Do we need some baseline shield skills?

[Tangra]

Another thread in this forum reminded me of something that has really bothered me about Paladin defenses for a while: we have no baseline shield skills of any sort. When a druid or warrior goes defensive, they actually gain some new moves, when a Ret Paladin does, we get a sad 5% block and some armor. In pvp this basically often leads to a slow loss for you team since the Ret gains nothing significant by going defensive and so the other team's pressure continues to be difficult to handle, while our damage is greatly nerfed making it very difficult to turn the tide of the fight and put the other team on defense.

Of course, I would rather not see Ret get too many significant shield skills, because then Blizzard would expect us to use a shield often and our defenses would be designed around it. Perhaps a baseline inferior version of Shield of Righteousness, which keeps some of the elements of ShoR such as the stacking WoG buff, and perhaps part of the damage reduction effect, could work. Another simple solution would be for TV or CS to gain some sort of defensive buff while a shield is equipped, such as perhaps shielding the paladin for some percentage of the damage dealt; this could be a glyph or Ret passive.

Anyway, my main point is that our shield being a stat stick that does not alter how we play is questionable design both from a tactical point of view and lore point of view. It feels like an awkward gap in the design of the class. What would you like to see Ret gain from equipping a shield in emergencies?

[metalgemini]

Ret doesnt need a shield or shield abilities. The purpose of ret is to be a damage dealing spec, not a defensive spec. Paladin's have self healing and some of the best emergency CDs, adding more just isn't necessary. If ret ends up needing more defense, it would be better to add something like the warrior's Die by the Sword than force them to a) have a suitable shield + 1hd and b) swap weapons to live.

[Pryyde]

Call me crazy, but Blizzard is moving away from that kind of mindset. Notice how bears and cats are becoming separate specs? Or how in Cata Arms/Fury warriors lost the ability to Shield Slam and soon after Shield Bash?

It's bad enough warriors still have to weapon-switch for spell reflect...

[Tangra]

Interesting points, but ultimately what's the point of even retaining the ability to use a shield if it's going to be some half-baked relic with no real use. I am by no means saying that using a shield should become a major part of Ret gameplay, but I think that every aspect of the game should be polished and feel thoughtfully designed. When a melee throws a shield on it would just be fun and logical for gameplay to change slightly; if shields are going to be stat sticks, we might as well make them for prot only. I do see that warriors and ferals are losing even more of their taking abilities, if they are not tanks, in MoP, but I still think that just one single little baseline shield ability would make the class feel more polished and fluid, and increase the pvp skill cap.

[Superlolz]

Warriors lost Shield Bash and it was replaced with Pummel, which is the same mechanic.

[Tangra]

Perhaps some sort of cooldown would guarantee that shields are meaningful without forcing Ret to use them as part of their main defensive measures. Considering several classes are getting emergency tanking cooldowns, for non-tanks, that allow non-tanks do be decent tanks for a few seconds, something similar might be nice for Ret too. Perhaps a 2 minuted cooldown that requires a shield and increases dodge, parry, block or some of our other defenses for 20 sec or so could work.

[Archibalde]

Then you'd also need a main-hand weapon. Some DPS have a Prot off-spec and have access to both a tanking shield and a one-handed strength weapon, but what about those with a Holy one? Or those with a PvP Ret off-spec? It would make the defensive cooldown rather exclusive to a lot of players, and that's just not good design. They could make strength shields Prot only, and Int shields Holy only, but is it truly necessary to make that specification?

[Malthanis]

...but ultimately what's the point of even retaining the ability to use a shield if it's going to be some half-baked relic with no real use.

Because they give weapon skills to a class, not a spec.

Aside from that, the primary supporting theme for Warriors is intense training. How else would they keep up with other heroes wielding the power of the elements or the Light? A Fury or Arms Warrior would know very well how a shield works, and what to do with it, so being at least somewhat effective with a shield makes sense for them. For the other melee specs that can equip shields (Retribution and Enhancement), they have either their faith in the Light or the assistance of the elements to defend them (i.e. healing and defensive CDs).

I'm all for expanding the depth of gameplay in any aspect of the game, but wanting effective shield skills for Ret is essentially saying "I want what that Warrior has". I understand not letting the story and theme of a game get in the way of gameplay improvements, but there are times when gameplay improvements would throw certain important story/theme elements out the window. In this case, it would basically be giving a Paladin something that (thematically) is unique to the Warrior, and that reeks of homogenization.

[Tangra]

Because they give weapon skills to a class, not a spec.

Aside from that, the primary supporting theme for Warriors is intense training. How else would they keep up with other heroes wielding the power of the elements or the Light? A Fury or Arms Warrior would know very well how a shield works, and what to do with it, so being at least somewhat effective with a shield makes sense for them. For the other melee specs that can equip shields (Retribution and Enhancement), they have either their faith in the Light or the assistance of the elements to defend them (i.e. healing and defensive CDs).

