1. #2221
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    This change actually devalues mastery relative to haste, even further than it already was.
    What's your reasoning here? Are you talking about survivability? Because lowering the survivability benefit of sotr, lowers one survivability benefit value of haste but leaves mastery untouched. Hence, it increases the value of mastery relative to haste (not enough to change gearing priority, I agree).



    On a completely different topic, I noticed you and Firefly talking about the benefits of holy prism. How do you use it? I gather from a tank dps perspective, it's the lowest priority move in our rotation and I tend not to notice gaps in my rotation (unlike ret, where there's often a space to use it), so I am not sure how much use it would see. If so, what's the attraction of holy prism? Is it for solo healing? For raid healing? For AOE? Or am I missing something. (Not being argumentative here, just curious).

    In practice, how do you use holy prism in your rotation? Or do you just use it situationally? One thing I like about the two rival talents is that their CDs are so long, they don't really interfere with your rotation or require too much attention during the chaos of a fight.

  2. #2222
    Quote Originally Posted by econ21 View Post
    What's your reasoning here? Are you talking about survivability? Because lowering the survivability benefit of sotr, lowers one survivability benefit value of haste but leaves mastery untouched. Hence, it increases the value of mastery relative to haste (not enough to change gearing priority, I agree).
    Basically, from a pure survival standpoint, if you have 500 points to allocate to a secondary, you're better off going with Haste. This isn't news to anyone. The baseline values of mastery being decreased make it so that you actuall fare better putting excess points that CANNOT go into Haste into Stamina (instead of Mastery) now. Clearly, this really only applies to trinkets, given the color of haste/mast and stam, and the reforge opportunities. In terms of Mastery's relative value to itself, it has increased (by nature of lowering the starting point) such that each extra point of Mast now gives more relative DR per point than the last, but the fact that it was bumped down by ~3000 deflates its value versus any other option significantly.

    More math here (and no, I'm not saying blindly follow the blog, but this matter is insightful). At the end of the day, though, it still doesn't change much/anything.

    On a completely different topic, I noticed you and Firefly talking about the benefits of holy prism. How do you use it? I gather from a tank dps perspective, it's the lowest priority move in our rotation and I tend not to notice gaps in my rotation (unlike ret, where there's often a space to use it), so I am not sure how much use it would see. If so, what's the attraction of holy prism? Is it for solo healing? For raid healing? For AOE? Or am I missing something. (Not being argumentative here, just curious).

    In practice, how do you use holy prism in your rotation? Or do you just use it situationally? One thing I like about the two rival talents is that their CDs are so long, they don't really interfere with your rotation or require too much attention during the chaos of a fight.
    I use Prism on pretty much every fight this tier except 1) HC Council and 2) HC Megaera. Both of these fights I use LH instead (to cleave and counter Blanka-electrocute on council, and to heal like a mo-fo on Meg).

    Prism has:
    Low cooldown, with a spell-hasted GCD (making mine 1.1 sec vs 1.5 on LH/ES, which feels like an eterrrrnity).
    Dynamic effect that doesn't require clumping of raid for benefit of healing.
    Long range healing (40 yard range, with a 40 yard range on splash means I can hit an ally on the other side of the map almost) that moves with me/the target.
    Option to burst heal me and splash AOE damage OR nuke the boss (for a moderate amount) and heal 5 allies instantly.
    The burst nature: timing of HP after a raid-wide nuke usually nets me almost 1mil heal instantly.

    I use HP pretty much on CD, UNLESS there is an upcoming period of time where I will need to help heal. Things like Durumu during the Colorblind phase, I'll hold if a healer is running around. Things like Iron Qon fire dog, I'll hold for after a nuke. Things like Jinrohk, I'll hold for ionization. I never have to worry about proper placement of it (like LH), nor waste the 1-2 GCDs worth of time to cast and place it with the reticule (and the sloooow GCD of the spell)...only to have to move 3 seconds later.

    It's lower on the dmg side of our abilities, but given its utility, you'll find yourself using it a lot.
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  3. #2223
    Quote Originally Posted by econ21 View Post
    What's your reasoning here? Are you talking about survivability? Because lowering the survivability benefit of sotr, lowers one survivability benefit value of haste but leaves mastery untouched. Hence, it increases the value of mastery relative to haste (not enough to change gearing priority, I agree).
    First lets look at it theoretically. Think of the statement Quality over quantity and vice versa.

