1. #5001
    How strong is the prot 4 piece? The reason I ask is that I have the H WF Darkfallen Shoulderplates (from Protectors) and H Helm of the Night Watchman (from Spoils). Is it worth dropping the 4 piece for the haste increase I would get from those items?

    Armory is in my sig.

    Thanks!

  2. #5002
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    Theck demonstrated that 4pc LFR is worth HC (at least) off pieces if I'm not mistaken.
    In the end it is something you have to try a bit. Not saying it's better but now I can't think how I would do without 4pc.
    You're doing 10 man, it is so much handy to have and healers don't even really think about you anymore.
    Being able to play more with WoG glyph is also worth off pieces with higher ilvl, dps wise.
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  3. #5003
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    http://www.sacredduty.net/2014/01/07...value-of-4t16/ here is the article.
    Theck developped Simulationcraft modules specifically for prot paladins (and tanks in general). His posts are a lot mathematically based but come up with deep analysis of our dps/survivability amongst other stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velkhan View Post
    Those warriors... blizzard should rename "shout" spells to "cry" they are so good at that.

  4. #5004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moussaka View Post
    Theck demonstrated that 4pc LFR is worth HC (at least) off pieces if I'm not mistaken.
    In the end it is something you have to try a bit. Not saying it's better but now I can't think how I would do without 4pc.
    You're doing 10 man, it is so much handy to have and healers don't even really think about you anymore.
    Being able to play more with WoG glyph is also worth off pieces with higher ilvl, dps wise.
    Are you trying to bullshit people?
    Do you honestly think 4pc lfr is worth hc off pieces?

    If I had 2p HC, I would drop 2 HC off pieces for 2 normal pieces set pieces.
    If you have 3 HC set pieces + 1 lfr set piece vs 4 hc set pieces, I for sure would use 2set + 2 offset.

    The 4p is not even remotely that strong, it is mostly a tool to abuse WoG glyph to get ranks, but for survival, meh.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2014-03-21 at 04:06 PM.

  5. #5005
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Are you trying to bullshit people?
    Do you honestly think 4pc lfr is worth hc off pieces?

    If I had 2p HC, I would drop 2 HC off pieces for 2 normal pieces set pieces.
    If you have 3 HC set pieces + 1 lfr set piece vs 4 hc set pieces, I for sure would use 2set + 2 offset.

    The 4p is not even remotely that strong, it is mostly a tool to abuse WoG glyph to get ranks, but for survival, meh.
    Not trying to appear like a know it all, but I have to say that the 4set for me is a must.
    It helps me retain a higher uptime on my SotR with that extra "free" hit that it provides as well as a higher uptime on my EF.

    Not saying that you cannot go without it, no. But since I have a choice on the matter, I choose to have it cause it brings more utility to my char.

    As to what was discussed earlier about dps, yeah we are kinda suffering now ​but it's all about the ability management. The only thing that bugs me is the fact we are so dependant on our MH for our dps, since our HotR hits still like a wet noodle...

  6. #5006
    Quote Originally Posted by Brollgarth View Post
    As to what was discussed earlier about dps, yeah we are kinda suffering now ​but it's all about the ability management. The only thing that bugs me is the fact we are so dependant on our MH for our dps, since our HotR hits still like a wet noodle...
    No, we are completely dependent on attack power for our dps. Weapon damage is almost completely irrelevant as it is only Crusader Strike and melee swing that benefit from it (and they still gain a benefit from attack power) and they do a sum total of about 10-15% of our damage.

  7. #5007
    Yeah bud, I read that too, but what confuses me is this.
    How can you explain the increase in threat as soon as I get an upgrade on my MH?

  8. #5008
    But then on the other hand a belt has more overall stats and potentially haste on it.

    Anywho - with decent vengeance the only stats that matter are haste/crit anyway.

  9. #5009
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    But then on the other hand a belt has more overall stats and potentially haste on it.

    Anywho - with decent vengeance the only stats that matter are haste/crit anyway.
    You need something like 4000 strength to offset a 13 item level lower weapon damage amount. And OK, your weapon damage isn't as significant as it is for, say a ret pally or a warrior, but it can make a difference.

  10. #5010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazel View Post
    Meh I never ever checked any guide in my life for my rotation/buıild/whatever. 4pc just increases your dps aka more uptime on glyph of WoG. Sure it increases survival aswell, but not as much as it increases dps. Like firefly said, its mostly used for more %9 dmg uptime , in other words, for ranking.
    Guides are so late to find stuff out anyways, prot paladin is not rocket science.
    The thing with the survival from the 4p though is that it is often at the cost of stamina, armor and good secondary stats, which outweighed the 4p on most fights.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brollgarth View Post
    Not trying to appear like a know it all, but I have to say that the 4set for me is a must.
    It helps me retain a higher uptime on my SotR with that extra "free" hit that it provides as well as a higher uptime on my EF.

