1. #1981
    Quote Originally Posted by econ21 View Post
    I've dropped dead after an Elegon breath, after a dance + gas on Will, a second overwhelming assault on the blade lord etc. Sometimes it's me not hitting a CD; sometimes it's healer inattention; sometimes both.
    First don't take the term invulnerable too literally. All tanks die. That said I am told I'm less squishy then my tank partner because of things like HA, DP and the handful of other CD's and self saves I have.

    As far as like certain mechanics, the best way to handle those is watching spell timers that DBM puts up. You plan your CD's for these moments. Elegon's breath was a great example where DBM put up a timer for when the breath came off CD and you could make sure to have a CD available. And for Will Guardian worked very nicely for every gas. I will say Blade Lord was a prick in that assault wouldn't hit consistently based on the spell timer and you take an unmitigated 400K hit because you hit Shield 4 seconds too soon.

    Currently council (on farm) is still a pain to me because of our strategy. I tank all frost stacks and sometimes the healer nods off when I get frozen and then I'm eating ground. I hit my own CD before I freeze and even go as far to call out each healer CD on me to chain them but I still die once in a while. Since the fight is on farm we don't really want to change the strat (well I do because I'm so sick of dieing) but I guess me dieing is now part of the strat. :P

    As you pointed out though you could be the best skilled tank but if you don't have a skilled healer to keep you up then you're still going to die. Paladins can save themselves from at most 3 near death events (LoH, AD, and 5 stack WoG). Once used up if you still die though despite proper CD usage and self-saves then it's all on your healers.

    One difference between 10 and 25 is that in a 25 it is more likely to have a healer class variety where as with 10 you get 3 and its not unheard of to have 2 of those 3 being the same class. 10's are much more sensitive to raid make-up and that can vastly affect strategy as well. In your case it could be that because of your raid make-up tank healing isn't as inheritly strong so double-stam trinkets are necessary.

    All that said back to the avoidance thing, granted a dodge can save. Think though. You're relying on RNG to save you but look at how much it fails you when you miss when not capped or when you use your Mogu Rune. There is no way to know if RNG will help you when you need it, but you know keeping Shield up will help.

  2. #1982

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Fnatick View Post
    Can I ask this question here? I'm about to choose a meta legendary and of course I'd instantly go for the Stamina one as a Paladin tank (10man). I know this is frowned upon but I couldn't resist to check some armory's and see what the pro league players are doing. To my bewilderment Paragons Paladin tank is using the Crit/Capacitance gem?! I think I know half the answer and that is he has enough stats to just go all out dps mode and thus choosing the dps option gem. But let me get this straight, the crit aside since it does nothing for tanks (right?:s) from wowhead comments I see that the proc does: "When Capacitance reaches 5 charges, you will deal a Lightning Strike to your current target for 100 Nature damage." It doesn't look all that impressive to me when I read that (unless it stacks really really fast?). Any thoughts?
    First of all I don't believe gearing up as top end tanks do is the right way, as their group is undergear for the content they are doing. Requiring much more health or dps than casual guild's tanks do. They know the reason why they are doing it, but for some tanks that are mindlessly coping the top guild tanks, bigger chance it's a disaster than helpfull to gear the same way. All the top prot paladins in 10 man go for the dps gem, if I'm correct.

    also i believe the damage scale's with attack power. I have read in this thread that the gem is 11% dps increase.

    Beside this all, the stamina gems can proc at times when you don't need it. As firefly explains a couple of post back, 80% you don't die, for the other 20% you need use StoR or cd's. "Yeah I got a 10% less damage intake, but the boss is doing any noticable damage to me" /sarcasme.
    Last edited by Ansekh; 2013-04-24 at 03:04 PM.

  3. #1983
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnatick View Post
    Can I ask this question here? I'm about to choose a meta legendary and of course I'd instantly go for the Stamina one as a Paladin tank (10man). I know this is frowned upon but I couldn't resist to check some armory's and see what the pro league players are doing. To my bewilderment Paragons Paladin tank is using the Crit/Capacitance gem?! I think I know half the answer and that is he has enough stats to just go all out dps mode and thus choosing the dps option gem. But let me get this straight, the crit aside since it does nothing for tanks (right?:s) from wowhead comments I see that the proc does: "When Capacitance reaches 5 charges, you will deal a Lightning Strike to your current target for 100 Nature damage." It doesn't look all that impressive to me when I read that (unless it stacks really really fast?). Any thoughts?
    As with all the Legendary Metas, the difference it makes is absolutely huge, and in our case the DPS meta scales incredibly well with Haste stacking (if you're already doing that) and as such you'll see a crazy DPS increase (around 10% is the average reported) which comparatively to the tank meta, is pretty much a no brainer

