[MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

[Deleted]

Thanks for all the tips, guys! Gonna try it later tonight and see how it goes.

[Nairobi]

One vote for HA on this. I start the fight, then pop Wings/HA and go HAM on my 2 adds. Nuked to dead super fast and no "traditional" tank CDs used.

That said, we dump the 4 tank adds into inactive golems, then just burn the boss before he gets to full energy. We CBA to learn how to actually do the fight until heroic.

[Promdates]

We CBA to learn how to actually do the fight until heroic.

You should change that philosophy. Half-assing your way through normals, only to have to learn heroic mechanics and normal mechanics can be very rough. It's best to know how to mitigate/avoid the normal mode mechanics and use them to your benefit, THEN adapt to the heroic mechanics before you have to relearn everything. We had that issue on a few of the T14 heroic fights because people just derped their way thorugh the normal mode mechanics.

[Monolith of Mazes]

I'm very bothered by expertise/hit on trinkets. I just got ji-kuns rising winds in LFR today. If I wanna use it I'll need to drop exp from gear, but then if I want to swap trinks I'll be under cap

[Deleted]

I'm very bothered by expertise/hit on trinkets. I just got ji-kuns rising winds in LFR today. If I wanna use it I'll need to drop exp from gear, but then if I want to swap trinks I'll be under cap

Being under expertise cap is not a big deal. Still. Ghost iron dragonling is better than Ji-Kuns. No reason at all to use Ji-Kuns.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Being under expertise cap is not a big deal. Still. Ghost iron dragonling is better than Ji-Kuns. No reason at all to use Ji-Kuns.

Not wearing a trinket at all is probably about the same as equipping Ji-Kun's...

[Deleted]

Not wearing a trinket at all is probably about the same as equipping Ji-Kun's...

Like this one?

Elegon Trinket

[Monolith of Mazes]

Being under expertise cap is not a big deal.

Being under exp cap kinda defeats the purpose of a control / haste build. The healing from ji-kuns is a bit underwhelming though, you're right. I don't fall that low very often unless we're wiping. I guess I'll just keep it in my bank until there's some situation that calls for it... maybe some new chimaeron boss or something.

[Deleted]

Being under exp cap kinda defeats the purpose of a control / haste build.

Ellaborate? The purpose of a haste build is to generate faster holy power so you can cover more boss melee swings (as you can already cover all special attacks) with SotR, aswell as getting more SoI procs, more dps, faster SS absorbs. Expertise fall short in all of those categories. The only slight benefit of it is the added reliablity, but that is so small that it can almost be ignored.

In fact, it is pretty safe to say that any fight that you swap up an expertise trinket on, expertise is probably your worst stat anyway. Since you are likely to swap out expertise trinket for a stamina trinket. That means that the boss fight has considerable damage output / bursty damage output, any of which greatly favors mastery. So for those types of fights that you would swap out expertise trinket, expertise is your weakest stat anyway. (disregarding dodge, parry and crit ofc).

The healing from ji-kuns is a bit underwhelming though, you're right. I don't fall that low very often unless we're wiping. I guess I'll just keep it in my bank until there's some situation that calls for it... maybe some new chimaeron boss or something.

The only fight I actually used it for was for soloing chimaeron. (got the trolling-for-raid version)

[MerinPally]

Being under exp cap kinda defeats the purpose of a control / haste build. The healing from ji-kuns is a bit underwhelming though, you're right. I don't fall that low very often unless we're wiping. I guess I'll just keep it in my bank until there's some situation that calls for it... maybe some new chimaeron boss or something.

Not necessarily. If even without, the damage you take is fine then doing more dps isn't going to hurt. Keep in mind the whole reason for hit and exp cap is to maximize the defensive value of haste to smooth damage. If damage is smoothed sufficiently then if the dps gained from the haste outweighs that lost from losing exp cap, you're benefitting yourself. All depends on the boss you're doing and the state of your healers, and your own skill to an extent too.

[Monolith of Mazes]

Not necessarily. If even without, the damage you take is fine then doing more dps isn't going to hurt. Keep in mind the whole reason for hit and exp cap is to maximize the defensive value of haste to smooth damage. If damage is smoothed sufficiently then if the dps gained from the haste outweighs that lost from losing exp cap, you're benefitting yourself. All depends on the boss you're doing and the state of your healers, and your own skill to an extent too.

Even if it is a dps gain, having a holy power stream that you can rely on is the purpose of control / haste as opposed to a pure haste build. You might even generate more holy power over the course of a fight, but if you can't generate it when you need it due to a string of unlucky dodge/parry then you could be in trouble.

[Deleted]

Not necessarily. If even without, the damage you take is fine then doing more dps isn't going to hurt. Keep in mind the whole reason for hit and exp cap is to maximize the defensive value of haste to smooth damage. If damage is smoothed sufficiently then if the dps gained from the haste outweighs that lost from losing exp cap, you're benefitting yourself. All depends on the boss you're doing and the state of your healers, and your own skill to an extent too.

Haste still outweighs expertise in terms of buffing haste. Now, I know all people like to stare blindly at thecks montecarlo simulations. One thing you haven't considered yet is that theck has not run a simulation comparing haste and expertise for smoothening with the new shift queue he made.
(also, props to theck there, his simulations got more realistic now)
Such a simulation would grant far different results from the previous ones, which were quite frankly, not so well modelled.