    Not saying that you cannot go without it, no. But since I have a choice on the matter, I choose to have it cause it brings more utility to my char.

    As to what was discussed earlier about dps, yeah we are kinda suffering now ​but it's all about the ability management. The only thing that bugs me is the fact we are so dependant on our MH for our dps, since our HotR hits still like a wet noodle...
    If the 4p is a must for you it means that you are not that good at managing your holy power. That does not make it equally good for other players and I would rather advise them to learn to pool and use holy power properly. The 4p has legit use for dps rankings though. The thing is that SotR uptime this tier has been highly irrelevant. The only bosses were SotR uptime would have been important hit so weak that you outgeared them in 530 ilvl and the only bosses that actually hit hard, SotR uptime was never important. The only fight that I could possibly have wanted the 4p on was Paragons of the Klaxxi while I was tanking Ka'roz at the end, but then we switched around anyway so the warrior did that instead, so then it would have been useless again.
    On our last normal Paragon kill I actually picked up retribution set legs instead of protection as I already had the 2p which was the only important set bonus and preferred the stats on the ret legs over getting 3p and hoping for 4p on the next farm since I already had HC and HCWF off-pieces in the remaining two slots.

    I spent more than one or two thoughts about what would be my optimal gearing route for survival this tier. Going into this tier, my gear was so bad due to not having farmed HC as most other guilds, I also did not get a single upgrade the first 2 weeks in SoO so this combined led to me having the lowest item level by far of all prot paladins (atleast in the top50 guilds). Fraggoji actually had a bit lower than me on Garrosh, but yeah. I know what it is like to be squishy this tier, and how to deal with it. 4p just did not fit into that equation at all, since even at the 543 item level(which was what I had after T15) I had for most heroic bosses, I felt like I was overgearing most bosses up until Siegecrafter, and after that the 4p did not do anything useful really.

    As for what you wrote about MH. As others have said, we are extremely non-dependant on a main-hand. We are probably the class in the game that depends the least on MH. I went up from a H:TF (dont eve remember what item level that is) to a H:WF weapon on like week 3 or something and I did not even notice a difference. Weapon is the thing I almost at the bottom of my list for upgrades as it provides so little stats.
    Back in T14 I used to raid with Cookie's Tenderizer during farm just for fun together with the Chef title. If the bosses were easy enough the Chef's Hat also went on my head, you know, staying in character of cooking bosses for dinner . I even got some rankings with that weapon. Not the best rankings most of the time ofc, but still, point is weapon really matters that little.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2014-03-22 at 04:33 PM.

  11. #5011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    You need something like 4000 strength to offset a 13 item level lower weapon damage amount. And OK, your weapon damage isn't as significant as it is for, say a ret pally or a warrior, but it can make a difference.
    Yeah, I just did a napkin test in-game. A 549 weapon compared to a 574 weapon did about 9-10k strength worths of dps difference for me on a dummy. Nothing scientifical or anything, just a short weapon swap test.

    Anyways, that is just completely insignificant compared to the vengeance you have nowadays.

  12. #5012
    Point taken mate

    Thanks for the clarifications!

  13. #5013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Are you trying to bullshit people?
    Do you honestly think 4pc lfr is worth hc off pieces?
    I, personaly, did not say that. I even said that it might not be better. Theck simed it to be better. True or false in practice, I don't know.
    Although you were at the edge of progress with poor gear as you say so your choices back then seems obvious: higher ilvl upgrades and let tiers pieces to dps.
    Now we are already late into the tier so you can eventually take the "risk" to drop HCWF off pieces to lower tier pieces.
    In the end it's personal choice: either a comfort tool (4pc) or passive def stats.
    It's not bad to have different points of view. Up to every one to decide with full picture in mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velkhan View Post
    Those warriors... blizzard should rename "shout" spells to "cry" they are so good at that.

  14. #5014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moussaka View Post
    I, personaly, did not say that. I even said that it might not be better. Theck simed it to be better. True or false in practice, I don't know.
    Although you were at the edge of progress with poor gear as you say so your choices back then seems obvious: higher ilvl upgrades and let tiers pieces to dps.
    Now we are already late into the tier so you can eventually take the "risk" to drop HCWF off pieces to lower tier pieces.
    In the end it's personal choice: either a comfort tool (4pc) or passive def stats.
    It's not bad to have different points of view. Up to every one to decide with full picture in mind.
    I still opted for the tier pieces that I got to sit in my bags and used some on retribution pieces due to better stats on them. If I would have wanted the 4p I could have gotten it easily from flex or lfr. It is not the old days when only DPS got tiers for the first resets.
    I actually had 4 piece if I wanted to do. But I opted to use normal retribution set legs + HC off-set head over normal protection legs + flex prot helm.

