[MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

[Nairobi]

Cross-posting a bit, but I CBA to re-type. Tanking meta will be useful (especially now that it's 20% to ALL damage) with its uptime of ~65%+. Will still be able to swap to Cap meta for ranking, or for tight enrages, but on early HC-progression I'll be using the tank meta. Cap meta is ~8% of damage in a 10HC clear now, but keep in mind that V levels will be a tad lower with the changes, and 40% fewer procs will put it ~5%. Not bad, but outshined by having an extra DivProt up 65% of the time.

Add to that, with new UbS changes (and CDR trinket) you can have ACTUAL DivProt up ~45% of the time too...

Cloak wise, I'll probably get both, but will likely use the DPS one more than AD one (10H POV, again). If the AD cape was still 1min CD then MAYBE it'd be a tougher call, but currently I just don't see how you'd be better off using it in most cases. Seems more of an "oops-eraser" than a legendary, and I don't really want to gear around planning how to recover from mistakes, personally. May change in week 1 of HC content though.

The cloak proc WAS shaping up to be insane with high-V tho...around 1.2mil dmg PER TARGET per proc. We'll still hit that hard, just ~0.95 PPM instead of ~1.55 (or whatever it was).

I don't like that they're renegging on the "we're not going to nerf DPS stuff, just make tanking better instead!" by 1) nerfing DPS stuff and 2) not making tank stuff (cape) better....but whatever. It will perhaps be refreshing (lore/tradition-wise) to be using Stam trinkets (Norushen trink) and "real" tank things again. If for no other reason than that MAYBE NOW THE BUTTHURT DPS WILL STFU ABOUT US TAKING HASTE LOOT.

[Promdates]

Jin - Solo tankable without bubble
Horridon - Okay, quite hard to solo tank without bubble.
Council - Solo tankable without bubble
Tortos - Solo tankable without bubble
Megaera - Solo tankable without bubble
Ji-Kun - Solo tankable without bubble, requires a quick kill though.
Durumu - Probably not solo tankable without bubble
Primordius - Solo tankable in normal without bubble, heroic 2 tanks
DA - Solo tankable in nuke strat without bubble, but in real strats you need more tanks
Iron Qon - Solo tankable without bubble, but hard
Twins - Solo tankable without bubble
Lei-Shen - Solo tankable without bubble
Ra-den - solo tankable without bubble

I really don't think you understand that blizzard specifically doesn't want us to solo tank fights in T16. They want multiple tanks in fights, and designed the fights with a lot of hard tank swaps with debuffs you can not remove with bubble. I'm not sure if you've done any PTR testing yet, but I haven't been able to solo tank anything on there, and I know many other paladins who have tried.

Granted, some things changed for T15 from PTR to Live, but the fact that you could bubble debuffs on 5.2 PTR didn't change. I look forward to you trying to solo tank every fight and proving us wrong, but many of us will just do it the normal way and use 2 tanks.

So i'm guessing the tank meta may actually be worth it next patch, the nerf to the dps meta proc chance for tanks, coupled with the tank meta working for all damage and the higher proc chance. The dps cloak still seems better personally, even with the reduced proc chance. I'm still a bit iffy..

I mentioned the tank meta change pages back, this is the first "official" announcement of the change. Honestly, not surprised to see the dps cloak get nerfed. I guess they really do want us to just use our normal spec's legendary. This won't change anything for me, wouldn't be surprised to see 10 tanks taking the tank cloak though. Will honestly be surprised to see them take the dps one with this nerf though. 40% is a pretty decent damage difference.

[pld]

I don't like that they're renegging on the "we're not going to nerf DPS stuff, just make tanking better instead!" by 1) nerfing DPS stuff and 2) not making tank stuff (cape) better....but whatever. It will perhaps be refreshing (lore/tradition-wise) to be using Stam trinkets (Norushen trink) and "real" tank things again. If for no other reason than that MAYBE NOW THE BUTTHURT DPS WILL STFU ABOUT US TAKING HASTE LOOT.

Does Norushen drop a stam trink? I thought the Norushen trinket was the cleave/strength proc one. Malkorok drops the nice stam/CD reduce trinket IIRC.

On a separate note, got a nice string of DP procs (not as nice as FF's though) and hit 75.6% uptime on Durumu. Record high

[Promdates]

Norushen does drop the str/cleave one.

[Nairobi]

I mentioned the tank meta change pages back, this is the first "official" announcement of the change. Honestly, not surprised to see the dps cloak get nerfed. I guess they really do want us to just use our normal spec's legendary. This won't change anything for me, wouldn't be surprised to see 10 tanks taking the tank cloak though. Will honestly be surprised to see them take the dps one with this nerf though. 40% is a pretty decent damage difference.

Yeah I don't think people understand the magnitude of difference that 20% physical vs 20% ALL dmg redux makes. That, coupled with the huge boon to uptime, removes a lot of the suck from the tank LMG.

