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  1. #1

    [Death Knights] Have 90% NO Choices In MoP

    8-1-2012 -
    Note - I have updated this thread with all new information and factual evidence that backs up my claims that all talents are picked for us and we have 100% no choice in talents.

    ____

    I know that most of these issues have been presented in many other various threads but I just realized something and came up with a dramatic conclusion about Death Knights going into MoP.

    We have almost no choice in talents/glyphs at all.
    Lets break it down.

    ____

    Lets start with your talent grid.

    Tier 56 - This tier is all about spreading diseases. Then we have a talent in their called plaque leach which lets us obtain a Death Rune in return for diminishing the diseases on our current target. The automatic choice here is Plaque Leech do to the fact it gives us a death rune. The argument here is that we have plenty of other mechanics to spread diseases such as outbreak and pestilence so doing more dps is the obvious option.

    Tier 57 - Nothing really to discuss here. Purgatory will be mandatory for tanks who obviously want to survive and live long as possible. AMZ and LB are basically just their for PvP. Most if not all dps will choose AMZ in PvE because they will want that raid CD. There are no situations ever where a dps would want to use LB in raid situation. And of course a PvP player will always take LB.

    Tier 58 - Now this is a tricky tier because of the change to frost presence. Now that frost specialization is forced into frost presence we now lose the movement speed increase from unholy presence. Because of this, everyone will spec into death's advance for both PvE and PvP because of stacking speed increase buff even if you are unholy. Not to mention that glyph of DnD lets us slow anyways so CB is never an option. Asphyxiate which I bet sounded cool to everyone at first when it was announced but further glance you notice it gets rid of silence. No one will ever choose this outside of cosmetic playing around because we would rather have a silence+a movement increase than a stun that most are immune to anyways.

    Tier 60 - This is another no choice tier because it has already been mathed out. You are 99.9% of the time going to want to pick death pact because of the way it functions now. Being able to heal yourself for half your health instantly is an automatic win even if you are not unholy because raise undead is on a 2min CD same as DP. Conversion and Death Siphon are both useless in both PvP and PvE because they are a dps lost because they costs enormous amount of resources. Conversion might be used for leveling without having to wait and eat but even then Death Pact is better.

    Tier 75 - This has been discussed for months at it is pretty much unanimous at this point that no one wants this tier. Having to choose a core mechanic to decide how your runes regenerate is just not a good idea. I mean you wouldn't have a healer choose how the regenerate mana or a pally decide how they regenerate holy power right? This tier has already been mathed out as well. You are always going to pick RC if you are frost and RC if you are unholy just like it is on live. They need to go back to how it is on live currently. Make BT baseline and assign RC and RE back to frost and unholy respectively. Then replace these with 3 more interesting talents.

    Tier 90 - This is a completely useless tier, even for PvP players. Anyone who has played their death knight for more than 5 minutes can notice that these uninteresting 90 talents are just updates to talents we already have on live. Remorseless winter is actually just hungering cold except worse because of the ramp of time as where HC just had a 1.5s cast. Desecrated Ground is just desecration from the unholy tree on live except we are immune to CC which again isn't really a big deal we need to be mobile. Mass Death grip is cool, but again is auto choice for tanks. DpS could live without either of the other two.

    Now lets talk about glyphs.

    It has been discussed already that death knights just aren't getting any good interesting entertaining glyphs unlike other classes. Lets talk about mandatory glyphs.

    Glyph of AMS - Why would you not want this as tank or dps in PvE and PvP.

    Glyph of VP - I thought we were trying to avoid straight up bonuses to spells in MoP? All tanks will take this just like they do now on live

    Every other glyph is just iterations of things we already have on live, just boring.

    ____

    Death Knights have been voicing their issues for a long time on the beta forums and none of the issues have been addressed aside from number issues. Please give us interesting mechanics and abilities. Druids, warlocks, hunters, Spriests, and shamans have received borderline class overhauls while we are left with crappy talents we already have on live. Please Devs, fix us.
    Last edited by GamerLCD; 2012-08-01 at 09:25 AM.

  2. #2
    DA is more mandatory than chilblains. PVPing without chilblains will suck less than PVPing without DA in almost all situations.

    Blood Tap was made worthless a week or two ago when it was put on the GCD.

    Remorseless Winter is much better than current Hungering Cold.

    Desecrated Ground has nothing to do with current Desecration at all -- did you even read what it does?

    Glyph of Outbreak is a DPS loss.

    Glyph of AMS is good, but there are lots of other good ones.

  3. #3
    Field Marshal Sooprbamp's Avatar
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    There are no situations ever where a dps would want to use LB in raid situation especially if you are an undead like me.
    You do know that undead players are still under humanoid classification...?

