1. #1441
    The problem is that much like the T1 speed talents, we need to talk about the effective uptime. While yes, LAotL provides the greatest average move speed increase for a haste tank.

    Lets say you have a fight where you can stand still for 99% of the fight, say you only have to move 3 times during a fight, each time the movement only takes 4 seconds and it is 2 minutes apart. In this case SoL would have 100% effective uptime since you would have it up always when you actually need to move.

    It is kind off the same deal here. We do not use cooldowns for TDR, we use them for 90% for anticipated damage intake and sometimes for oh shit situations, and sometimes ofc just to use them since we got nothing else to use them on.

    Often with the Tier 5 talents, its only the first few seconds that matters. After that the damage stabilises.
    Sotr + 20% healing taken is better than just Sotr, there is just no arguement against that.

    HA is just more situational due to more fights are designed in a favorable way to SW. That said, now that SW lost a lot in dps purpose losing the T14 4p, SW is only better for dps if you are not hard capped in expertise, and some other niches involving the T6 talents.

    Though I rarely find that the small difference in dps is worth sacrificing the big survival increase from SW.

    There is also another niche that I realised for SW today.
    If you are predicting a long stun, you can pop SW before the stun, and have 20% healing increase during that stun when you can use no other spells or defensive cds.
    Though that is more of an oddball but a good thing to notice.


    Though to go back and repeat myself since I often lose my train of thoughts in posts (lol).

    You said

    " but i also feel that in the situations where the prolonged ShoTR uptime falls into TDR, 20% additional healing isn't necessarily more attractive"

    That was kind off my point exactly. In almost every situation, after a short duration, both SW and HA falls into the TDR category, the 20% increased healing is not to bad since the damage in take is low here. So, SW and HA becomes equally attractive (read as: unattractive) after a while, making that really irrelevant, though before the point, SW is undeniably stronger.
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  2. #1442
    Interesting. Having cleared all 12 normal bosses, i think i will revisit our logs and videos and make more sense of their respective efficency in prep for heroic release. It was something i've been meaning to do anyway because of clemency's and HoPur's ridiculously good situational use on more than a few fights. This is obviously worth doing for all tiers, excluding 2&3, but i do find it a bit trickier for tier 5 specifically, so i appreciate you elaborating on it a bit (again).

  3. #1443
    Quote Originally Posted by Tossy View Post
    Interesting. Having cleared all 12 normal bosses, i think i will revisit our logs and videos and make more sense of their respective efficency in prep for heroic release. It was something i've been meaning to do anyway because of clemency's and HoPur's ridiculously good situational use on more than a few fights. This is obviously worth doing for all tiers, excluding 2&3, but i do find it a bit trickier for tier 5 specifically, so i appreciate you elaborating on it a bit (again).
    I think the problem with discussing T5 talents, or a lot of paladin stuff actually, is people are to close minded. They can't take a step back from what they know or think, and think for themselves for a while and actually look what is best.

    Strictly talking about T5 talents, the effect of HA is much more noticeable, which makes people not even consider SW. SW works in a more subtle way so people do not really see the effect of it instantly.

    I am not as familiar with the this tiers bosses as I would like to be so I have a hard time commenting yet over which talents is best in this tier in terms of all talents, and glyphs for that matter. I won't be able to raid seriously for about 7 weeks now, so will just play sometimes in pugs and stand-in so will try to stay in the loop checking logs etc. But nothing beats first hand experience. Only had time to do a few bosses so far. With a few blanks.

    I really wish I could gear up a bit though since I slacked so hard with drops last tier and pretty much passed loot to everyone in the raid haha, still sitting on some intellect/agility pieces and not even 500 ilvl. Hard to be competitive on WoL when you are pretty much 15 ilvls behind other people, a lot harder to soak shit for vengeance and stuff!
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-03-11 at 01:17 AM.
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  4. #1444
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    HA is effective in that it can be used as a big defensive cooldown for tough damage intake phases. I remember, for instance, in Meljarak HC while solotaking I'd run HA then GoAK once it's down and then DP + Trinket and that would be exactly enough to make sure I had some form of damage reduction permanently until the first group of adds died.