    Mastery in essence, is about quality, having strong SotR.
    Haste is about quantity, having several smaller SotR.

    Reducing the quality affects mastery more, since mastery is about quality, haste is about the quantity. Regardless of lowering the quality, you will still get the same quantity. This is why the nerf affects mastery more than haste since it does not affect the core of haste while it does affect the core of mastery. Haste still accomplish the goal of getting high uptime, it does not really matter if the reduction is 50% or 45%, it is a bigger deal if you stack mastery and the reduction is 75% or 70%. Add on top of that haste scales with SoI, SS and DPS which is unaffected by the change. So that means that the change affected a smaller part of the haste than mastery.

    Now to apply a little napkin math to that.

    Say you have 20% haste with 50% SotR reduction. You get off 120 SotR in a period of time each covering 2 boss swings that deals 100k damage each after all armor. You would reduce 100k*0.5*120 or 6M damage. If you lower that damage reduction to 45% instead 5.4M or 10% less.

    If you instead switch all that haste into mastery, now that presumes you live in a heavnly world where getting more mastery does not involve getting more dodge/parry + mastery pieces. You would get off 100 SotR in the same period of time each reducing 64.16% damage.

    You would reduce 100*0.6416*100 or 6.416M damage. With the nerf you would instead reduce 59.16% damage, equaling out to 5.916M damage 8% less damage. So looking at it from a pure TDR perspective, the nerf is bigger for haste than mastery. Though you have to remember that the strength in mastery is reducing those high damage spikes which means in reality the nerf is much larger than 8% for mastery. Since mastery have a higher effective uptime on those large damage spikes causing it to get an artificially bigger nerf.

    What you also have to remember is as I mentioned earlier, SotR reduction is 95% of what mastery is about. The block is kinda irrelvant. For haste, SotR reduction is only 25% (pulling number out of my ass) of what makes haste strong. Haste still gets the benefit on SS, SoI, DPS and SotR uptime disregarding of a nerf to SotR. So a 10% nerf on 25% is much smaller than an 8% (in reality bigger) nerf on 95%.

    Something also to consider is that, haste is a multi-stat. It has several benefits. Mastery is 100% survivability. Stamina is also 100% survivability. This change upvalued stamina even further in comparison to mastery. Making it more undesirable in comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by econ21 View Post
    On a completely different topic, I noticed you and Firefly talking about the benefits of holy prism. How do you use it? I gather from a tank dps perspective, it's the lowest priority move in our rotation and I tend not to notice gaps in my rotation (unlike ret, where there's often a space to use it), so I am not sure how much use it would see. If so, what's the attraction of holy prism? Is it for solo healing? For raid healing? For AOE? Or am I missing something. (Not being argumentative here, just curious).

    In practice, how do you use holy prism in your rotation? Or do you just use it situationally? One thing I like about the two rival talents is that their CDs are so long, they don't really interfere with your rotation or require too much attention during the chaos of a fight.
    I am gonna be completely honest here, I do not like holy prism that much, since I am so used to the T6 talents. I probably should use it more than I have, but the reality is that I never use it. I can however step back and look at the wider picture and realise why others would use it. Just like you I like the long CDs.

    Holy prism got a few benefits.

    1. It is a frequent burst heal making it stronger for healing purposes than LH for those fight without obvious stacking points, like Megaera, ofc LH is beast there, but on a fight like Durumu or Primordius, LH does not really do much. In short, it is the best choice for raid healing on those fights where you cant use LH properly.

    2. The fact that HP's GCD scales with haste makes it more attractive as the tier progresses. The more haste you get the more awkward using LH/ES becomes.

    3. The short GCD actually helps it when off tanking since you are gonna have a lot of free GCDs then, so for those 2 tank fights it works kinda nice.

    I still find myself using ES/LH on almost every fight. Though will probably start expermenting with HP more.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-05-23 at 08:50 PM.
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  4. #2224
    Thanks for the insights into Holy Prism - I'm going to try it. I already use it as my default setup as ret, as it's a useful ranged option for pvp. As a tank, the healing sounds interesting especially since I've become something of a reluctant convert to "heal tanking" following MoP, with seal of insight, sacred shield, battle healer etc.