  4. #1984
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansekh View Post
    First of all I don't believe gearing up as top end tanks do is the right way, as their group is undergear for the content they are doing. Requiring much more health or dps than casual guild's tanks do. They know the reason why they are doing it, but for some tanks that are mindlessly coping the top guild tanks, bigger chance it's a disaster than helpfull to gear the same way. All the top prot paladins in 10 man go for the dps gem, if I'm correct.

    also i believe the damage scale's with attack power. I have read in this thread that the gem is 11% dps increase.

    Beside this all, the stamina gems can proc at times when you don't need it. As firefly explains a couple of post back, 80% you don't die, for the other 20% you need use StoR or cd's. "Yeah I got a 10% less damage intake, but the boss is doing any noticable damage to me" /sarcasme.
    Here's log from our 25man Horridon Normal kill tonight. We're fairly slow on progression (1/12H) since we raid only 10 hours/week, but you can see that dps meta is really shining.
    It made up a whooping 12.5% of my damage.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4182&e=4763
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 90 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU
    Raiding 25man, 10hrs/week, 12/14H.

  5. #1985
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    All that said back to the avoidance thing, granted a dodge can save. Think though. You're relying on RNG to save you but look at how much it fails you when you miss when not capped or when you use your Mogu Rune. There is no way to know if RNG will help you when you need it, but you know keeping Shield up will help.
    Absolutely, no disagreement there. I reforge all the avoidance away that I can and try to keep my shield up when I need it. It's just I think the "avoidance = RNG = 0" argument is over done.

    In my experience, raid wipes due to tank deaths often feel like bad RNG. You make a mistake, or your healers do. On 10 normal, being well geared, you#ll usually be ok even with such mistakes. You've got a sizable buffer of hit points and two healers with mana who should be able to rescue you. Yet bad stuff happens, so sometimes you die. And when you die there's that disappointed sound of surprise over Ventrilo or Teamspeak "oh look, the main tank's dead, wipe it...". You got caught out for the mistake this time. The combat rez has already been used. The raid leader says: "Unlucky. Let's do it again and focus more this time."

    Having a bit more stamina reduces such bad RNG a little. Statistically a bit more avoidance might too. A little bit of good RNG might offset the bad RNG. The fact that avoidance relies on RNG is a disadvantage but doesn't mean it should be dismissed completely. Ask a bear or a brewmaster about their active mitigation. Remember why we wanted Moros' pocketwatch to drop in Karazhan. The effects will be small, but when we are considering gear upgrades, the effects even of the best stats are incremental and small. The benefits of avoidance will be smaller than other more reliable, survivability stats, no disagreement there. Small but not zero, is all I was trying to say.

    There is a trade off between a little more survivability or more dps. Skilled tanks will need less surivability to clear any particular content. On normal modes and/or 10 mans, they'll often trade a little survivability for a lot of dps. (Although it's interesting with ToT to see an increasing number favor survivability for heroic modes and/or 25 mans.) However as a slowly progressing tank, I think I'm probably better advised to err on the safe side. My reasoning is that by going all out for survivability, I give the raid more chance to learn the encounter. We're not pushing the envelope - we should progress if we get the dance right.

    One feature of being a slowly progressing guild is probably that we do things slow: raid just once a week, often kill a later boss months after others have it on farm, but with relatively few attempts. So it's good to try to make those limited attempts count - after a couple of weeks wiping on the same boss, there's a real risk of signups slipping and not being able to field 10 people the next week.

    If there's an Ultraxion type fight with a dps check that bites on normal, then sure I would try to maximise dps for the minimum necessary survivability. But Blizzard have decided against such checks in normal. Just look at Jin'rokh live compared to on the ptr - by all reports he was a dps check for 502 geared raids on the ptr but when he was brought to live, his hitpoints were cut by a third. Instead normal fights are more about everyone executing their roles well. The fewer sounds of sad disappointment that I hear directed at me over my microphone, the better.

