1. #1641
    Quote Originally Posted by Monolith of Mazes View Post
    Being under exp cap kinda defeats the purpose of a control / haste build.
    Ellaborate? The purpose of a haste build is to generate faster holy power so you can cover more boss melee swings (as you can already cover all special attacks) with SotR, aswell as getting more SoI procs, more dps, faster SS absorbs. Expertise fall short in all of those categories. The only slight benefit of it is the added reliablity, but that is so small that it can almost be ignored.

    In fact, it is pretty safe to say that any fight that you swap up an expertise trinket on, expertise is probably your worst stat anyway. Since you are likely to swap out expertise trinket for a stamina trinket. That means that the boss fight has considerable damage output / bursty damage output, any of which greatly favors mastery. So for those types of fights that you would swap out expertise trinket, expertise is your weakest stat anyway. (disregarding dodge, parry and crit ofc).

    The healing from ji-kuns is a bit underwhelming though, you're right. I don't fall that low very often unless we're wiping. I guess I'll just keep it in my bank until there's some situation that calls for it... maybe some new chimaeron boss or something.
    The only fight I actually used it for was for soloing chimaeron. (got the trolling-for-raid version)
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-03-26 at 11:57 PM.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #1642
    Old God MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monolith of Mazes View Post
    Being under exp cap kinda defeats the purpose of a control / haste build. The healing from ji-kuns is a bit underwhelming though, you're right. I don't fall that low very often unless we're wiping. I guess I'll just keep it in my bank until there's some situation that calls for it... maybe some new chimaeron boss or something.
    Not necessarily. If even without, the damage you take is fine then doing more dps isn't going to hurt. Keep in mind the whole reason for hit and exp cap is to maximize the defensive value of haste to smooth damage. If damage is smoothed sufficiently then if the dps gained from the haste outweighs that lost from losing exp cap, you're benefitting yourself. All depends on the boss you're doing and the state of your healers, and your own skill to an extent too.

  3. #1643
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Not necessarily. If even without, the damage you take is fine then doing more dps isn't going to hurt. Keep in mind the whole reason for hit and exp cap is to maximize the defensive value of haste to smooth damage. If damage is smoothed sufficiently then if the dps gained from the haste outweighs that lost from losing exp cap, you're benefitting yourself. All depends on the boss you're doing and the state of your healers, and your own skill to an extent too.
    Even if it is a dps gain, having a holy power stream that you can rely on is the purpose of control / haste as opposed to a pure haste build. You might even generate more holy power over the course of a fight, but if you can't generate it when you need it due to a string of unlucky dodge/parry then you could be in trouble.

  4. #1644
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    Not necessarily. If even without, the damage you take is fine then doing more dps isn't going to hurt. Keep in mind the whole reason for hit and exp cap is to maximize the defensive value of haste to smooth damage. If damage is smoothed sufficiently then if the dps gained from the haste outweighs that lost from losing exp cap, you're benefitting yourself. All depends on the boss you're doing and the state of your healers, and your own skill to an extent too.
    Haste still outweighs expertise in terms of buffing haste. Now, I know all people like to stare blindly at thecks montecarlo simulations. One thing you haven't considered yet is that theck has not run a simulation comparing haste and expertise for smoothening with the new shift queue he made.
    (also, props to theck there, his simulations got more realistic now)
    Such a simulation would grant far different results from the previous ones, which were quite frankly, not so well modelled.

    Still, I feel like you can quantify tanking. You can do the math on some things, but for me, the "maths" just give you a foundation to make a philsophical decision about tanking. In the end, there is always an error in the math, or some fight that changes everything, or some other way to look at things. There is not just one answer to tank.

    Depending on the fight, mastery may also be better than both haste and expertise at buffing haste.