  5. #1445
    Are you just ignoring Divine Purpose for a reason?



  6. #1446
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    Are you just ignoring Divine Purpose for a reason?
    Its the most difficult to sim, and for tanks the main use of that tier right now is for a reliable cooldown to add to the arsenal, DP is more TDR or luck

    Also to chime into the discussion with a more healer oriented side, a lot of people's arguments seem to be that the 20% healing increase goes to waste a lot, but I know that in a 10 man environment, if your Paladin tank is taking ~50% reduced damage and 20% increased healing, thats more than enough to heal in a very efficient way compared to just 50% for HA's extended buff duration, may well still have to weave in some higher throughput heals causing more mana to be expended. This is one of the things I think Firefly is trying to put across, and its a very valid reason to choose one talent over the other, since thats what the mitigation vs TDR argument boils down to ultimately.

  7. #1447
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Its the most difficult to sim, and for tanks the main use of that tier right now is for a reliable cooldown to add to the arsenal, DP is more TDR or luck

    Also to chime into the discussion with a more healer oriented side, a lot of people's arguments seem to be that the 20% healing increase goes to waste a lot, but I know that in a 10 man environment, if your Paladin tank is taking ~50% reduced damage and 20% increased healing, thats more than enough to heal in a very efficient way compared to just 50% for HA's extended buff duration, may well still have to weave in some higher throughput heals causing more mana to be expended. This is one of the things I think Firefly is trying to put across, and its a very valid reason to choose one talent over the other, since thats what the mitigation vs TDR argument boils down to ultimately.
    A lot of my reasoning behind not using SW on fights is because in 25M, outside of the predictable increase in damage intake (Snapping Bite on Tortos for example) the 20% increase in healing more or less goes to waste since the damage intake is low enough that the assortment of HoTs and splash heals mixed in with my SS and SoI will more or less keep me topped off (the healing from BoL from our holy paladin is stupid due to EF blanketing).

    The fights that I've done so far (working on Durumu currently) all seem to be structured in a way that I tank for 1 minute, then don't tank for a minute, and I feel that HA plays very well with this. It'll come off CD right as I'm about to swap back to tanking, giving myself time to get some vengeance for a stronger SS, while taking less damage due to the constant uptime on SoTR.

    I don't have any math or really solid theorycrafting on it, and I don't completely disregard SW (absolutly loved it for P1 Sha when on the platforms, all the LAoTL uptime) but the increase in dps from HA just seems to outweigh the healing increase from SW in more scenarios in 25M raiding imo. I can certinaly see SW being stronger in a 10M where you aren't guaranteed to be having as many HoTs and splash heals as you get a in 25M.

    I am interested in Divine purpose though. On a fight like tortos where there's high dmg intake frequently (every 8 seconds) HA and SW don't really offer much with their higher burst uptime since you only need SoTR every 8 seconds. I wonder in a situation like this, would DP be a dps increase in the long run over HA and SW? I guess it would likely have to do with if you lined HA/SW up with lust. Guess I have something to tinker with next week.

  8. #1448
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    Are you just ignoring Divine Purpose for a reason?
    Just that the current goto spell has been HA so naturally more discussion about it.
    SW and HA is also a lot more comparable than SW/HA vs DP Kind off like saying SW/HA is Haste/Mastery and DP is Stamina, hard to compare.

    Current discussion about the talents have also been as a defensive cooldown. Divine Purpose is not predictable and does not provide any additional protection for the most part.
    I have not played around much with DP as I like to have that extra defensive CD. Though DP also have its uses.
    DP is competetive in fights that.

    1. Like Will of the Emperor HC, constant dangerous tank damage phases. While SW would do the greatest job for reducing damage in one round of attacks, DP is up for every hit phase making it a more even talent there.