  6. #1986
    While I can see some of your points here, I'd be remiss if I didn't comment on the monk/bear points, as well as the BC gearing strategies:

    Leather tanks, for better or worse, have always been the innately higher "avoidance" tanks due to the nature of dodge. It was not until Cata tha STR provided any real benefit to tanks, other than damage. Yes, through BC there was a [terrible] conversion ratio of STR:Block Value, but with the removal of block value items (which I am still mad about!) that faded away. Likewise at this time, there was no such thing as Mastery or any of the fancy AM items we have today. Warriors had Shield Block (albeit very different), and Paladins had "stand there and get hit for mana" tanking. D/P was the only thing TO get; not making it good, just making it all there was. And even then, stamina was still better.

    Now, I'm not trying to compare the "good ol days" to now, just saying that you CAN'T compare them. Monks and druids now still DO focus on avoidance (via gearing innately and by AM tools), but they have the supporting cast of toolkits to prop up this "less reliable" method. 1) Their avoidance levels are nearly an order of magnitude higher than ours, removing a lot of the RNG by placing avoid chance in the majority, rather than minority. 2) They have other, reliable passives (Stagger for monks, huge armor and magic redux for bears) that prop up the times that RNG DOES strike. And guess what; they STILL get flattened occasionally due to bad streaks.

    I'm not saying that avoidance is a bad stat, or that it will make you less likely to survive. Of course, 1% more chance to parry means that you can completely avoid an attack, less damage taken, looks good on paper. The issue is that we're designed as stable tanks; we don't take the least amount of damage overall, but we take the lowest variance, which is pure gold to healers. Things that reduce that variance like haste, mastery, and accuracy will obviously be better than things that jeopardize stability for potentially more TDR (avoidance). That alone should be enough reason to avoid avoidance, since any stat allocations you have in the avoidance category will be directly related to less allocation to haste/mast/acc.

    So am I saying avoidance is garbage? No. I still have one piece of dodge/parry gear, simply because it's ilvl is so much ahead that it made no sense NOT to use it. I'd suggest that anyone else in a similar situation (<522 haste piece vs 535+ D/P piece) make the same choice, or at least give it consideration. Additionally, I'm using my 2 DPS trinkets that provide large STR buffs in part BECAUSE of the avoidance they give. However, this is due in large part to the massive bolus of avoidance given during proc. ~8500 and ~18000 STR procs mean large amounts of parry (for free) that ARE noticeable. Using these proc's as mini-cooldowns allows me to even change my normal cooldown use sometimes (thanks to haste/RPPM interactions, the uptime on these for prot is quite high and pretty reliable).

    All of that is to lead me to my last point on this, which is that whether everyone likes it/agrees or not, tank DPS does matter in 10m. It matters a lot. Normal or heroic, a good tank can pull equal to or higher than a lot of DPS, when played appropriately. Key word here, though, is good; if you're not experienced or familiar enough, you'll just be a sponge/corpse. But once you are familiar, you become even more fundamental to raid success. I regularly rank on WOL on pretty much any fight in the top 50 (not bragging, just reference), and finish in the top 3-4 on damage in our 10man. I'm also between 1-4 on healing, with the way that our damage and haste scale with our self/raid heals.

    Those contributions allow us to drop a healer (or gain a healer, depending on need) to alter strats or bypass a challenging part of the encounter, FAR more than any amount of stamina or avoidance ever could.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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  7. #1987
    Quote Originally Posted by econ21 View Post
    There is a trade off between a little more survivability or more dps. Skilled tanks will need less surivability to clear any particular content. On normal modes and/or 10 mans, they'll often trade a little survivability for a lot of dps. (Although it's interesting with ToT to see an increasing number favor survivability for heroic modes and/or 25 mans.) However as a slowly progressing tank, I think I'm probably better advised to err on the safe side. My reasoning is that by going all out for survivability, I give the raid more chance to learn the encounter. We're not pushing the envelope - we should progress if we get the dance right.
    I think you're missing that Haste/Control and Mastery/Control is about controlling your survivability, not having more dps (that's just a perk). More haste = more HoPo = more shield uptime. The rest is icing.

    And I don't know about the generalization of trading survival for dps in 25, especially since I raid 10. All I know is when I have Holy Avenger and all my CD's ready and I have to tank the boss for the next minute, that boss better bring all he's got (other than freezing me) or the healers will be spending very little.