    Another completely unrelated question: is there any way to reset your stacks of fan of flames as a solotank on Twin Consorts? On LFR today, we did not have a second tank and it seemed to me as if my Divine Shield cleared the stack but Hand of Protection did not. But I can't see why one bubble would work and another not, so I am not sure.

  5. #2225
    Stacks are magical. BoP should not work on that. I also found that on 10 stacks he will use fan of flames on a random target instead of the tank. Not sure if intended or was just a bug happened twice in a row at 10 stacks (after which my stacks resetted)

    I just stand in the ice comets so I do not bother resetting the stacks.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #2226
    If healers are complaining about damage being spiky, wouldn't mastery become slightly better than haste? I imagine a fight with a lot of constant damage would be great for more haste and less mastery but what about a fight with big spikes and little damage in between?

  7. #2227
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    with more mastery and less haste you are even more spikey, because you have less uptime of ShoTR, but when you have it up you get less damage.

    with more haste, you get a bit more damage when you have it up, but the uptime is higher. so more haste, less spikey.

  8. #2228
    Quote Originally Posted by ElChig View Post
    If healers are complaining about damage being spiky, wouldn't mastery become slightly better than haste? I imagine a fight with a lot of constant damage would be great for more haste and less mastery but what about a fight with big spikes and little damage in between?
    Depends how the fight is designed but in most cases yes. This however requires you to be very skilled with your SotR usage, a lot of the reason why I said earlier that I think there is a higher 'skill cap' with mastery build than haste build.

    Though you are completely correct.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #2229
    Quote Originally Posted by ElChig View Post
    If healers are complaining about damage being spiky, wouldn't mastery become slightly better than haste? I imagine a fight with a lot of constant damage would be great for more haste and less mastery but what about a fight with big spikes and little damage in between?
    Ehhh. It'd be very hard to say this is a stat allocation problem without tearing apart logs.

    MOST of what contributes to a paladin being "spiky" in this tier is poor use/timing of ShotR. Even after the 5% nerf, we are still stronk with ShotR up with just BoMight. The ONLY time we really dip hard is if we fail to cover a large, telegraphed spike with a ShotR (i.e. Snapping Bite, Trip Punc, Hard Stare, Talon Rake, etc.). Even in 25s, you'd have a hard time being burst/whittled down by melee, 10s is laughable melee. If you're not timing your ShotR well, you WILL look and be spiky.

    There is no "Sha caveat" this tier where mastery is supreme; you can survive every mechanic with little-to-no additional mastery, even after the 5% nerf, so stacking on extra Mast will not help if the problem lies in the timing. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it could/will make it worse (by lowering your quantity of ShotRs, via robbing you of potential haste).

    Now, if you're playing well, with high ShotR uptime (and more importantly, high EFFECTIVE uptime/coverage) and are still getting bursted/spiked hard, that's a whole other issue. But you're asking about a high constant damage situation which, to me, indicates a fight like Horridon (for example) where the melee is threatening, but the BIG spike-maker is the "nuke" (Trip Punc and/or Dire Call) that can and should be ShotR'd 100% of the time. In that case, more mastery won't help. Neither will more haste...you just need more "timing".
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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  10. #2230
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Depends how the fight is designed but in most cases yes. This however requires you to be very skilled with your SotR usage, a lot of the reason why I said earlier that I think there is a higher 'skill cap' with mastery build than haste build.

    Though you are completely correct.
    I would actually argue against that.
    Mastery has a higher skill cap if you're going simply for the most "dmg mitigation"
    If you're going for the most "performance" haste would be at least on the same level.

    Why ?
    Because you're rotation goes from cs > judgement > fillers to : get enough HoP's to mitigate the damage that would kill you > fillers > extra hop.
    While you do have a faster HoP generation, on a lot of fights, you don't really need it. You just need the SotR to mitigate the big hits (if any) or to use right before + after (banking 5 HoPs, using fillers till right before, and then having at least 2 hop's from judgement / cs) together giving you ~9 sec of good dmg mitigation without sacrificing the dps.