  4. #4
    As much as I hate to be that guy, but all of this is strictly opinionated.
    I personally like RB in tier 1 for unholy with the change to reaping and buff to BB.
    As a Blood main, if purgatory is mandatory for you to stay alive, you need new healers. Lichborne is still a great heal and could be viable like it was in t11. Don't count AMZ out yet.
    Death's advance is pretty much the best in it's tier for pve. I was excited to see it.
    Your view of the healing tier is completely opinionated. I personally don't like conversion, but all 3 could work.
    I do agree lvl75 tier is retarded and i hate blizz for this tier.
    lvl 90 tir: see lvl75 tier.

  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral Xarganthos's Avatar
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    maybe he's refering to the new undead racial.

  6. #6
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    I have to agree on something. Even if taste is to be taken into consideration, when it comes to our talents and glyphs; one can't really say that any of the available choices are really exciting. When looking at it with the most objective eye, some may even argue that a few of the talents don't even belong on the tier they've been placed. (Plague leech ? AMZ/Purgatory for tanks ?) Hell, there's even a tier that noone wants and shouldn't even be here in the first place. (Rune regen) I'm not even speaking about T90 that won't bring much use to PvE.

    When I look at my paladin's tree, I'm excited about almost every tier. Looking at what's available, I have to think and weight pros and cons because the most part of my tree is really good. I mean, I can literally stay here and read all the spell tooltips and say to myself "Woah, this one is awesome. No wait, this one is ever better. Damn, what do I pick ?!"
    (Said paladin tree : http://mop.wowhead.com/mists-of-pand...t-calculator#l)
    Everything is also very well organized. You get to pick between 3 ways to enhance your movement, 3 ways for CC, utility, and even big cooldowns. There's nothing such as choosing BETWEEN mobility and cc. (Death's Advance vs Chillblains and Asphyxiate)

    I really think they can do better than this. If they started by removing that god awful rune regen tier, there would a lot of room for tons of amazing utility, mobility or whatever.
    Last edited by Asheriah; 2012-07-30 at 07:34 AM.

  7. #7
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Blizzard seems quite intent on taking player feedback on the new talent system, it seems. I would suggest posting this on the actual WoW forums, especially if you can post it with the supposed math to back it up. Posting it here on MMO champion has very little chance of accomplishing much of anything, unfortunately.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
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    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  8. #8
    i possibly read the OP wrong, but you seemed to claim that 9% of choices were mandatory, but then gave examples for different specs for each "mandatory" point . . .

    this is for pvp, this is for tanking etc . . .

  9. #9
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    I tried to make a new talent tree that would look closer to what paladins get.

    http://mop-talent-grid-maker.appspot...&gridId=250001

    Please tell me what you think about it. There are a few informations to read under the tree before checking the talents. (Just to put yourself in the context)

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Mehman's Avatar
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    Undeads are still classified as humanoid. Being able to cut your healers some slack is nice.
    DA is better than Chillblains.
    Blood wants Conversion. Sure, we loose some damage, but it's a crap ton of healing.
    Desecrated grounds is desecration? I'm sorry, but no it's not.


  11. #11
    Brewmaster Helden's Avatar
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    Desecrated Ground removes all effects that cause you to lose control of your character and makes you immune to those effects while you stay in the effect for 10 seconds, removing the need for a PvP trinket.

    Asphyxiate acts as a silence if they are immune to stuns.

    Just pointing those out.

    There is room for improvement in our talents, lots of room, but its nowhere near as bad as the OP makes out.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehman View Post
    Undeads are still classified as humanoid. Being able to cut your healers some slack is nice.
    DA is better than Chillblains.
    Blood wants Conversion. Sure, we loose some damage, but it's a crap ton of healing.
    Desecrated grounds is desecration? I'm sorry, but no it's not.
    Conversion is bad. DK's ability flow is to use runes to generate RP to get runes back. As blood if you use runes to generate RP to use conversion then you miss out on getting more runes to get more DS' which prevents getting more runic power.... You get the idea. It's a very short sighted talent.

  13. #13
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehman View Post
    Undeads are still classified as humanoid. Being able to cut your healers some slack is nice.
    DA is better than Chillblains.
    Blood wants Conversion. Sure, we loose some damage, but it's a crap ton of healing.
    Desecrated grounds is desecration? I'm sorry, but no it's not.
    As a tank, I don't want conversion. It's killing my SoB procs and all my runic power, which I precisely need to refresh runes and get more mitigation. Healing is good, taking less damage is always better when it comes to raiding.

    Also, if you're in a dire need of urgent healing, conversion isn't the way to go. 3% health per second isn't immediate healing. Death Pact is, and 50% of a tank's health bar is going to be a fudgeload !

    We don't believe in your Horde or your Alliance. We only believe in undeath.

  14. #14
    Math out the choices all you want but unless Patchwerk makes a stunning return in MoP, it won't mean dick. The choices are actual choices. There will be better ones in each fight, but I can't see many talents in there that wouldn't have been useful at some point in Cata.

    Every time I see someone list the "obvious only choice", I always find that my own choices would have been different...