    I will say this. If you are hearing "bad sounds" over vent because you died then check all your CD's. Did you miss using one and the hit that killed you was predictable? Then you probably could have done something to stay alive. Otherwise talk to your healers and find out why they're struggling to keep you up.

  8. #1988
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    I will say this. If you are hearing "bad sounds" over vent because you died then check all your CD's. Did you miss using one and the hit that killed you was predictable? Then you probably could have done something to stay alive. Otherwise talk to your healers and find out why they're struggling to keep you up.
    A good point; outside of standing in 1-shot mechanics like Durumu beams or LeiShen decaps at 0yards, normal 10mans really have no imminent danger to the tank. Especially a prot paladin, assuming at least a modicum of timing in using ShotR. If you macro ShotR to CS or something, I can see you having issues, but by and large if you are using it around the big hits (Trip Punc, Snap Bite, Talon Rake, etc) you should have no issues. Additionally, your self healing should be about even with (or greather than) the healers healing on you. Prot's are perhaps the most self sufficient tank, allowing the healers to focus on the raid rather than tank damage.

    If you died despite having ShotR and/or CD's up, like getting whittled down over 8-10 seconds, that's not your fault at all.

    If you died on JiKun cause you had about 6 too many beers during trash and ate a second talon rake without ShotR after a pushback...that may be your fault.

    Not that I'd know anything about that...
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  9. #1989
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I regularly rank on WOL on pretty much any fight in the top 50 (not bragging, just reference), and finish in the top 3-4 on damage in our 10man. I'm also between 1-4 on healing, with the way that our damage and haste scale with our self/raid heals.

    Those contributions allow us to drop a healer (or gain a healer, depending on need) to alter strats or bypass a challenging part of the encounter, FAR more than any amount of stamina or avoidance ever could.
    Yeah, good points. But while you wouldn't rank on WoL, you might still be high up in your raid group for damage and healing even if you favored stamina above haste. It's just how good protection paladins are now, at least on some fights.

    For example, if I were to gem and trinket for haste rather than follow theck's control/haste weights in AMR, which favor stamina, then I would lose about 9% health and gain 8% haste. So my dps would be roughly 8% higher. So raid dps would be about 1% higher. That wouldn't allow my raid to drop or gain a healer, or even bypass mechanics.

    For an experienced raid team, going for the dps can make sense. But so long as my deaths cause a wipes, I'm inclined to play it safe. As I said, my focus is on staying up long enough for us to learn the fight - if we hit an enrage, then I'd start to rethink.

  10. #1990
    I guess, but if you're not having trouble staying alive at the moment, adding more survival has a net benefit of zero whereas haste has constantly increasing benefits to both damage and healing output (up to 50% anyway).

    But yes, if you ARE having trouble staying alive, this is clearly not the advocated method of gearing (for now).

    Not to nitpick about %'s though...but I'm going to. 8% haste in your example is actuall more than 8% dps increase, in practice. It's 8% more melee damage, for sure, but the effect on things via SoB yields higher returns, since HoPo generation goes up (as well as HoPo spending, via ShotR), CD goes down, and items that function off of RPPM (like trinkets, meta gem) increase with haste. Synergistically, youre looking more at 10-12% damage increase for that 8% (as well as associated healing and ShotR uptime). Further, I'm usually ~12-15% of the raid's damage, so upping that is more on the lines of 1.5% overall damage for the RAID, by swapping gems. Certainly hefty for 9% less stam, if you can afford to.

    Will that 8% haste change allow you to drop a healer every time? Nah, probably not. But, it may/will allow you to push a breakpoint that you couldnt before, like 2 breaths per head on Meg instead of 3, 1 windstorm on IQ instead of 2, etc.

    But again, if you can't stay up, this doesn't really matter
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  11. #1991
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    I will say this. If you are hearing "bad sounds" over vent because you died then check all your CD's. Did you miss using one and the hit that killed you was predictable? Then you probably could have done something to stay alive. Otherwise talk to your healers and find out why they're struggling to keep you up.
    No disagreement there, recall the premise of my argument:

    Quote Originally Posted by econ21
    In my experience, raid wipes due to tank deaths often feel like bad RNG.You make a mistake, or your healers do.
    We die when we make mistakes. If you and your healers play flawlessly, then you'll kill the boss. That's how the game's tuned. If you play flawlessly, you can kill the boss in rubbish gear. You can even kill the boss if you make quite a lot of mistakes. That's why I said it feels like bad RNG. It's not purely bad RNG. You did a bad thing - you made a mistake. But this time, you were unlucky and got caught out for it.