I'm all for expanding the depth of gameplay in any aspect of the game, but wanting effective shield skills for Ret is essentially saying "I want what that Warrior has". I understand not letting the story and theme of a game get in the way of gameplay improvements, but there are times when gameplay improvements would throw certain important story/theme elements out the window. In this case, it would basically be giving a Paladin something that (thematically) is unique to the Warrior, and that reeks of homogenization.

Lore-wise, you are mostly correct, certainly warriors should be a bit more skilled with weapons, shields and other combat equipment. But, then again there should be a small difference between Ret and Enhancement shield use since Paladins are a tanking class and Shamans are not. Overall, it's just plain stupid that a Ret paladin would be so inept with a shield that he can't figure out some basic combat maneuvers other than hiding behind it like a civilian (not to mention we did have Shield of Righteousness before and lost it for no apparent reason other than the Holy Power finisher system).

Also, let's keep in mind that "homogenization" arguments have been frequently abused to keep Paladins from many vital tools such as interrupts, snares, a gap closer and so forth. After all, in Vanilla Paladins were designed to be a moronic auto-attack class that had to focus on cleansing and buffing (which due to changes in the game are no longer combat roles for any melee dps), in other words, due to the absurd and questionable simplicity of Vanilla Paladins, it's way to easy to play the "homogenization" card since anything other than sitting with your thumb up your butt and auto-attacking breaks away from original Paladin design, and strays into the territory of other specs, which have been drastically more dynamic since launch.

Due to blatant anti-Ret bias apparent among developers, especially during Burning Crusade, virtually anything interesting or dynamic was given to other class, so it's very difficult to draw the line between Paladin design and lore and that of other specs. A very large part of why Ret is the way it is in WoW is years of negligence and under-development, superficial and misguided overhauls which leave the spec spinning in circles and so forth. To be honest, I don't think homogenization arguments apply to specs like Ret to a significant extent since the specs is widely known to be neglected for many years, leading much of our "flavor" to be meaningless and incidental rather than lore-inspired or intentionally designed.

[Holtzmann]

I don't find anything at all interesting or dynamic about having to macro a sword and board set-up to my defensive cooldowns. It's not compelling or fun. It's needless complexity that results in needless drops in damage potential from a spec that already has issues keeping good uptime on targets. So no, I don't think we need shield skills. I'm far happier with channeling the Space Marines and macroing "/y FAITH IS MY SHIELD!" to my defensive abilities instead.

[Tangra]

I don't find anything at all interesting or dynamic about having to macro a sword and board set-up to my defensive cooldowns. It's not compelling or fun. It's needless complexity that results in needless drops in damage potential from a spec that already has issues keeping good uptime on targets. So no, I don't think we need shield skills. I'm far happier with channeling the Space Marines and macroing "/y FAITH IS MY SHIELD!" to my defensive abilities instead.

Yes, it is a bit of a can of worms, which is why I would lean toward a 2 or 3 min cooldown that makes shields more useful for 10 or 15 seconds, and no other shield skills. Basically, an off-tanking cooldown for PvE and a bit more survivability in PvP.

[Malthanis]

Overall, it's just plain stupid that a Ret paladin would be so inept with a shield that he can't figure out some basic combat maneuvers other than hiding behind it like a civilian (not to mention we did have Shield of Righteousness before and lost it for no apparent reason other than the Holy Power finisher system).

True, which is why a Ret paladin would be able to equip said shield and block with it in the first place. A warrior can use it to reduce effective damage from a dragon breathing fire on him because he's just that much better with it.

Yes, it is a bit of a can of worms, which is why I would lean toward a 2 or 3 min cooldown that makes shields more useful for 10 or 15 seconds, and no other shield skills. Basically, an off-tanking cooldown for PvE and a bit more survivability in PvP.

You're trying to create a CD where there isn't a need or reason for one. I could see if you were arguing for another defensive CD in general, but for it to require a shield just for the sake of a shield is not needed.

[Rivin]

Having a defensive cooldown that requires a shield is one of the most aggravating things about warriors. Do not want.

[Tangra]

True, which is why a Ret paladin would be able to equip said shield and block with it in the first place. A warrior can use it to reduce effective damage from a dragon breathing fire on him because he's just that much better with it.



You're trying to create a CD where there isn't a need or reason for one. I could see if you were arguing for another defensive CD in general, but for it to require a shield just for the sake of a shield is not needed.

Well Ret probably does need another defensive cooldown, and this could be a good way of easing Blizzard into giving us one due to the drawbacks of using a shield. Without said drawbacks they will hesitate since you know they don't want a repeat of all of those horrible years of Ret ruling the PvP universe (lol Kalgan quote), oh wait that never happened.