    In any case, it's certainly better than what we have now. 30-odd mandatory points with a few "choices" that are all minor, and are only taken to get down to the next tier of points.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Haros View Post
    Conversion is bad. DK's ability flow is to use runes to generate RP to get runes back. As blood if you use runes to generate RP to use conversion then you miss out on getting more runes to get more DS' which prevents getting more runic power.... You get the idea. It's a very short sighted talent.
    All of the Rune regeneration effects grant 0.4 rune per ability. Death Strike requires 2 runes. To get 1 free DS, you need to spend 2 / 0.4 * 30 (Rune Strike) = 150 RP. Conversion would have netted you (150 - 24) * 0.003 = 37.8% health. Can you necessarily assume the new DS would always grant you more than 40% healing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    As a tank, I don't want conversion. It's killing my SoB procs and all my runic power, which I precisely need to refresh runes and get more mitigation. Healing is good, taking less damage is always better when it comes to raiding.
    Scent of Blood is based off of auto attacks only? Unless you get more than 5 stacks of SoB before you Death Strike, you won't be wasting SoB?
    Last edited by yurano; 2012-07-30 at 10:37 AM.

  16. #16
    Brewmaster Alanar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    I tried to make a new talent tree that would look closer to what paladins get.

    http://mop-talent-grid-maker.appspot...&gridId=250001

    Please tell me what you think about it. There are a few informations to read under the tree before checking the talents. (Just to put yourself in the context)
    the tooltip of plague leach is very confusing.. the tier with movements increase is not realy needed.. more like a ripoff of other talents. I hate abillities that are not working on my self. Plus i dont like long cooldowns.

    Putting Lichborn in the healing tier made it so u nerfed the general healing of dk's. So dont like it. Do u feel our healing is to much?
    Why u have like .. 3 or so abillities wich says: The death Knight may not benefit from this? Just to bring something to the raid... U are clearly a pver. As a pvper.. i dislike the general idea of ur talent tree.

    I am sorry bro, talents tree for me seems pointless. Maybe some one els likes it.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2012-07-30 at 10:43 AM.


  17. #17
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    All of the Rune regeneration effects grant 0.4 rune per ability. Death Strike requires 2 runes. To get 1 free DS, you need to spend 2 / 0.4 * 30 (Rune Strike) = 150 RP. Conversion would have netted you (150 - 24) * 0.003 = 37.8% health. Can you necessarily assume the new DS would always grant you more than 40% healing?
    Take in consideration the fact that you will also get an absorbtion shield with death strike. Under great pressure and with Seal of Blood procs, you can get considerable healing. Combined with the shield, you will probably be easier to keep alive since in the end, you'll take less damage and require less healing.

    We don't believe in your Horde or your Alliance. We only believe in undeath.

  18. #18
    Look I haven't read it all in detail, but I just want to remind everyone that Death Knights typically suck hardest at the start of the expansion, then end up running away with power at the end. In Wrath we were ridiculously overpowered in beta and nerfed pretty much every patch until we finally leveled out, then we came back strong in ICC fights, particular since Wrath raids were all about stamina-stacking and DK's high health and multiple cooldowns and Vamp Blood did well.

    In Cata we got boned/shafted by the Death Strike healing change, that that "spikeyness" became our legend and the bane of primadonna healers. But now at the end of Cata, we are running through heroics in DPS gear and stacking rolling absorbs even through massive attacks.

    So fine, Mists will fuck things up, make it all wonky again. That's fine. I can wait for the eventual fun. I always do.

  19. #19
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appel View Post
    the tooltip of plague leach is very confusing.. the tier with movements increase is not realy needed.. more like a ripoff of other talents. I hate abillities that are not working on my self. Plus i dont like long cooldowns.

    Putting Lichborn in the same tier as Death packt made it so u nerfed the general healing of dk's. So dont like it. Do u feel our healing is to much? i dont think so.

    I am sorry bro, talents tree for me seems pointless. Maybe some one els likes it.
    What are you not getting with plague leech ?

    I feel the tier movement is actually needed. We have shit mobility, we always did. When I see paladins running at 70% speed, monk rolling everywhere, warriors and bears charging, I feel my lame little +30% increase to running speed is really sub-par. Besides, I didn't affect the DK with the new raid buffs because I don't think we need more CDs. Paladins don't get to divine guardian themselves and it only seems fair.

    I don't see what you're complaining about, you get mobility AND cc.

    I didn't nerf healing, death pact is baseline. You get to choose one kind of healing, and you get lots of utility back. Did you read the notes under the tree ?

    So fine, Mists will fuck things up, make it all wonky again. That's fine. I can wait for the eventual fun. I always do.
    We were a new class in Wotlk though. This is probably why we had to be nerfed. What's wrong with learning from your mistakes ? I really think Blizzard should be able to do that now.
    Last edited by Asheriah; 2012-07-30 at 10:48 AM.

    We don't believe in your Horde or your Alliance. We only believe in undeath.

  20. #20
    All of this QQ...

    You should just go reroll right now to some dress wearing, nancy-boy class.

    Infracted. Post constructively
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2012-07-30 at 01:26 PM.

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