As for capes in 10s, I guess we'll just have to see. I'll retain the DPS one until/unless something forces me to make use of the 2min AD. The biggest blow is that the proc CHANCE is reduced by 40%, not the proc DAMAGE. This means we'll likely see the cleave go out on the pull (low V), then once a minute after that. I can see this losing a lot of its potency since 60 sec intervals from the pull may not coincide with lot of adds/targets to cleave. Still, damage on the boss is nice, and if we don't make use of the AD cape, it's the clear choice.

Does Norushen drop a stam trink? I thought the Norushen trinket was the cleave/strength proc one. Malkorok drops the nice stam/CD reduce trinket IIRC.

Eh, maybe it was him. I was parousing tables yesterday and trying to make a list in my head. Didn't bother to write anything down, so you're probably right.

[rhandric]

40% is a pretty decent damage difference.

That's true, but if you don't need the tanking cloak/meta, there's no reason not to go with the dps version. What this'll mean, and what's going to be annoying as a result, is some of us will decide to keep 2 helms and cloaks, and switch on a fight by fight basis.

[Promdates]

The DPS cloak looks to have a 1.05+haste RPPM trigger for tanks instead of 1.75+haste for dps at a 2/2 upgrade. Like I said before, if you have 150k vengeance and 40k ap you end up only doing 380k to a single target.

[Deleted]

I really don't think you understand that blizzard specifically doesn't want us to solo tank fights in T16. They want multiple tanks in fights, and designed the fights with a lot of hard tank swaps with debuffs you can not remove with bubble. I'm not sure if you've done any PTR testing yet, but I haven't been able to solo tank anything on there, and I know many other paladins who have tried.

Nah, I generally dont play on PTR. I like to see stuff live and figure it out on myself.

While sure, they dont want us to solo tank stuff in T16, I am still going to take that with a grain of salt from a 10 man PoV.
As said, I have not been in PTR. But forgive me for being a bit sceptical when people say you wont be able to solo tank, especially in 10 man (wet noodles).

If blizzard solution to us not solo tanking = You can bubble stuff!!! Then there are still gonna be plenty solo tank fights.

[Nairobi]

The DPS cloak looks to have a 1.05+haste RPPM trigger for tanks instead of 1.75+haste for dps at a 2/2 upgrade. Like I said before, if you have 150k vengeance and 40k ap you end up only doing 380k to a single target.

I thought it wasn't hasted anymore? I hate all these changes to rPPM and the entire system in brought with it.

Still, 380k dmg per proc, ST, is still ~ 2.5 mil over a 6min fight. Probably more like 3.0mil with the haste figured in, but whatever... My point is, if you don't need the AD bailout, thats 3mil dmg "for free". You'd get a potential 3x AD saves in that same fight window, so I guess it's just a matter of "do you need the save?". If not, the DPS is a no-brainer.

Plus better itemized.

Still, I'd like to see the proc at least more useful. Give it a bubble/purgatory/heal when it activates (so we don't get gibbed a split second later). Make the proc a controllable/active DR instead of passive bailout. Something, really pretty much ANYthing is better than the current version. I like the IDEA of a get out of jail free card (even though we already have one), but the implementation is lacking. Badly.

[Promdates]

Nah, I generally dont play on PTR. I like to see stuff live and figure it out on myself.

While sure, they dont want us to solo tank stuff in T16, I am still going to take that with a grain of salt from a 10 man PoV.
As said, I have not been in PTR. But forgive me for being a bit sceptical when people say you wont be able to solo tank, especially in 10 man (wet noodles).

If blizzard solution to us not solo tanking = You can bubble stuff!!! Then there are still gonna be plenty solo tank fights.

Having played this game since vanilla, I can say that when you have information in front of you like the vast amount of PTR testing that is being done... ignoring it because "i want to figure it out for myself" can be a HUGE hindrance and handicap you hard. It'd be like someone going to work on a car when they have no idea what they're doing without looking up information first, because they wanted to figure it out on their own.

I said you can NOT bubble debuffs off in T16. There are a few that you can, but those aren't the important ones that force you to swap. There have been plenty of people to try to single tank bosses on the PTR, and every single one of them said you couldn't do it. I don't even know why I keep telling you these things, since you just want to figure it out for yourself, but don't say we didn't warn you in any way.

[Nillo]

I thought it wasn't hasted anymore? I hate all these changes to rPPM and the entire system in brought with it.

Hmm wouldn't really make sense since they only removed haste from procs that scale with haste which pretty much applies to stat procs only.

[Promdates]

I thought it wasn't hasted anymore? I hate all these changes to rPPM and the entire system in brought with it.

That's what the cloak says on ptr.wowhead.com. 3m damage over 6 minutes is only a 5k dps. That seems to be HUGE, and totally worth it in that situation...

[Drummerboy]

Jin - Solo tankable without bubble
Horridon - Okay, quite hard to solo tank without bubble.
Council - Solo tankable without bubble
Tortos - Solo tankable without bubble
Megaera - Solo tankable without bubble
Ji-Kun - Solo tankable without bubble, requires a quick kill though.
Durumu - Probably not solo tankable without bubble
Primordius - Solo tankable in normal without bubble, heroic 2 tanks
DA - Solo tankable in nuke strat without bubble, but in real strats you need more tanks
Iron Qon - Solo tankable without bubble, but hard
Twins - Solo tankable without bubble
Lei-Shen - Solo tankable without bubble
Ra-den - solo tankable without bubble

I find it hard to believe that you solo tanked all those fights while on progression. My healers cannot keep up with the damage after getting the debuff on H Jin. Horridon probably could have been solo tanked but with all the adds on top of the boss would make my dps bitch. When we had Council on progression I died nearly everytime I got frozen when tanking Sully and Frosty (until healers chained CD's).