    2. Fights that do not require defensive cooldowns. Like Sha of Fear or similar. Though in those situations it just turns into a matter of how the fight is designed and your personal prefference.
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  9. #1449
    2. Fights that do not require defensive cooldowns. Like Sha of Fear or similar.
    I actually thought that Holy Avenger was better on Sha of Fear, because its duration is about the same length as the time you are tanking him, making Thrash completely irrelevant.
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  10. #1450
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Its the most difficult to sim, and for tanks the main use of that tier right now is for a reliable cooldown to add to the arsenal, DP is more TDR or luck

    Also to chime into the discussion with a more healer oriented side, a lot of people's arguments seem to be that the 20% healing increase goes to waste a lot, but I know that in a 10 man environment, if your Paladin tank is taking ~50% reduced damage and 20% increased healing, thats more than enough to heal in a very efficient way compared to just 50% for HA's extended buff duration, may well still have to weave in some higher throughput heals causing more mana to be expended. This is one of the things I think Firefly is trying to put across, and its a very valid reason to choose one talent over the other, since thats what the mitigation vs TDR argument boils down to ultimately.
    Well, also part of my point is that, when do you use these cooldowns? Yes, when you are likely to die.
    You do not use these cooldowns when you take no damage and have 100% health which is why I think comparing it between SS and EF is kinda wrong.

    Fair to assume that you will not be on 100% health when you are about to die making the 20% healing taken very effective.

    For me, it is in a way like comparing mastery with dodge/parry though with a lit bess RNG in Dodge and Parry. Yes, dodge and parry provides more TDR than mastery, but is that really relevant? Mastery provides a bigger damage reduction when you actually needs it making it a billion times for useful.

    Same goes for these talents. Often after the first 5-15 seconds of the cooldown, the cooldown is basically "wasted", or just a nice to have, making both the 20% healing taking increase and increased uptime from SW useless, and the extended duration of sotr with HA equally useless. The only interesting part is the first 5-15 seconds (on most fights). And on those 5-15 seconds, it is a simple comparison between 100% SotR uptime + 20% healing taken vs 100% SotR uptime. Nothing harder to compare really.

    This is why I feel like HA is more of a niche ability. Since it provides worse protection (undeniably) on the shorter predictable bursts, which is what we use these cooldowns for mostly.

    As I said earlier. Fights where HA can pull ahead SW defensively.

    1. Extremely long damage burst fights. ( adds on Empress P2 for example )

    2. Fights designed better for the HA 2 min CD. Some fights are naturally designed where you need a damage reduction every 2.5 minutes or something which makes HA better. A rare niche. Especially now without shorter CD on SW.

    (3). Fights where you do not really need either SW or HA, though really horrible point. Since if you do not need either HA or SW, well, then it does not really matter.
    So really as the point below, not really that important either. DP is very viable on a fight like this.

    (4). Quick reaction to something unpredictable. For some reason you need a cd NOW, because, well, some add went enrage or a healer died or whatever. If you are not prepared for the damage spike, HA is better for the first few seconds, making it a better oh shit button. Though I feel like Lay on Hands and ardent defender, not to mention bubble and shit is enough oh shit that we do not really need HA as oh shit. So this point is more of an extra, not really that much weight in it.

    SW pulls ahead on

    1. Magic Damage heavy fights
    2. Any fight with predictable damage in-take. Especially if you know "okay, I am gonna use my <insert t5 talent> at this point"

    (3). Not that big of a deal, but any fight that you can not simply use spells during, if that is because you are stunned, out of range or whatever, HA provides 0 use if you can not attack an enemy, SW does.
    (4). This is like a P.S.S.S. SW + LAotL = RUN PALA RUN!
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  11. #1451
    Epic! GenaiTN's Avatar
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    Firefly have you applied to be a new mod for Paladongs?

  12. #1452
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    I actually thought that Holy Avenger was better on Sha of Fear, because its duration is about the same length as the time you are tanking him, making Thrash completely irrelevant.
    Ah, but that is another discussion. That is kinda the haste vs mastery discussion (disregarding the dps benefit of haste).

    HA makes the fight less complicated and easier, you do not need to bother when you use your SotR.
    Though does that make it better? Its like taking an escalator instead of the stairs. Its convienient but taking the stairs is probably faster and gives us that well needed excercise that we paladins need.

