Battle healer nerfs! Sky! Falling! Etc
Instead, spells are the ones with a shorter GCD due to the spell haste raid buff, so it leads to the same issue either way. :Pif it did, spells like AS and SS would have a longer GCD and cooldown than their melee counterparts, leading to some odd delaying effects and clash possibilities in the rotation)
So you are denying that 10 and 25 is fundamentally different? I only stated that because theck mentioned some problems that I do not feel as a 10 tank, and vice versa i have some problems in 10 that is not shared with the 25 counterpart. Seems silly to state that 10=25 as you seem to incline.
And when did I ever say that 'haste makes me FEEL like i am surviving more', if anything i said the opposite by stating that exp has a more notable effect than hastes more subtle effect (as you wont tell as easily that getting your spells of 0.01 sec earlier saved your life as with a parried attack)
You seem to be grasping thin air, but if you dont like me, it is fine
And no, I am not gonna start simulating since I do not have thr skillset for that.
But just because I do not sim doesnt mean I cant give constructive criticism to someone that does. By your logic noone can agree or disagree with theck because no other paladin tank sim? Unless you sim, you arent entitled to an opinion either right?
I am however planning another project in the future
---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 12:13 AM ----------
And I dont remember discussing tortos dps, granted I took a rank 1 but was not really impressive as not many people solo tanked it.
Still, just tanked the bats on top of the boss. Nothing special really, is there any other way (other than kiting) to do it?
Still, high dps as tank on tortos is about dpsers doing low dps. So nothing impressive there at all really.
Also, I must have missed my rebuttal. We only agreed to disagree. I value hopo regen, dps, rppm procs, SS ticks and hps over reliability of haste. You are measuring 6 different factors, all with individual value. Who is to say who is right? Personally I dont value reliability as i feel it is reliable enough and being below exp cap has never yet cost my life since mop release. That is reliable enough for me. But please enlighten me where I got my rebuttal.
I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.
Glyph of the Battle Healer now heals a nearby injured friendly target, excluding the Paladin, for 20% of damage dealt while Seal of Insight is active, down from 30%.
long awaited nerf strike. 33% nerf to our raid healing, still doesn't change our superiority.
Also on the subject of you 3(4) discussing the various ideologies, keep it up personally I tend to sit on Firefly's preferences but with exp rating higher than he does, as I prefer to remove as much randomness as possible from my character, freeing up my cooldowns to cover real issues
Well xs, youvknow how much i hate randomness aswwell from the avoidance discussions.
Which is kinda my poibt here. From playing below exp cap entire expansion, I dont feel that there is much randomness about it. I stillcover every boss special with sotr, most of the time not even noticing the misses.
Granted this can be a different story in 25s when boss melee matters more, which should make the randomness factor higher. But as i got no experience from 25 this expansion I cant comment on that.
---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 08:21 AM ----------
Though to sau again.this discussion is a tier late. Since you can exp cap bwith haste>exp prio. Im on about 13-14 exp now, was on 15 earlier.
I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.
In some ways the element I find more interesting about the gearing in this tier are all the secondary stat oriented trinkets. Especially the expertise/hit ones.
Personally, I'm not prepared to use trinkets to hit / expertise cap. I want to be able to swap in dual stam trinkets and/or dual dps trinkets and/or whatever other fight specific trinket(s) seems appropriate.
Those who're less concerned with reliability in their survival stats would presumably be happy enough with using a trinket for expertise, but even for them using a trinket for hit would be an issue. And remember it's not just the default stats on the trinket, maintaining swappability in your trinkets locks you out of reforging non-hit/exp trinkets to hit/exp.
Personally I have Soul Barrier in fairly constantly, normally paired with Spark of Zandalar, but I also occasionally swap in my 2/2 upgraded Lao-Chin's Liquid Courage & I keep Stuff of Nightmares floating around in my bags for if I need a mastery trinket (haven't used it currently, contemplating trying it for H-Tortos when I get onto it in the next week or two). If I had Fortitude of the Zandalari then I'd regard that as a much more compelling mastery option for some fights.
I've basically dismissed Ji-kun's Rising Winds & all the other expertise/hit trinkets because I'm not prepared to lock them in permanently & 60% of their stats would be wasted if they were a swap-in piece. I'm not particularly happy about doing that, but I feel it's the best approach if you maintain flexibility without routine reforging.