Still, I feel like you can quantify tanking. You can do the math on some things, but for me, the "maths" just give you a foundation to make a philsophical decision about tanking. In the end, there is always an error in the math, or some fight that changes everything, or some other way to look at things. There is not just one answer to tank.

Depending on the fight, mastery may also be better than both haste and expertise at buffing haste.

I personally consider expertise after hard cap as being behind both haste and mastery defensively, but still prio on expertise for me over mastery simply because the dps increase.

---------- Post added 2013-03-27 at 01:07 AM ----------

Even if it is a dps gain, having a holy power stream that you can rely on is the purpose of control / haste as opposed to a pure haste build. You might even generate more holy power over the course of a fight, but if you can't generate it when you need it due to a string of unlucky dodge/parry then you could be in trouble.

Lets say you drop to 12 or 13 expertise. That is a 2% chance to miss one of your three HoPo generators. Not the biggest deal in the world. in the odd occation that you miss two in a row, it still barely matters. Reliablity is taking way to much weight here.

Remember that judgement and GC can't be parried.

Even if you miss every single cs you use, you will still have enough judgements in between a boss special ability to have it up for the next one.

I do not think the reliablity argument is strong enough to justfiy the

"Must have 15 expertise!"
-Zombie Paladin

that most paladins today seem to have.

As I said earlier in another thread. Going for more haste over expertise hard cap will probably grant you better results in atleast 9 out of 10 fights, probably more. Why balance your gearing around the exception?

I have been playing with 9-10 expertise during T14 and 12 expertise now in T15, I have never ONCE died by getting parried.

[Monolith of Mazes]

I have been playing with 9-10 expertise during T14 and 12 expertise now in T15, I have never ONCE died by getting parried.

Yeah it would be a pretty slim shot. And there aren't many fights thatll one shot you for not using sotr (looking at YOU ra den who I will probably never see). It might be worth it to leave my 15 exp comfort zone, see how it goes.

[Deleted]

Yeah it would be a pretty slim shot. And there aren't many fights thatll one shot you for not using sotr (looking at YOU ra den who I will probably never see). It might be worth it to leave my 15 exp comfort zone, see how it goes.

The thing is, you do not need to leave your comfort zone. But for those fights where you actually do have to change trinket, it is not the end of the world, especially as you will only drop to like 12.5 or something.

And, well, the point is, good HoPo usage will allow you to have SotR up every time you need it, no matter how many CS you miss.

[Promdates]

I have never ONCE died by getting parried.

Because you won't die if you have an ability get parried. Hit/exp past the 7.5/each is primarily a dps gain, not a mitigation gain. You can go with 7.5% of each, and some people do. You might get a parry in there, you might not. The additional 7.5% for parry really only affects 1-2 abilities.

Tanking is NOT dps. There is no straight forward "DO THIS, WEAR THIS, GEM THIS" like there is for dps. Tanking/healing is not a complicated algebra formula to determine maximum damage per second. If you want to roll with 12% expertise and an additional bit of haste, go for it. If what one person does works for them, by all means that's their correct way of doing it.

I personally wear a lot of stamina gems and go for 7.5/15. I also have somewhere around 8500 haste (5974 with stam trinkets). My reasoning for my gearing is going to be totally different from what someone else might go with. I messed around with a lot of different combinations when I tanked on my monk. Switching between 7.5% exp to 15% and anywhere between.

If you're able to minimize damage taken, maximize damage done and still not die... then you're fine.

[Deleted]

Hit/exp past the 7.5/each is primarily a dps gain, not a mitigation gain.

Then why is it even a discussion? Haste provides more dps than expertise.

Also, comparing Stamina, haste, and mastery with eachother is a hard work. But comparing haste and expertise with eachother is kinda easy. Since they provide exactly the same things. Except that haste also helps SS. So yeah, it is very hard to call someone right or wrong if they so chose to gear for stamina, haste, or mastery. Whatever floats your boat. But expertise is not in the same spot. It has been considered a god for so long, but it is not actually that strong.

[Xs]

Then why is it even a discussion? Haste provides more dps than expertise.

Depends how you want to play Loladin, if you prefer an automatic rotation such that you can focus more, the minor annoyance of a missed yellow may well screw with your head, if you have a giant holy power bar in the middle of your screen and a honking horn every time your CS gets avoided, then by all means go with Haste

[Deleted]

Just wanted to say thanks to all the folks that helped with Dark Animus. Once I stopped noobing it out (after reading your tips) he fell real quickly. Iron Qon seems easy too, though that enrage timer is tight, might have to drop a healer.

[Deleted]

Depends how you want to play Loladin, if you prefer an automatic rotation such that you can focus more, the minor annoyance of a missed yellow may well screw with your head, if you have a giant holy power bar in the middle of your screen and a honking horn every time your CS gets avoided, then by all means go with Haste

Is a parry that big of a deal?

I barely notice them. Its most often after checking the combat log afterwards.

[pld]

Do you think it was intended for prot paladins to prioritize haste over defensive stats such as parry/dodge? I usually queue as DPS in my LFRs and have to swap to my Ret spec when using my extra roll to get the haste pieces.

A bit annoying, but also curious if that's what other prots do too?