    If you can time your SotR with the Thrashes, which is not really that hard to do, than HA loses pretty much all of its value, since you are already covering all thrashes, you can't cover more. HA will only cover more regular melee hits which are non-important.

    Though if you are missing to cover a lot of thrashes, using HA do so you can just use SotR on cooldown and do not really bother with when you use SotR.
    Ha just leaves more room for error.

    So it is a bit the same, but more extreme than mastery vs haste. Haste pulls ahead defensively if you do not time your SotR's, having more haste = bigger % chance that you will have SotR up for those situations when you need it by accident. Whereas if you use SotR intentionally when you know you are gonna take a big hit, mastery pulls miles ahead of haste, but it requires more timing and precision to pull off, with more room for error.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 11:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Felir View Post
    Firefly have you applied to be a new mod for Paladongs?
    Firstly I need to apply to be a new mod for my refridgerator (Yes, I spelled that wrong).

    Was hungry last night and needed something to eat. What I found that was edible.

    1 Tomato
    1 Beer Can (not edible but drinkable)
    1 Chocolate Bar that a guy gave as a 'gift' to me and my roommates (we got 1 each) _/

    Best evening meal ever!
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #1453
    You shouldn't keep chocolate in the fridge.
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  14. #1454
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    HA is effective in that it can be used as a big defensive cooldown for tough damage intake phases. I remember, for instance, in Meljarak HC while solotaking I'd run HA then GoAK once it's down and then DP + Trinket and that would be exactly enough to make sure I had some form of damage reduction permanently until the first group of adds died.
    Yeah, which was exactly what I wrote. That long extended periods when the extended duration of HA is not 'wasted' it is good.
    Though that is more a niche because the fights where that is relevant is not even 20% of the fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    You shouldn't keep chocolate in the fridge.
    Oh it wasnt it was just next to the fridge.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-03-11 at 11:10 AM.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #1455
    Epic! rawhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    You shouldn't keep chocolate in the fridge.
    I always keep chocolate in the fridge - tastes so much better imo.

    OT: anyone need a pally tank for progression? My guild kinda imploded.
    Keeping it url since 1864.

  16. #1456
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    When you guys fought Tortos which role did you fill? Boss or bat tank?

    I was on boss while our druid was on the bats but he was constantly losing aggro and bats would flock to me and then they'd get locked there due to Consecration and all that and I have to stop all AoE so they'd get back, but I think I saw someone suggesting the Protadin should take the bats a few pages ago... Why is that?


  17. #1457
    On 10 man, you can probably solo tank it. On 25 tank the boss in the beginning to build up some vengeance, then when the bats spawn they should easily switch to you due to Battle Mender threat. All you need to do at that point is just turn around and tank the bats right on top of the boss. This should be an easy place to allow melee to cleave aoe, and have ranged do their aoe's right over the bats/boss to get double the benefit. You can also have the turtle shell go through the bats into the boss to kill them really quick.



  18. #1458
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    When you guys fought Tortos which role did you fill? Boss or bat tank?

    I was on boss while our druid was on the bats but he was constantly losing aggro and bats would flock to me and then they'd get locked there due to Consecration and all that and I have to stop all AoE so they'd get back, but I think I saw someone suggesting the Protadin should take the bats a few pages ago... Why is that?
    As a rule of thumb, when tanking a lot of mobs a block tank is superior to an avoidance tank. We take more consistent damage, and especially for these bats that's a good thing because you don't want to drop below 350.000 health faster than a healer can react to it. But on normal i guess either should work fine if healers are keeping an eye on it. No rogue or hunter in your group? It's useful for the bats.

  19. #1459
    I tanked the bats.
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  20. #1460
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    I tanked the bats.
    Pressing F5 on the paladin forum.

    YAY NEW POST IN THE PROTECTION PALADIN THREAD! Maybe something to discuss?

    Read your post.

    Instantly sad panda.

    Holy, Righteous, Sacred
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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