1. #2561
    The only problem I have with SW change, is it still requires you to use Avenging Wrath every 3 minutes. Very good bursty dps increase, gonna have to see how it compares with higher haste levels against DP.



  2. #2562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    In my experience it's more like the other way round.
    Solo tanking it as a pally doesn't take that much - while kiting as a BrM means 1 fail = wipe and you also have to deal with lags later on.
    It was a humbling experience to say the least.
    Felt like one fuckup from me and it was just a matter of time before it spiraled outta control.
    After some arguments about alts we decided to go with brm and me on warrior next raid.

    I'll be back for durumu :P
    Last edited by santa666; 2013-06-20 at 02:14 PM.

  3. #2563
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    The only problem I have with SW change, is it still requires you to use Avenging Wrath every 3 minutes. Very good bursty dps increase, gonna have to see how it compares with higher haste levels against DP.
    Hmm, but doesn't haste now DE-value SW? Since under SW you have no CD on J whether you have 0 haste or 21k. And, assuming here, you'll just be spamming J til your fingers bleed, weaving in ShotR as needed, so reduced ability CD's from SOB don't matter either. I'm not saying it's not a valid playstyle or that it's not a buff to the talent (it is)...just that it's kinda counter to what we're doing.

    HA scales linearly (exponentially?) with haste: more HoPo-gen's cast due to SoB means more 3x HoPo gained, means more ShotR/throughput as haste increases, with no limit or cap on value until CS is a 1sec CD.

    DP scales exponentially with haste: More ShotR's cast means 25% more procs every time.

    SW now gains nothing from haste.

    Just seems...odd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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  4. #2564
    You still get a faster gcd => more J under SW.
    Also why do you think dp scales exponentially with haste °_°
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  5. #2565
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    You still get a faster gcd => more J under SW.
    Also why do you think dp scales exponentially with haste °_°
    Meh, fair I guess, but I'm saying that holding haste values equal for all 3 talent choices, SW does not benefit outside of the GCD, which affects all talent choices equally.

    And I just picked a math word. I should be working, but trying to keep up on changes, and didn't feel like thinking about log vs expo vs linear. I just figured it wasn't linear, and went with expo. Feel free to correct and I'll edit the post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  6. #2566
    With 40% haste, you have a 1.07 gcd roughly right? (1.5/(1+haste%). So for the 30 seconds that you have AW up, that's 28 holy power you gain or roughly 9 SotR. Granted, if you have the 4pT16 bonus that's even more HoPo gained, at the cost of a few judges. Just looking at that, that could push me to using SW on longer fights.



  7. #2567
    It's linear ~
    Say you get 30 hp base per minute. That's 10 ShoR which ends up giving you 2.5 DP procs (3.3 after taking cascades into account)
    Now with 50% haste you get 45 HP, 15 ShoR and 3.75 DP procs. (5 after taking cascades into account)


    Can't really think of many things in wow that are nonlinear.
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  8. #2568
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    It's linear ~
    Say you get 30 hp base per minute. That's 10 ShoR which ends up giving you 2.5 DP procs (3.3 after taking cascades into account)
    Now with 50% haste you get 45 HP, 15 ShoR and 3.75 DP procs. (5 after taking cascades into account)
    Hmm, I guess thats accurate. When thinking about it earlier, I assumed it would scale non-linearly because of the "proc-off-proc" from DP.

    Can't really think of many things in wow that are nonlinear.
    Armor and armor pen (RIP)?

    ANYWHO. OT: I guess I'll just never get the fascination with SW. Maybe I've just not used it enough, since I don't opt to run it for ret or prot ever unless I need to do ranged dmg (like on Razorgrin). Maybe there will be a niche fight for it, but given that it's tied to a three min CD, it just seems underwhelming.

    Those extra 9 ShotR's every 3 mins just don't excite me. Maybe the damage increase (and healing) is enough to be useful, but even so, the CD is a bit long for me (personally).

    Looking at HA, with 40% haste, you're getting ~12 ShotRs in those 18 seconds, and that's every 2 minutes: 50% more casts and 50% more often. Sure you lose the extra 10 seconds of 20% dmg/heal, but it's not like you lose AW altogether. Plus, it still functions amazingly well as an actual cooldown.

    Or DP, averaging ~4+ spare casts per minute passively. That's more than SW gives, but less than HA (on an average, per-minute basis), but can obviously RNG higher or lower.

    Maybe I'm just missing something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  9. #2569
    Sacred Shield

    Regarding Sacred Shield, we tried giving the talent as a baseline ability to Protection, but we’re unhappy with that experiment and are likely to revert the change. We agree that the current (old) version of Sacred Shield is more attractive to Holy than the (new) version. We also would likely have to nerf Protection to compensate for getting Holy Shield in addition to another talent. Overall, we think the current (old) version of Sacred Shield is a better design. Perhaps we can still make Sacred Shield more attractive for Holy and Retribution, and make the other two talents (Selfless Healer, Eternal Flame) more attractive to Protection.
    From one of the latest blue posts. Oh well, the PTR is an experiment after all! I wonder how they'll make Selfless Healer and Eternal Flame more attractive to tanks?

  10. #2570
    Overheal is converted into an absorb shield?
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  11. #2571
    Quote Originally Posted by ccqpuodp View Post
    From one of the latest blue posts. Oh well, the PTR is an experiment after all! I wonder how they'll make Selfless Healer and Eternal Flame more attractive to tanks?
    I don't see how they can. They need to understand how damage in this game works and what the role of a tank really is.