Curious how other people have been approaching their trinket slots.
Granted, i'm running 10M currently and I don't feel like I need a stam trinket... Ever. When I was doing 25s earlier this teir, I ran one Accuracy trinket always, and one Stam trinket/non accuracy trinket (fort of the zandalari)
The only difference between 10 and 25 is strategy. When it comes to tanking fundamentally it's still the same: be healable, keep threat, minimize raid damage. Tank theory-crafting targets being healable.
As far as my "feeling" usage, as long as you don't provide empirical data to support your theory then all it is is a feeling. In my line of work (computers) I am quite familiar with people's "feelings". Generally something "feels" better or faster when you receive a highly animated feedback (like a fast moving progress bar vs a slow moving progress bar). Haste tanking feels faster so therefore it can have the feeling of being better. And you could play better when you feel more comfortable with or enjoy your style of play.
In the end, who cares? Play the way you enjoy. Take the bits and pieces that you want from the current theory-crafting and bend it to your will.
That does have a subtle effect on how each stat impacts your survivability, but not a lot. For example, Stamina still gives you smoother intake than haste whether the boss hits for 150k or 350k. The size of the gap just shifts a little.
The more important point, which is something I've been trying to hammer home for a long time, is that "stamina > haste for survivability" is not the same as "stack stamina to the exclusion of all else." While having more survivability is always nice, it's not always necessary either. Good tanks learn to recognize when they already have enough survivability for an encounter, and at that point are free to allocate stats wherever they see fit. Which generally means shifting to haste for more DPS nowadays. Which is especially efficient since the survivability sacrifice of stacking haste instead of stamina is relatively small.
So it doesn't really surprise me that you find yourself nearly invulnerable in 10-man raiding, because the survivability threshold is lower in that format. As such, dropping below expertise cap isn't really a problem. Sure, you lose the reliability, but if you're already above a survival threshold you feel comfortable with, that isn't an issue. The fact that expertise might be slightly better doesn't make what you're doing wrong - it just means you're making a calculated trade.
---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 10:42 AM ----------
---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 10:46 AM ----------
Or at least, that's how I play. Maybe others organize their thought process differently. It would be nice if they were made equal, but that would require SoB going back to spell haste. Which I always thought was a cleaner implementation, personally, if not for spell haste debuffs in PvP. If those debuffs were scaled by cast time (i.e. increased cast time by X% rather than decreasing spell haste), it would remove the problem. Though spell haste is sort of out of control too, so we'd probably have to lose the 10% spell haste on Seal of Insight if that change happened.
---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 10:55 AM ----------
Of course, that doesn't include your ability to react with AD and what not, and I think that trying to build a comprehensive set of cooldown/reaction logic is no easy task, and probably beyond the scope of the simulation I've written (partly because, like you, I have ... plans; let's just say if all goes well this summer may be a very interesting time for tanks of all varieties). However, the point is that while you were able to respond with AD to counteract that situation, perhaps with expertise you wouldn't have had to in the first place.
So while you might not know how many times the haste saved you, I also don't think it's fair to assume a value without evidence. It may have saved you 3x or it may have saved you 1x - who's to say? The best estimate we have is to compare it to overall spike prevention, which is what the stochastic simulations I run are modeling.
---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 11:04 AM ----------
It's data from a model of how a very complex and intricate system works. Sort of like how statisticians model population flow, or the stock market. While it is rather sophisticated, and may very well be the best model we have available, it is in no way complete. It's an abstraction that tries to do the best job it can of modeling the situation in a way that produces useful results.
It's also not infallible. I'm human after all, I make mistakes. But I try to be as open as I can with the code so that if I do make mistakes, they can be identified and corrected and the model improved (see the last two weeks - I found a bug with my Sacred Shield implementation that was skewing results, and posted a follow-up to make sure people knew about the change). That's very important, because I don't do this stuff so people will worship me as the patron saint of paladin tanking. I do it because I want to make sure our class has as accurate and reliable information as possible (partially for selfish reasons - I want to be able to answer the questions I come up with while analyzing my own performance, and often those answers don't exist before I work the problem out or simulate it).