  11. #2231
    He means the Mastery build is reliant on you hitting those ShotR when they're needed, where as with the Haste build you have a lot more margin to either have the buff up or have 2-3 HP when the boss starts to wind up their big ability

  12. #2232
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    He means the Mastery build is reliant on you hitting those ShotR when they're needed, where as with the Haste build you have a lot more margin to either have the buff up or have 2-3 HP when the boss starts to wind up their big ability
    You still have the same importance, only difference being that you can generate it faster. Which means that you might not need to plan it as far ahead as mastery, but then you're maximizing performance.

  13. #2233
    Hi, I'm a recently switched-to-prot, former Ret.
    I was wondering if I should buy the pandashan 489 stamina trinket (or buy the darkmoon card but the /use dodge is pretty much useless) since I will be solo tanking Iron qon HC 10man tomorrow.

    Is my stamina enough assuming I manage my CDs correctly, or do I really lack stam because of my 2 dps trinkets ?


    armory here : http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...gneur/advanced


    My 2nd question is : is it possible to "solo" tank horridon (stay on boss) even if I am the only paladin in the raid using US or clemency ?

    Thanks in advance

  14. #2234
    Question 1: Yes, you got more than enough hp even with 0 stamian trinkets on.

    Question 2: Yes. I prefer US. DS after second door, DS after Fourth, BoP when war god dies.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #2235
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Question 1: Yes, you got more than enough hp even with 0 stamian trinkets on.

    Question 2: Yes. I prefer US. DS after second door, DS after Fourth, BoP when war god dies.
    Dat speed

    Okay thanks, I was afraid I'd need to cancel debuffs on horridon after each gate, but seems I was wrong to fear... the light will protect me then
    I'd have prefered to use DS also thanks to the reduced Dprot rather than a double hand not so useful.

    I'll regem my STR/haste gems to expertise/haste so that I gain a good chunk of mastery and enchant my chest to stamina also.
    If there is anything on my gear that scares the hell out of you, please tell me

    EDIT : changes made, won 1k haste and 500 mastery
    Last edited by metasaigneur; 2013-05-26 at 05:39 PM.

  16. #2236
    My personal prefference is mastery on shield and haste on boots. I do not think run speed is that useful on boots. But that is just me.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #2237
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    My personal prefference is mastery on shield and haste on boots. I do not think run speed is that useful on boots. But that is just me.
    You might need speed on boots for heroic Ji-Kun because some of the nests you won't reach by just jumping off unless you have the enchant or you use a speed boost.

    Speaking of Heroic Ji-Kun, we've been progressing on him on heroic 10 man recently and I get hit like a truck! The other tank is a druid bear and he can soak pools while tanking the boss without dieing and hes in similar gear as me yet, I end up dieing or having really close calls without even trying to soak pools at the same time lol

    Anyone got any tips that might help? I only go onto two nests and we taunt off each other at two talons rake debuffs and I try to time it so I have SotR up for when talon rake hits and on the last pull of the night I gave Hand of Purity as try and that seemed to help but that may just be my imagination...

    One last thing I also got Fabled Feather of Ji-Kun today on normal and I currently have a fully upgraded normal spark (obviously gunna keep that) and a Brutal Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault (not sure which is better), anyone have any idea which is better or if theres not a lot of difference between them? Im only going to the expertise soft cap so expertise isn't a huge problem

  18. #2238
    Well, thats what the tier 1 talents are for. You can get to all nests without boot enchant.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #2239
    Soaking pools on 10H Ji-Kun is mostly a waste of time and just extra stress on healers. If your dps is any good, you'll kill the boss long before pools become a problem.

    For Talon rake, just make sure you have ShotR up and you should be able to have glyphed DivProt up for the 2nd Talon Rake. If you need to take a third, you can guardian, AD or ask for an external.

  20. #2240
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Well, thats what the tier 1 talents are for. You can get to all nests without boot enchant.
    Jumping down to nest 2 is incredibly close with 100% speed (I get a shield from our priest here for run speed) and jumping down from nest 4 is also fairly close though less so than nest 2. If you're using SoL here as I do for the downdrafts you can safely use it to reach nest 2 anyway so I guess the speed enchant on boots is fairly moot.

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