    SH for a tank is a farce. We're tanks, designed to mitigate our own damage, not heal the raid. That's why we have healers. I'd never dream of wasting a global that I could be using to generate Holy Power or to output damage so that I could heal random raid members.

    EF for a tank doesn't square with the way damage presents itself. We get hit by a 350k melee swing and then an 800k boss special. We need to stop that damage from registering, not allow it to happen, cross our fingers that we don't die, and then cast a HoT - a spell which incidentally consumes the resource we NEED for SotR. It's the same problem our designers have with Dodge/Parry.

    They're right, though, that the current design of SS is good. It's logical and introduces more skill into the spec. It's a buff that needs to not only be tracked for duration but also for magnitude. A paladin may even be good at maintaining a strong (90%+) SS uptime but terrible at refreshing it when it's the most advantageous. And to anyone who says, "Yea, really skillful, hit a button every 30 seconds," I point them toward WoL where sub 50% uptimes ABOUND, and I really doubt most players pay any attention whatsoever to when it is refreshed. "Oh, SS is down" they notice after a 2 minute gap and refresh it right before taunting the boss, not refreshing it for another minute. When used right, it's a powerful tool, as it should be.

  12. #2572
    The thing about EF is that it's already better HPS than SS, but outside of soloing that just doesn't matter because preventing damage is better than healing it up. Truth be told I love EF how it is currently because you can survive vengeance cap in old content with it.

    Also lol at selfless healer.

  13. #2573
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Overheal is converted into an absorb shield?
    Yea, probably the only thing that would make me consider taking EF.

    On another topic, and I would've asked this 3 days ago but I got a suspension for telling some dude to go facehug a shotgun. Figures!

    Anyway, thanks for the advice the other day about Durumu HC. We got him in like 10 pulls or so, really easy boss (Though I'll say it was made easier due to my raiders being awesome DPS, they got durumu down to below 30% during the first deathbeam). Anyhow, gonna go for Primordius tomorrow and I've heard he thrashes tanks around like little bitches. Any tips you can afford to spare?


  14. #2574
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Yea, probably the only thing that would make me consider taking EF.

    On another topic, and I would've asked this 3 days ago but I got a suspension for telling some dude to go facehug a shotgun. Figures!

    Anyway, thanks for the advice the other day about Durumu HC. We got him in like 10 pulls or so, really easy boss (Though I'll say it was made easier due to my raiders being awesome DPS, they got durumu down to below 30% during the first deathbeam). Anyhow, gonna go for Primordius tomorrow and I've heard he thrashes tanks around like little bitches. Any tips you can afford to spare?
    It is quite a rough fight on tank's health. Hand of Purity and unglyphed Divine Protection will be your best friends. Get mutated while your Viscous Horrors are up, since there should be a nice line of pools behind the boss as he's moving around.

    I found Long arm of the Law worked best for me with moving around, since you'll be doing so much of it. Speed of Light won't be up every time you need it. I liked Holy Prism to help out on healing, and bouncing it off myself with all the adds around me was quite useful, or off the boss to help raid healing. I can see why some would use Execution Sentence, but personal choice I guess.

    But yeah... a nice fight for tanks. Just be sure to get those Viscous Horrors as they spawn, use lots of Purity and Divine Protection, get mutated, and backpedal a lot

  15. #2575
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    I suppose HoPurr is for the Black Blood stacks?

    And are you sure it works after the nerf?


  16. #2576
    Quote Originally Posted by ccqpuodp View Post
    It is quite a rough fight on tank's health. Hand of Purity and unglyphed Divine Protection will be your best friends. Get mutated while your Viscous Horrors are up, since there should be a nice line of pools behind the boss as he's moving around.

    I found Long arm of the Law worked best for me with moving around, since you'll be doing so much of it. Speed of Light won't be up every time you need it. I liked Holy Prism to help out on healing, and bouncing it off myself with all the adds around me was quite useful, or off the boss to help raid healing. I can see why some would use Execution Sentence, but personal choice I guess.

    But yeah... a nice fight for tanks. Just be sure to get those Viscous Horrors as they spawn, use lots of Purity and Divine Protection, get mutated, and backpedal a lot
    personally i found SoL to be sort of useful when you might not be very close to the boss just to make sure you can get to him before the slime does.
    Overall i guess it depends on your strat but i only see LAotL or SoL to be useful here.

  17. #2577
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    I suppose HoPurr is for the Black Blood stacks?

    And are you sure it works after the nerf?
    Black Blood generally doesn't stack as high as the dot from primordius - it's just there for general purpose of dot damage reduction.
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  18. #2578
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Black Blood generally doesn't stack as high as the dot from primordius - it's just there for general purpose of dot damage reduction.
    Oh right, Primordius also applies a dot, I was confusing it with the Durumu healing reduction stack for some reason. But, again, does HoPur still work for it since the "HoPur doesn't affect stuff that ignores immunities" thing?


  19. #2579
    I'm pretty sure you can remove the dots with immunities.
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  20. #2580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    I'm pretty sure you can remove the dots with immunities.
    Oh, really? Haven't tried on Primordius (he was so easy in normal I never got to experiment anything). Gonna give it a go, thanks for the tips!


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