights that do not require defensive cooldowns. Like Sha of Fear or similar. Though in those situations it just turns into a matter of how the fight is designed and your personal prefference.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

2. Fights that do not require defensive cooldowns. Like Sha of Fear or similar.

I actually thought that Holy Avenger was better on Sha of Fear, because its duration is about the same length as the time you are tanking him, making Thrash completely irrelevant.

[Deleted]

Its the most difficult to sim, and for tanks the main use of that tier right now is for a reliable cooldown to add to the arsenal, DP is more TDR or luck

Also to chime into the discussion with a more healer oriented side, a lot of people's arguments seem to be that the 20% healing increase goes to waste a lot, but I know that in a 10 man environment, if your Paladin tank is taking ~50% reduced damage and 20% increased healing, thats more than enough to heal in a very efficient way compared to just 50% for HA's extended buff duration, may well still have to weave in some higher throughput heals causing more mana to be expended. This is one of the things I think Firefly is trying to put across, and its a very valid reason to choose one talent over the other, since thats what the mitigation vs TDR argument boils down to ultimately.

Well, also part of my point is that, when do you use these cooldowns? Yes, when you are likely to die.
You do not use these cooldowns when you take no damage and have 100% health which is why I think comparing it between SS and EF is kinda wrong.

Fair to assume that you will not be on 100% health when you are about to die making the 20% healing taken very effective.

For me, it is in a way like comparing mastery with dodge/parry though with a lit bess RNG in Dodge and Parry. Yes, dodge and parry provides more TDR than mastery, but is that really relevant? Mastery provides a bigger damage reduction when you actually needs it making it a billion times for useful.

Same goes for these talents. Often after the first 5-15 seconds of the cooldown, the cooldown is basically "wasted", or just a nice to have, making both the 20% healing taking increase and increased uptime from SW useless, and the extended duration of sotr with HA equally useless. The only interesting part is the first 5-15 seconds (on most fights). And on those 5-15 seconds, it is a simple comparison between 100% SotR uptime + 20% healing taken vs 100% SotR uptime. Nothing harder to compare really.

This is why I feel like HA is more of a niche ability. Since it provides worse protection (undeniably) on the shorter predictable bursts, which is what we use these cooldowns for mostly.

As I said earlier. Fights where HA can pull ahead SW defensively.

1. Extremely long damage burst fights. ( adds on Empress P2 for example )

2. Fights designed better for the HA 2 min CD. Some fights are naturally designed where you need a damage reduction every 2.5 minutes or something which makes HA better. A rare niche. Especially now without shorter CD on SW.

(3). Fights where you do not really need either SW or HA, though really horrible point. Since if you do not need either HA or SW, well, then it does not really matter.
So really as the point below, not really that important either. DP is very viable on a fight like this.

(4). Quick reaction to something unpredictable. For some reason you need a cd NOW, because, well, some add went enrage or a healer died or whatever. If you are not prepared for the damage spike, HA is better for the first few seconds, making it a better oh shit button. Though I feel like Lay on Hands and ardent defender, not to mention bubble and shit is enough oh shit that we do not really need HA as oh shit. So this point is more of an extra, not really that much weight in it.

SW pulls ahead on

1. Magic Damage heavy fights
2. Any fight with predictable damage in-take. Especially if you know "okay, I am gonna use my <insert t5 talent> at this point"

(3). Not that big of a deal, but any fight that you can not simply use spells during, if that is because you are stunned, out of range or whatever, HA provides 0 use if you can not attack an enemy, SW does.
(4). This is like a P.S.S.S. SW + LAotL = RUN PALA RUN!

[Deleted]

Firefly have you applied to be a new mod for Paladongs?

[Deleted]

I actually thought that Holy Avenger was better on Sha of Fear, because its duration is about the same length as the time you are tanking him, making Thrash completely irrelevant.

Ah, but that is another discussion. That is kinda the haste vs mastery discussion (disregarding the dps benefit of haste).

HA makes the fight less complicated and easier, you do not need to bother when you use your SotR.
Though does that make it better? Its like taking an escalator instead of the stairs. Its convienient but taking the stairs is probably faster and gives us that well needed excercise that we paladins need.

If you can time your SotR with the Thrashes, which is not really that hard to do, than HA loses pretty much all of its value, since you are already covering all thrashes, you can't cover more. HA will only cover more regular melee hits which are non-important.

Though if you are missing to cover a lot of thrashes, using HA do so you can just use SotR on cooldown and do not really bother with when you use SotR.
Ha just leaves more room for error.

So it is a bit the same, but more extreme than mastery vs haste. Haste pulls ahead defensively if you do not time your SotR's, having more haste = bigger % chance that you will have SotR up for those situations when you need it by accident. Whereas if you use SotR intentionally when you know you are gonna take a big hit, mastery pulls miles ahead of haste, but it requires more timing and precision to pull off, with more room for error.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 11:27 AM ----------

Firefly have you applied to be a new mod for Paladongs?

Firstly I need to apply to be a new mod for my refridgerator (Yes, I spelled that wrong).

Was hungry last night and needed something to eat. What I found that was edible.

1 Tomato
1 Beer Can (not edible but drinkable)
1 Chocolate Bar that a guy gave as a 'gift' to me and my roommates (we got 1 each) _/

Best evening meal ever!