    All raid teams wipe and they wipe repeatedly - they wipe while learning the fight. And the process of learning the fight inevitably involves making mistakes. You gear for progression, in the knowledge that people will make mistakes. Gearing for perfect play is like gearing for farm content - rather irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    I think you're missing that Haste/Control and Mastery/Control is about controlling your survivability, not having more dps (that's just a perk).
    I follow the haste/control gearing but with the AMR/theck weights that prioritize stamina over haste. I suspect stamina is the bigger boost to survivability than haste. (Theck's sims imply bigger by a considerable factor, perhaps 5:1 in his latest sims.)

  12. #1992
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    To reiterate the point: whilst stamina may be the best survivability stat, it certainly becomes a waste after a certain threshold, particularly in a 10 man environ. THe tricky bit is determining what that level is for the encounter. On the flip side, haste is never wasted.

    It is, and always will be, finding the right balance for you, your healers and your raid.
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  13. #1993
    Has anyone else experienced ji-kun's rising winds acting the same as ardent defender? I am 100% certain of one instance where it brought me back from the dead so I suspect that it wasn't the first/only time.

    we didn't log when it happened sadly but on heroic horridon it was like:

    horridon hits you for 500,000, (50,000) absorbed, (5000) overkill.
    ji-kun rising wind's heals you for 40,000.

    I then went on to live for about 30 seconds before I died for real anyway.

    if it works like AD it's definitely the best trinket choice.

  14. #1994
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Not to nitpick about %'s though...but I'm going to. 8% haste in your example is actuall more than 8% dps increase, in practice. It's 8% more melee damage, for sure, but the effect on things via SoB yields higher returns, since HoPo generation goes up (as well as HoPo spending, via ShotR), CD goes down, and items that function off of RPPM (like trinkets, meta gem) increase with haste. Synergistically, youre looking more at 10-12% damage increase for that 8% (as well as associated healing and ShotR uptime). Further, I'm usually ~12-15% of the raid's damage, so upping that is more on the lines of 1.5% overall damage for the RAID, by swapping gems. Certainly hefty for 9% less stam, if you can afford to.
    That math looks awfully suspect.

    First, 8% haste is actually a fairly linear increase. It's a little more than an 8% increase to melee swing damage because of the multiplicative 10% melee attack speed buff. However an 8% haste increase is an 8% increase for SoB, which translates to 8% more ability usage, which means it should be exactly 8% more DPS, including SotR (because that will go up exactly 8% as well thanks to 8% more holy power generation). The increase to RPPM effects will also be about 8% uptime, which will give a (very) small nonlinearity, but it's small enough that we can safely ignore it.

    So while melee DPS will go up by ~8.8%, ability DPS will go up exactly 8%. I can test this in my MATLAB DPS sims. Going from a sample set that has 6.35% haste to one that has 14.86% haste (an 8% increase, 1.0635*1.08=1.1486) brings us up from 99928 to 107881 DPS, an incease of 7953, or 7953/99928=7.96%.

    Second, that's a multiplicative 8% haste. But adding 8% haste from rating is a linear increase. Going from 22% to 30% haste is an increase of 8%, but it's only a ~6.6% DPS increase (1.30/1.22=1.0656, or 6.56%).

    So in fact, increasing your haste by 8% in the traditional sense (i.e. linearly, via +8% haste rating) is identically less than an 8% DPS increase unless you're starting with 0% haste.

  15. #1995
    Quote Originally Posted by Theck View Post
    So in fact, increasing your haste by 8% in the traditional sense (i.e. linearly, via +8% haste rating) is identically less than an 8% DPS increase unless you're starting with 0% haste.

    Speaking of prot DPS, if we completely ignore the survivability aspect is there any kind of stat weight list (or an article of yours that you can refer me to) strictly for prot DPS? How do the other stats hold against haste in this scenario?

  16. #1996
    Quote Originally Posted by youlowgee View Post
    Has anyone else experienced ji-kun's rising winds acting the same as ardent defender? I am 100% certain of one instance where it brought me back from the dead so I suspect that it wasn't the first/only time.

    we didn't log when it happened sadly but on heroic horridon it was like:

    horridon hits you for 500,000, (50,000) absorbed, (5000) overkill.
    ji-kun rising wind's heals you for 40,000.