    I personally consider expertise after hard cap as being behind both haste and mastery defensively, but still prio on expertise for me over mastery simply because the dps increase.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-27 at 01:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Monolith of Mazes View Post
    Even if it is a dps gain, having a holy power stream that you can rely on is the purpose of control / haste as opposed to a pure haste build. You might even generate more holy power over the course of a fight, but if you can't generate it when you need it due to a string of unlucky dodge/parry then you could be in trouble.
    Lets say you drop to 12 or 13 expertise. That is a 2% chance to miss one of your three HoPo generators. Not the biggest deal in the world. in the odd occation that you miss two in a row, it still barely matters. Reliablity is taking way to much weight here.

    Remember that judgement and GC can't be parried.

    Even if you miss every single cs you use, you will still have enough judgements in between a boss special ability to have it up for the next one.

    I do not think the reliablity argument is strong enough to justfiy the

    "Must have 15 expertise!"
    -Zombie Paladin

    that most paladins today seem to have.

    As I said earlier in another thread. Going for more haste over expertise hard cap will probably grant you better results in atleast 9 out of 10 fights, probably more. Why balance your gearing around the exception?

    I have been playing with 9-10 expertise during T14 and 12 expertise now in T15, I have never ONCE died by getting parried.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-03-27 at 12:10 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #1645
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I have been playing with 9-10 expertise during T14 and 12 expertise now in T15, I have never ONCE died by getting parried.
    Yeah it would be a pretty slim shot. And there aren't many fights thatll one shot you for not using sotr (looking at YOU ra den who I will probably never see). It might be worth it to leave my 15 exp comfort zone, see how it goes.

  6. #1646
    Quote Originally Posted by Monolith of Mazes View Post
    Yeah it would be a pretty slim shot. And there aren't many fights thatll one shot you for not using sotr (looking at YOU ra den who I will probably never see). It might be worth it to leave my 15 exp comfort zone, see how it goes.
    The thing is, you do not need to leave your comfort zone. But for those fights where you actually do have to change trinket, it is not the end of the world, especially as you will only drop to like 12.5 or something.

    And, well, the point is, good HoPo usage will allow you to have SotR up every time you need it, no matter how many CS you miss.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #1647
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I have never ONCE died by getting parried.
    Because you won't die if you have an ability get parried. Hit/exp past the 7.5/each is primarily a dps gain, not a mitigation gain. You can go with 7.5% of each, and some people do. You might get a parry in there, you might not. The additional 7.5% for parry really only affects 1-2 abilities.

    Tanking is NOT dps. There is no straight forward "DO THIS, WEAR THIS, GEM THIS" like there is for dps. Tanking/healing is not a complicated algebra formula to determine maximum damage per second. If you want to roll with 12% expertise and an additional bit of haste, go for it. If what one person does works for them, by all means that's their correct way of doing it.

    I personally wear a lot of stamina gems and go for 7.5/15. I also have somewhere around 8500 haste (5974 with stam trinkets). My reasoning for my gearing is going to be totally different from what someone else might go with. I messed around with a lot of different combinations when I tanked on my monk. Switching between 7.5% exp to 15% and anywhere between.

    If you're able to minimize damage taken, maximize damage done and still not die... then you're fine.



  8. #1648
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    Hit/exp past the 7.5/each is primarily a dps gain, not a mitigation gain.
    Then why is it even a discussion? Haste provides more dps than expertise.

    Also, comparing Stamina, haste, and mastery with eachother is a hard work. But comparing haste and expertise with eachother is kinda easy. Since they provide exactly the same things. Except that haste also helps SS. So yeah, it is very hard to call someone right or wrong if they so chose to gear for stamina, haste, or mastery. Whatever floats your boat. But expertise is not in the same spot. It has been considered a god for so long, but it is not actually that strong.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-03-27 at 01:06 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #1649
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Then why is it even a discussion? Haste provides more dps than expertise.
    Depends how you want to play Loladin, if you prefer an automatic rotation such that you can focus more, the minor annoyance of a missed yellow may well screw with your head, if you have a giant holy power bar in the middle of your screen and a honking horn every time your CS gets avoided, then by all means go with Haste

  10. #1650
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Just wanted to say thanks to all the folks that helped with Dark Animus. Once I stopped noobing it out (after reading your tips) he fell real quickly. Iron Qon seems easy too, though that enrage timer is tight, might have to drop a healer.