    The 4p did not exactly gain value with higher gear levels, other than of course the dps benefit.

  15. #5015
    So is the general consensus that Thelm stick with the HC off pieces, since the 4PC is really only important for DPS rankings? He really needs to kill H Garrosh this week, and I don't want him making me tank since he's falling over dead all the time. Thanks.
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  16. #5016
    Quote Originally Posted by Fedya View Post
    So is the general consensus that Thelm stick with the HC off pieces, since the 4PC is really only important for DPS rankings? He really needs to kill H Garrosh this week, and I don't want him making me tank since he's falling over dead all the time. Thanks.
    Just because firefly is so vocal about it doesn't mean that it's general consensus that the 4p is bad.
    Personally I'm of the opinion that removing the opportunity cost and higher uptime on ShoR (especially if coupled with DP) are definitely worth more than whatever stats you may gain ... unless the difference in ilvl is very significant.
    Armor/Haste/Stamina just don't mean that much if you're already sitting at a more than comfortable level on all of them.

  17. #5017
    Quote Originally Posted by Fedya View Post
    So is the general consensus that Thelm stick with the HC off pieces, since the 4PC is really only important for DPS rankings? He really needs to kill H Garrosh this week, and I don't want him making me tank since he's falling over dead all the time. Thanks.
    If you have higher than 570 equipped it doesn't matter what the fuck you wear. And if you have less than ~565 you are probably better off with T15 4p.

  18. #5018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedya View Post
    So is the general consensus that Thelm stick with the HC off pieces, since the 4PC is really only important for DPS rankings? He really needs to kill H Garrosh this week, and I don't want him making me tank since he's falling over dead all the time. Thanks.
    The 4p is not terrible, nor is it awesome (other than for dps). It will most often boil down to what is your highest item level pieces. If you are equipping LFR set pieces over Heroic off-pieces to get the 4p your doing it wrong in my opinion. If there is a significant difference in stats, go with off pieces, if the difference is small you can pick up tier.

    In my scenario, the 4p was completely useless in terms of survival, but my scenario also does not apply for everyone. Different players will find different use for it. Generally the 4p works more help for newer and insecurer tanks. So as always with tanking, it is about finding what you like the most. I am very vocal about disliking the 4p as so many people seem to think it is impossible to live without it, whilst in reality they are creating that need themselves due to not learning how to use HoPo well. In same sense it reminds me of the old haste vs exp discussion back in T14 when you could not cap both.

    As always. Do not blindly follow anyone on the internet, not me, not the author of any guide, not any poster in any forum. Instead read what people write, learn, take stuff into consideration and then figure out what works the best for you. What makes the most sense for you, etc. Following peoples advices without understanding the reasoning behind it often yields bad results. If you cant understand someones reasoning than it can be a good idea to ask them how they think etc.

  19. #5019
    I get you Firefly, and I do understand where you are coming from.

    But I still hold my idea that 4set is a must.
    Reason isn't that I don't know how to manage my HP. Been playing as a prot pala since late tbc (yesh, with all the changes qq). It's just that to me, 4set feels more fluid on the uptime of SotR together with maintaining 100% uptime on EF, which isn't really hard to obtain even without it, yes. But why go to the trouble of not taking it when it's there and able to obtain?
    And I am not pushing for DPS only, through Divine Purpose the 4 set is simply too much of a help in your group on panic situations also. Countless times throwing EF to random raiders to assist with healing if needed, or stacking my SotR to 18+ secs to smoothen inc damage.


    That being said, I am talking about HC raiding, and ofc 550+ brackets. I am with you 100% on the stupid sacrifice of stats one may experience by using raid finder gear for the 4set and then go tank any HC. And I have tried that too btw, simply not worth it.
    Last edited by Brollgarth; 2014-03-25 at 10:58 AM.

  20. #5020
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    I feel like Brollgarth. A must is maybe exaggerated but convenient and comfortable, yes. It might be for some of us because we are accustomed of the normal tanking mechanic of our class from last tiers. We know how to manage HoPo and now with 4pc we can play with it (not blindingly). Although 100% EF uptime can be see as irrelevant, depending on encounters and tactics (I suppose you're talking about rankings of some kind with this ==> WoG glyph).
    The rest holds true.

    I'd add that Theck simed 4pc being worth HC off pieces but it never have been said that it is good practice to go tank HC content with a lfr one.
    It's there to inform us, now we are up to decide, with common sense and all the (precious most of the time) knowledge we can find here, what's the best to do
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velkhan View Post
    Those warriors... blizzard should rename "shout" spells to "cry" they are so good at that.

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