I don't consider you a paladin saint but I do respect your well thought reasoning and your time. I respect Firefly's time (and everyone else's time) as well. After all we aren't making money doing this (usually). I see that your spending a lot of effort in this. And I'm only defending your efforts as I would defend my own in any project I work on.
Of course I could come up with suggestions as well but I don't want to make more work for you. For example instead of simming a "healthless" tank you could sim a "mid-tier geared" tank and simulate a constant incoming heal on the tank based on the average "mid-tier geared" healer and call a sim failed when the tank dies. I could suggest running only 1 minute tank tests since most swap fights consist of roughly that amount of time tanking. I could make these suggestions but I won't. :P
You could sim yourself to death but there's a point where I start to see it as "too much" with little gained other than a more close "human" simulation and I don't think that is needed. Help out SETI or protein folding instead. jk
However, I have since abandonded that.
I use HC Feather (Ref Hit->Haste) and HC Spark probably 99% of the time. I won't bother to re-spew my diatribe on the wonders of these trinkets as stat banks, their procs and scaling with our absurd haste, or their undeniable positive interactions with DPS and mitigation, but you can probably find those thoughts on the front page somewhere.
I have a Soul Barrier that I use VERY infrequently on progression if/when magic damage is an issue. I swap that in over Spark, but I hardly use it anymore to be honest. The on-use is terrible, even in 10man. If there was a similar trinket to last tier's stam ones (with on-use mastery!) to macro to HA, I may opt for that, but as there isn't, I don't. I also have vendored my JiKun's Winds POS. I have not attempted to roll for a HC Fort of Zandalari, but that would/could be a good option...I just don't see myself needing it currently (only 6/13 HC tho).
So yes, my TL;DR is embrace the accuracy trinkets, as they are beast as all hell. Even the SPA rep trinket, which I used prior to Feather, was a great pick-up. Once you get a feather and see it's uptime (PS, learn to watch it's proc and refresh SS at 10 stacks for bonus shields!) you'll wonder what you did before it.
Just an addition here, but I wanted to jump on the HA train as well. I know, stochastically, that at moderate haste levels DP will pull ahead for overall uptime. I use it on fights like Tortos (well, really, ONLY on Tortos) where I just stand there and take a constant amount of damage. Sometimes, I can get procs on procs, and stack up 8-10 seconds of coverage. Sometimes, I feel like I forgot to actually learn the talent. I have always, and will continue to swear by HA > all for it's reliability, DPS contribution, strength as a CD, duration, ability to be cheesed with mastery-trinkets, and even the fact that it allows you to "coast" for 30 seconds while basically not worrying about timing ShotR. HA on HC Sha of Fear is up for every other N+A phase (assuming tank swaps), which makes 50% of the tanking mindless and error-proof. Its DPS is also nothing to scoff at, and the fact that it comes WITH a powerful defensive CD is huge. On Phase 4 Iron Qon, popping HA (with wings) lets me burn through dogs upwards of 600k DPS, while running a cooldown that is stronger than GoAK. I just can't see losing it for anything else except a Patchwerk fight like Tortos.
Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-04-23 at 03:57 PM.
20k and counting...Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
The one difference is that if you choose the constant healing appropriately, such that it exceeds average throughput, your tank lives until he takes a big enough spike (or combination of smaller spikes in rapid succession). And the information that you get out of that is highly correlated to the magnitude and frequency of spikes the tank takes - the tank that lives longest in that sim is the one who either takes the smallest spikes or takes spikes least frequently. But spike magnitude and frequency is exactly the data my simulation provides already.
It's like a the baseball player hitting the 90+ mph pitch. Can an average person hit that pitch? No. Can a seasoned player who has seen that pitch many times before hit it? Yes. It takes perfect timing and bat placement for the batter to make proper contact with that pitch to hit it out of the park. Dare I say perfection (or at least damned close).
Perfect raiding... actually it is something that I think progression teams try to strive for. Progression raid teams are in the majors. Everyone is expected to act precisely when on the "gear-cusp" of that encounter. And with most spikes occuring and predictable times these can and usually are planned and handled.
One could extrapulate out the killing of a progression boss and compare that with the batter homerunning the fast pitch. Many things have to happen in a sequence of events for the desired outcome to occur. The outcome is not insurmountable nor are those conditions. And you could say gear equates to the size of the bat. Using a bigger bat probably makes the objective of hitting the ball easier. The bigger bat reduces the margin of error.