  11. #1651
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Depends how you want to play Loladin, if you prefer an automatic rotation such that you can focus more, the minor annoyance of a missed yellow may well screw with your head, if you have a giant holy power bar in the middle of your screen and a honking horn every time your CS gets avoided, then by all means go with Haste
    Is a parry that big of a deal?

    I barely notice them. Its most often after checking the combat log afterwards.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #1652
    Do you think it was intended for prot paladins to prioritize haste over defensive stats such as parry/dodge? I usually queue as DPS in my LFRs and have to swap to my Ret spec when using my extra roll to get the haste pieces.

    A bit annoying, but also curious if that's what other prots do too?

  13. #1653
    Old God MerinPally's Avatar
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    Intended? No, but it was pointed out to Blizzard back in the beta and they did nothing. Then just before 5.2 I think they announced something about how it was wrong that prot wanted rets tier pieces (questionable...) but then I can't remember if they said any more. Basically they were given warning, didn't do anything about it and haven't attempted to change it so they must be content about it now at least. This is the second tier of the three we get normally, so it's quite late to actually do anything about it, 6 months through.

    People can theorize about the parry/dodge for GC change being their attempt to change it but within about... an hour of it being announced, the whole community said "Doesn't change a thing" and they would have known that, so it's clear they haven't said "Oh no, we can't be having that" and are cool with it. Just have to wait and see whether they change us back in the next expansion, or whether they make DK's and Warriors similar to us. Having said that though, we could see another big stat overhaul so...

  14. #1654
    They gotta have had some thought behind it. They did not just randomly add SoB for tanks. They atleast intended it to be a useable stats. I think the objection they have is that tanks prioritise dps gear instead of tank gear, not the stat itself. I think they are quite happy with where haste is today, just not how it is obtained. Haste is a much better designed tank stat than the tank stats. It is interactive and you can really notice the difference.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #1655
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Is a parry that big of a deal?

    I barely notice them. Its most often after checking the combat log afterwards.
    For me at least, its more the annoyance of counting 12345 in your head, and a random 1% parry throwing that off

  16. #1656
    This may be a bad place to post this but we have recently power leveled and tried to quickly gear an alt paladin to be our new offtank in our 10man run and we got him to aroudn 490 ilvl and took him into ToT last night to try to get some gear. He gets hit pretty hard (as expected due to low gear) but I was curious if there is anything specific that would help while we are in the gearing process and smooth out some progression fights (Tortos bats were dropping him fast).... or should he go for the Hit->Exp 15%->Haste right off the bat? Right now he has Stamina gems just to get his hp up since we 2 heal everything. I know in the long run it will be fine, but its just right now it seems dicey. Any tips? Armory -> http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rseen/advanced

  17. #1657
    At lower gear levels his stamina will be very low, so stamina gems are fine. This will also mean that his secondary stats will be low. I would advice going for hit>exp7.5 and then going either haste or mastery while his secondary stats are low. If he funnels everything into expetise hard cap there will basically not be any secondary stats left.
    Replace stuff of nightmares with Ghost Iron Dragonling, hit exp haste/mastery gems.
    He should probably get a stamina trinket though when his item level is so low.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #1658
    Not sure how expensive but try to get him a crafted helm (522), or tell him to kill a few rares --> get key of tropes --> get a lot of coins and run terrace with bonus rolls (probably biggest upgrade for him).
    Also after trying out i'm fairly happy with hit>exp(7.5)>haste>exp(15)>mastery so can also try to do that. (hurray for something like 30+% unbuffed haste)

    Talking about http://www.wowhead.com/item=94266 which is probably BiS till tier helm.

  19. #1659
    There's 148 of the stupid blue pvp craftable items that you can learn along with the 522 raid craftables, and only one per day at that.



  20. #1660
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    There's 148 of the stupid blue pvp craftable items that you can learn along with the 522 raid craftables, and only one per day at that.
    a)56 (or so)
    b)doesn't have to be someone in guild, fairly sure that there's a high chance that someone on server did

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