The list goes on and I know there were ways to avoid some of this but my raid leader prefers more traditional methods vs bleeding edge tactics. It's a comfort level issue.

[Deleted]

I find it hard to believe that you solo tanked all those fights while on progression. My healers cannot keep up with the damage after getting the debuff on H Jin. Horridon probably could have been solo tanked but with all the adds on top of the boss would make my dps bitch. When we had Council on progression I died nearly everytime I got frozen when tanking Sully and Frosty (until healers chained CD's).

The list goes on and I know there were ways to avoid some of this but my raid leader prefers more traditional methods vs bleeding edge tactics. It's a comfort level issue.

I never said I did, I said they were solo tankable however.

Like, why would I solo tank normal primordius on progression? Maybei f you are going with the zerg strat in normal
Doesnt change the fact that you can solo tank it, just that it is not maybe benefitial.

[Promdates]

The list goes on and I know there were ways to avoid some of this but my raid leader prefers more traditional methods vs bleeding edge tactics. It's a comfort level issue.

None of this was "bleeding edge" though, a few of them you could solo tank legit and not have to have the raid do dumb things (Durumu, tortos, iron qon, ra den) but when you get to horridon, megaera, or animus (lol nuke strat that came out when people overgeared the fight and was in no way a "progression" strat) you had to have the raid stand in certain spots which could cause problems.

[Nairobi]

Hmm wouldn't really make sense since they only removed haste from procs that scale with haste which pretty much applies to stat procs only.

Right, I get the rules behind the changes, it just seems like over-engineering a solution to a problem that rPPM created in the first place.

That's what the cloak says on ptr.wowhead.com. 3m damage over 6 minutes is only a 5k dps. That seems to be HUGE, and totally worth it in that situation...

Sarcasm duly noted, but my point remains that even ignoring the better itemization, it's still 3m more damage than the tank cape would provide. You can split hairs and say "well HW only did 3.5m over the fight, it's only worth ~5.2k DPS" too, but we're still going to use it

If the cape proc wasn't 1) on such a long ICD, 2) such a terrible proc, 3) wasn't duplicated by a CD we already have, or 4) functioned as a mitigator rather than a bailout/fuckup-eraser, I'd be more inclined to agree with you about its validity. But, the above 4 reasons are really getting in the way of me giving it a lot of credence right now.

[Deleted]

Having played this game since vanilla, I can say that when you have information in front of you like the vast amount of PTR testing that is being done... ignoring it because "i want to figure it out for myself" can be a HUGE hindrance and handicap you hard. It'd be like someone going to work on a car when they have no idea what they're doing without looking up information first, because they wanted to figure it out on their own.

I said you can NOT bubble debuffs off in T16. There are a few that you can, but those aren't the important ones that force you to swap. There have been plenty of people to try to single tank bosses on the PTR, and every single one of them said you couldn't do it. I don't even know why I keep telling you these things, since you just want to figure it out for yourself, but don't say we didn't warn you in any way.

Just because you cant bubble debuffs doesnt mean you cant do them, you could not bubble away the debuff from Tsulongs breath, yet he was extremely easily solo tankable.

I often find I get better solutions by figuring it out myself. The difference in your car example is that I am a car mechanic myself.
Just to freshen up your memory as you said, there is vast testing on the PTR saying it is not solo tankable, there was vast testing in T15 PTR that said it was not solo tankable. Let me just bring back some quotes from last PTR.

Really? You figured out a way to solo tank Megaera

On 10 man, you can probably solo tank it. - This is in referance to Tortos 10 by yourself PD, one of the easiest solo tank fights in T15, and you seemed sceptical about it. You however deemed it impossible to solo tank it in 25 man.

I was even conservative myself and saying that 10HC tortos was probably not solo tankable (which it easily is)

It is nothing personal about you, I just know from experience that once a tier is released, suddenly solo tank strategies start to pop up like flowers in May.

[Nillo]

I just hope they make 2 tanking worthwhile on those fights that require it - because for now they mostly failed in that regard.
The last real 2 tank fights I can remember were back in t11 !:

[pld]

I just hope they make 2 tanking worthwhile on those fights that require it - because for now they mostly failed in that regard.
The last real 2 tank fights I can remember were back in t11 !:

I thought H Primo was an interesting 2 tank fight. It actually required the tanks to communicate and coordinate properly.

[Deleted]

Heroic primordius was a nice one with the debuff management on killing oozes and the tanks having to move around to avoid the black slimes, the rest lacked a bit though. I'm inclined to agree about solo tanking as well, initially people are always sceptical but then the strategies start jumping out of the woodwork. At first I thought solo tanking magaera would be laughably impossible but then I ended up solo tanking her on progression for heroic just fine.