TLDR? Sim for perfection because it is applicable. Also I ramble.
Simply looking at the default approach of "his health is X, the pillar energy is Y, therefore we should platform swap" was invariably a mess, because we'd end up randomly overlapping annoying/dangerous abilities. Having to carefully thread abilities is much more interesting than watching health/power bars.
Another factor here is player skill. A skilled tank with skilled healers will need less effective health and less survivability to kill a boss than less skilled players do. I can believe that highly skilled players (i.e. those focusing on heroic modes, topping WoL etc) such as you and Firefly would feel invulnerable in 10 mans. But as a less skilled player (one who'll likely never see a heroic mode fight save Morchok), I don't recognise the feeling of invulnerability in 10 mans. I've dropped dead after an Elegon breath, after a dance + gas on Will, a second overwhelming assault on the blade lord etc. Sometimes it's me not hitting a CD; sometimes it's healer inattention; sometimes both. It doesn't happen often - they are mistakes - and are particularly rare once a boss is on farm. But experiences like this are why I wear two stamina trinkets in 10 man normal. I'm gearing to feel as invulnerable as I can be, but I'm not there yet.So it doesn't really surprise me that you find yourself nearly invulnerable in 10-man raiding, because the survivability threshold is lower in that format.
Last edited by econ21; 2013-04-23 at 08:58 PM.
I think what you touch about 10vs25 tanks having more reliable healing econ.
Is that under 'normal' circumstances aka only boss melee hits, a 10 tank can easily heal himself for 75% of the damage he takes. So when the damage spikes on him, say boss enters a phase where he deals 150% more damage, suddenly the healers have to heal 600% more than before, even though it is not high numbers it can catch unseasoned healers off guard. In 25 tanks require constant attention so healers are more prepared for the spikes.
I remember at the start of t14, we were using a pug healer, who was... Not bad, but mediocre at best. I was taking less damage than our warrior tank, on emperor normal that is, but during titan gases I died. Even though I was also healing myself more. The pug (druid) was assigned to me, we checked wol and during the normal phases I was healing myself for 85-95% of the damage I took. So he didnt have to heal me at all.
But then when titan gases came, my healing was not nearly enough (duh) and he forgot to heal me as he was used to me healing myself.
So the lower tank damage is both a blessing and a cursr for 10 tanks. But also why I feel (omg no statistical data) that the areas around the large damage phases are irrelevant from 10 tank pov.
And yes drumme, as I mentioned way back, I use math to back up logic, but in the end, logic>math for me, which is why 'I feel' is a completely relevant answer for me. As numbers can tell 1 thing but reality another. Math is great to get an understanding or tipping a scale, but in no way is it the sole determining factor.
---------- Post added 2013-04-24 at 12:33 AM ----------
Which again brings back to why I disagree in haste vs exp as i think that the way current math is modelled gives the reliability of expertise far greater value than reality, as in reality, as a tank, I am not even concerned about 80% of a fight since I know that even tanking boss with my back going to the kitchen making a toast, I wont die during those 80% of the fight, it is during the remainder 20% i can die. and for those 20% i am always prepared with 5 hopo regardless of parries in the 'non interesting' part of the fight.
Which gives exp far greater value than the reality (10 man reality? Not sure about 25, maybe entire fight is a danger then).
Also to mention not taking account for rppm procs and dps increase.
In my thoughts, thats a reasonable trade off.
Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-04-23 at 11:35 PM.
I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.
Can I ask this question here? I'm about to choose a meta legendary and of course I'd instantly go for the Stamina one as a Paladin tank (10man). I know this is frowned upon but I couldn't resist to check some armory's and see what the pro league players are doing. To my bewilderment Paragons Paladin tank is using the Crit/Capacitance gem?! I think I know half the answer and that is he has enough stats to just go all out dps mode and thus choosing the dps option gem. But let me get this straight, the crit aside since it does nothing for tanks (right?:s) from wowhead comments I see that the proc does: "When Capacitance reaches 5 charges, you will deal a Lightning Strike to your current target for 100 Nature damage." It doesn't look all that impressive to me when I read that (unless it stacks really really fast?). Any thoughts?
Last edited by Fnatick; 2013-04-24 at 01:46 PM.