    I then went on to live for about 30 seconds before I died for real anyway.

    if it works like AD it's definitely the best trinket choice.
    Never have I once seen that, ever. In fact, it's been exactly the opposite, wherein if an attack took me from 31% to dead, it didn't proc at all. Which is why I benched it. If you an try and replicate it, that'd be awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theck View Post
    That math looks awfully suspect.

    So in fact, increasing your haste by 8% in the traditional sense (i.e. linearly, via +8% haste rating) is identically less than an 8% DPS increase unless you're starting with 0% haste.
    Interesting, so is that 8%:7.96% a linear rule too then? I guess I was trying too hard to factor in ability weights in damage contribution based on normal glyphs and breakdowns, and accounted for ShotR twice via SOB. Which, consequently, would give a ~12% increase (or 50% over the 8% you're simming).

    Oops. Good catch.

    I will still swear by it as nonlinear for RPPM purposes, esp given the nature of my gear choices (for DPS as prot).
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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  17. #1997
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Interesting, so is that 8%:7.96% a linear rule too then? I guess I was trying too hard to factor in ability weights in damage contribution based on normal glyphs and breakdowns, and accounted for ShotR twice via SOB. Which, consequently, would give a ~12% increase (or 50% over the 8% you're simming).

    Oops. Good catch.

    I will still swear by it as nonlinear for RPPM purposes, esp given the nature of my gear choices (for DPS as prot).
    The 8%:7.96% is just rounding/discretization error. That's around the error limit of the FSM code. The point is that if you multiply your haste by a factor of 1.08 (8%), your DPS goes up by a factor of 1.08 (8%). But increasing your haste percentage doesn't work the same way, as it's a linear measure. If you increase your haste from 0% (1.00) to 8% (1.08), you get an 8% increase in DPS. But going from 8% to 16% (1.08 to 1.16) is a smaller increase, and it naturally diminishes as you go further.

    RPPM effects are nonlinear, but very very weakly so. Remember that haste is included in the RPPM calculation specifically because the proc triggers are haste-normalized (i.e., attacking twice as fast does not grant you any more procs, on average). It doesn't double-dip.

  18. #1998
    On the topic of nonlinear rppm and haste:
    Does anyone have any input on whether the agi trinket from primordius is good for prot?
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  19. #1999
    Quote Originally Posted by Meanor View Post
    Speaking of prot DPS, if we completely ignore the survivability aspect is there any kind of stat weight list (or an article of yours that you can refer me to) strictly for prot DPS? How do the other stats hold against haste in this scenario?
    It's all in Theck's matlab thread on maintankadin.com:

    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...hp?f=6&t=32805

    Specifically, look at section #6 on stat weights. Most of the survivability calculations and discussion is on Sacred Duty, but the matlab thread has the dps calculations and stat weights stuff.

  20. #2000
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    On the topic of nonlinear rppm and haste:
    Does anyone have any input on whether the agi trinket from primordius is good for prot?
    unlikely. the AGI is pretty much wasted (we no longer get dodge from it, we don't get armor from it anymore and the crit is just a minor DPS increase), and the haste has 3.3 RPPM. players are reporting a very low uptime of high stack counts. it's unreliable: you don't know when you're going to have it, you don't know how much you're going to have, and you don't know how long you're going to have it. for tanks, reliability is everything: if something is unreliable, at best it's going to proc when you don't need it. at worst it won't proc when you need it to survive.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 04:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Theck View Post
    The 8%:7.96% is just rounding/discretization error. That's around the error limit of the FSM code. The point is that if you multiply your haste by a factor of 1.08 (8%), your DPS goes up by a factor of 1.08 (8%). But increasing your haste percentage doesn't work the same way, as it's a linear measure. If you increase your haste from 0% (1.00) to 8% (1.08), you get an 8% increase in DPS. But going from 8% to 16% (1.08 to 1.16) is a smaller increase, and it naturally diminishes as you go further.

    RPPM effects are nonlinear, but very very weakly so. Remember that haste is included in the RPPM calculation specifically because the proc triggers are haste-normalized (i.e., attacking twice as fast does not grant you any more procs, on average). It doesn't double-dip.
    for the sake of clarity, could you sim a 40% haste increase from 1.00 to 1.40 in 8% increments to see how it affects both survival and DPS? just account for rating, since no pure haste buffs are always up. or if you don't have time, how could I do that myself?
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

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